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Old 01-23-2011, 05:31 PM   #29
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Thanks everyone for your words of encouragement. It really helped me get back out there today and re-evaluate the frame. I wire wheeled the rust and it is bad in a few places but overall I think it is fixable.

Colin: I will be very grateful for those plans to do the Torsion Conversion.

I measured the frame and it is 4 1/4" not 3" and the belly pan was put on with 5 pieces (1 across the front, 2 in the middle, 1 over the axle and 1 across the rear.)

I am thinking about doing what Colin suggested about the extra steel from end to end. But since it is already 4 1/4" should I just put angle iron on the inside of the frame? or make the frame 5 1/4" and put the steel 1x1 down the bottom? I would like the extra height and space for tanks.

Tomorrow I start to call welders and see about a welding kit of my own to do the cross members.
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Old 01-24-2011, 01:24 PM   #30
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Today's update and questions:

I had a welder come out to talk about prices. He figures $600 plus the cost of the steel. I have no idea right now how much the steel cross members will cost to have fabricated. Is their somewhere to buy them cheaper than fabricating?

List of things need to be fix:
replace 5 cross members
Add 1" angle bar to all the other cross members (Make the same width as the frame)
Add 1.5x1.5 square bar length of both side of frame (for added support and frame height)
Replace the coupler
Replace several outrigger
Relocate 2 outriggers for tandem axle upgrade
Add angle iron for the door step
Cut off old axle
Add Torsion Axle mounting plate.

At some point I may find welding equipment but right not I dont trust my own welds for the coupler and axle brackets. So we will wait and see how much the steel is going to cost.
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Old 01-24-2011, 02:21 PM   #31
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Hi Nick,
Just use 2" X 2" X 1/8" steel angle & weld them together in the shape of a "C". This is very cheap to do & it ends up much stronger that the original crossmembers.
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Old 01-25-2011, 05:47 PM   #32
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Black and Gray tanks

Ok from 1 issue to the next. Now that I have the welder lined up and figured out. I now need to figure out the waste water tanks so I can move what I need to when the welder shows.

I really do not understand how these things get hooked up. A rear bath make more sense than the center wet bath that I am putting in. I can not find any photos on how it this is setup.

My frame depth will be 5.5".

First question: If I get 2 vintage trailer supply tanks for the gray water how do I need to connect the 2-15gal together to make them 30gal? I would assume that I would use the center 1.5" holes to connect the 2. However, does the second tank have anything flow in it or does it act as a reserve. I was going to have the shower and sinks go into the 1-15gal and use the other 15gal as a reserve that fills through the center connection.

Second question: Where would I find a 7-10 gallon black tank that can be setup on the one side of the frame so that I can get the grey water pipe to the front?

Would there be something wrong with having the outlets setup infront of the front street side tire? Will this get easily damaged from curbs?

Any links and/or photos would be greatly appreciated. I tend to learn the most through photos.
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:56 PM   #33
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Hey Nick,
Question #1:
The grey tanks from VTS come with one outlet fitting & if you couple two tanks, one of the tanks will be facing backwards. This allows you to connect the two together. Make sure you use a flexible coupler in this connection. Steve at VTS will spin weld the additional fittings necessary to make this system work correctly however you will need to supply him with some sort of drawing. You will need another exit fitting coming out of one of the two tanks that will connect to the black/grey valve assy. You will also need at least one inlet fitting on the top of each tank. Make sure you position these so they don't interfere with cabinetry. These inlets should be connected together above the floor & routed to the galley sink & to the vent stack. This will allow water to flow into both tanks at the same time & allow air to be displaced out of the tanks as they fill. This set up will avoid creating an air lock in either tank. The shower drain will not drain directly into either of the tanks. It is T'd into the pipe running from the tank outlet to the valve assy. Try to position both of these tanks near the center of the trailer ie above the axle/s as it will minimize the "polar moment of inertia" that could induce sway while towing if full.

Question #2:
Black tank source? There are quite a few suppliers of generic RV black tanks out there. I get mine from Icon Technologies in Winkler Manitoba. I can't remember their web address but just google them. I typically install black tanks above the floor & use a low profile toilet. This set up allows you to install the black tank valve directly below the tank & T the grey water into the side of the valve assembly. Your bellypan will remain flush & appear just like it did in the early 50's but have all the advantages of modern RV plumbing systems. VTS has all of these parts as well. The nice thing about the Icon tanks is that you can install the inlet fitting wherever you like, assuming you purchase a tank with a blank top & the necessary fitting. They sell regrind ABS so you can make a slurry allowing you to chemically weld the fitting to the tank, just like they do it. The black tank will require a plywood cover along with water proof covering material available through Big Box stores. I also use Icon's generic shower pans as "wet baths" can easily be configured to suit their sizing.
Are you having fun yet?
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:41 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick6930 View Post
Ok from 1 issue to the next. Now that I have the welder lined up and figured out. I now need to figure out the waste water tanks so I can move what I need to when the welder shows.

I really do not understand how these things get hooked up. A rear bath make more sense than the center wet bath that I am putting in. I can not find any photos on how it this is setup.

My frame depth will be 5.5".

First question: If I get 2 vintage trailer supply tanks for the gray water how do I need to connect the 2-15gal together to make them 30gal? I would assume that I would use the center 1.5" holes to connect the 2. However, does the second tank have anything flow in it or does it act as a reserve. I was going to have the shower and sinks go into the 1-15gal and use the other 15gal as a reserve that fills through the center connection.

Second question: Where would I find a 7-10 gallon black tank that can be setup on the one side of the frame so that I can get the grey water pipe to the front?

Would there be something wrong with having the outlets setup infront of the front street side tire? Will this get easily damaged from curbs?

Any links and/or photos would be greatly appreciated. I tend to learn the most through photos.
Nick,
I'll try to answer some of your questions, because I am also trying to figure out tanks for my '55 Safari and have been puzzling over this challenge for weeks (can't do any outdoor work in Michigan this time of year).

With regard to two VTS tanks as a gray, I doubt you will be able to set one as a reserve if they are both below the floor unless you put a valve in between them and only open it when needed.

You will need to make sure both tanks are vented, but they could combine into a single vent pipe going through the roof, or you could vent one and then add a little air crossover between them at the top of the tanks.

As for tying them together for water flow/leveling, you could just tie both drain pipes together below the tanks/fame, but before the dump valve. The tanks will self level if they are properly vented, so no need to have a direct side to side pipe connecting them, although you could. I personally a debating bringing my gray tank drain pipe out a side/end or bottom of the tanks, but either should work. I am leaning toward a bottom drain at the moment.

As for an above the floor black tank (at least thats what I think you are proposing), there are many available from various on-line companies and some that probably don't have their tanks listed on line. One company I am likely to purchase some or all of my (black, gray, and fresh) tanks from is RV Surplus in Elkhart, IN. They seem to have a good selection of special order tanks and their prices are better than some of the others you will find. I am sure other people may have other suggestions.

But back to that above floor black tank, I think a bottom drain tank would be easier to fit than than an end or side drain. You can find bottom drain tanks with sizes from 3 gallons to much more than a dozen gallons, but if you are going on top of the floor, you probably need to limit the tank vertical height to 6 or 7 inches so that even a "shorty" toilet does not end up being too high.

If I am misunderstanding and you are proposing a below the floor black tank outboard of the main frame rails, you won't get too much volume unless you sacrifice outriggers, and I wouldn't recommend that. You are likely into custom tank and mounting provisions if you try that.

Regarding having the dump connection just ahead of the street side wheel, that is common and most 25' Airstream built since 1985 have had their dump connection in that location. I used to have an '85 25' Airstream with this setup. If you avoid curbs (and if you can't maybe trailering isn't for you ), there are no issues except sometimes needing a little longer dump hose when using a 3-point hookup camp site.

To put your mind at ease a little, for the tanks I am adding to my front kitchen/front bath '55 Safari, the tanks and dump connection are going to end up much closer to the front of the trailer (maybe 4 feet back from the front skin) than to the front of the tire, but I am not worried about damage.
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Old 02-02-2011, 09:24 PM   #35
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You guys really are helping out a lot on getting the idea of how this thing has to go. It does get a little over whelming but when I read the responses it really reminds me that I can do it and that I am very happy doing it. It really is a lot of funso far J. I am sorry that I was not very clear with a few things.

First to clarify,

Quote:
Originally Posted by 66Overlander View Post
With regard to two VTS tanks as a gray, I doubt you will be able to set one as a reserve if they are both below the floor unless you put a valve in between them and only open it when needed.
I misused the term reserve. I would have both tied together like Colin suggested in the center. However, I was thinking that the waste water could flow into only 1 tank and that water takes the path of least resistance it would nature fill the other tank (as long as there was proper venting in both tank.) I thought this would be a possible benefit because any solids like food and hair would only go into the one tank closest to the drainage value.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 66Overlander View Post
If I am misunderstanding and you are proposing a below the floor black tank outboard of the main frame rails, you won't get too much volume unless you sacrifice outriggers, and I wouldn't recommend that. You are likely into custom tank and mounting provisions if you try that.
I am planning on doing a below the floor black tank but on the inside of the ladder frame. I am going to move the toilet from the outer wall to the opposite side of the sink closest to the hall. The reason being I am going to add a 2nd axel to make it a tandem axel and the toilet will not fit there any longer. I have chosen not to have the tank on top because the space in the wet bath is getting very tight and I have big feet. So any floor space saved will help me in showering in that little space.

The black tank I ordered is from www.icondirect.com it is an 8 gallon 22.5X18.5X6 with a end spigot (my frame is 4 and I am adding a 1.5X1.5 steel to the bottom of the frame for support, tank space and overall height.) I chose this one because I think it will have the drainage spigot in the ideal location, in front of the front axle. I can then run the gray water from the 2 VTS tanks to the black tank spigot to wash out the stinky slinky. I really hope 8 gallons will be enough. I plan on only having a hand sprayer to rinse the bowl until it is time to dump then I fill the tank up. That is what we do in our Argosy and it has worked very well for boon docking 4-5 days

I tried to order the tanks from VTS but they were out of stock so I will have to wait for that. But while talking to Steve he gave the idea of running the kitchen sink into the piping from the tank to the dump valve. The water would still go to the tank, without having to run the plumbing behind the shower stall. That would also help with some of the food debris that gets washed down.

Prior to ordering the gray tanks I do have a few questions:

Should the drainage spigot for the gray tank be on the bottom or would a side drain be OK? If a bottom drainage would it be on both tanks?

Where should the shower and bath sink drain into the gray tank? From the top of the tank or from the side? Steve seemed to recommend draining the shower into the side of the tank.

The vents for the tank I would assume will be on the top of the tanks, go through the floor and out the roof. Correct?

As always everyones opinions and suggestions are welcome.


Here is the Black tank I ordered:
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:54 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick6930 View Post
I misused the term reserve. I would have both tied together like Colin suggested in the center. However, I was thinking that the waste water could flow into only 1 tank and that water takes the path of least resistance it would nature fill the other tank (as long as there was proper venting in both tank.) I thought this would be a possible benefit because any solids like food and hair would only go into the one tank closest to the drainage value.
Yes, we are saying the same thing about letting gravity level both tanks. Solids, I think would tend to collect in whichever tank the inlet pipes connect to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick6930 View Post
I am planning on doing a below the floor black tank but on the inside of the ladder frame. I am going to move the toilet from the outer wall to the opposite side of the sink closest to the hall. The reason being I am going to add a 2nd axel to make it a tandem axel and the toilet will not fit there any longer. I have chosen not to have the tank on top because the space in the wet bath is getting very tight and I have big feet. So any floor space saved will help me in showering in that little space.
I understand the limited floor space concern since I have the same issue with my '55 Safari bath. I can't put the tank below the floor, so I am planning to extend it under the dinette bench to get increased volume.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick6930 View Post
The black tank I ordered is from www.icondirect.com it is an 8 gallon 22.5X18.5X6 with a end spigot (my frame is 4 and I am adding a 1.5X1.5 steel to the bottom of the frame for support, tank space and overall height.) I chose this one because I think it will have the drainage spigot in the ideal location, in front of the front axle. I can then run the gray water from the 2 VTS tanks to the black tank spigot to wash out the stinky slinky. I really hope 8 gallons will be enough. I plan on only having a hand sprayer to rinse the bowl until it is time to dump then I fill the tank up. That is what we do in our Argosy and it has worked very well for boon docking 4-5 days
I see that tank offered on eBay from time to time. It should work OK, but I'd personally like more than 8 gallons. I think I have a 13 gallon black tank picked out for my Safari.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick6930 View Post
I tried to order the tanks from VTS but they were out of stock so I will have to wait for that. But while talking to Steve he gave the idea of running the kitchen sink into the piping from the tank to the dump valve. The water would still go to the tank, without having to run the plumbing behind the shower stall. That would also help with some of the food debris that gets washed down.
I like the idea of connecting the sink drain to the gray tank discharge pipe. I had been considering this idea of my Safari, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick6930 View Post
Prior to ordering the gray tanks I do have a few questions:

Should the drainage spigot for the gray tank be on the bottom or would a side drain be OK? If a bottom drainage would it be on both tanks?
I think either should work and the outlet on the VTS tank is located as low as possible on the side so that it can be the drain. I still like the bottom drain idea, however, and may go that way myself. I can't fit the VTS tank in the frame bay I want to use on my Safari, but I've found a 4" high 11 gallon tank that should work, or else I'll resort to having a custom tank made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick6930 View Post
Where should the shower and bath sink drain into the gray tank? From the top of the tank or from the side? Steve seemed to recommend draining the shower into the side of the tank.
I think most newer trailers have an elevated floor in the shower so that the drain pipe can go into the top of the tank. If your shower floor will be at plywood level, you will have no choice but to go into the side of the tank. I would wonder about the possibility of sloshing tank contents coming out of the shower drain if you have to move the trailer with a fairly full gray tank. I am not planing to convert my Safari to a wet bath (at this time anyway), so I no longer need to determine the answer for my application.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick6930 View Post
The vents for the tank I would assume will be on the top of the tanks, go through the floor and out the roof. Correct?
Correct. If your tank positions allow, you should be able to tie the black and gray tank vents together above floor level so that you only have one pipe going through the roof.

Good Luck!
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Old 02-27-2011, 06:20 PM   #37
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Winter Nursery

Boy time is flying this winter, usually it drags on for me. A few weeks ago my wife and I found out that we are going to have a little boy. So being very excited I kicked it into high gear getting the nursery done while it was too cold to work outside. I built a few wall cabinets for storage and changing are and we brought in a fantastic artist to paint a mural of an idea that I had. Here are some of the photos. The Airstreams turned out great. Her website is Sommers End Originals Michele (Erickson) Sommers... Front Royal, VA Custom Artwork * Murals * Portraits * Calligraphy
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Old 02-27-2011, 06:36 PM   #38
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So this weekend I spent more time fabricating things than working on the Cruiser. I made my first attempt at welding (I just bought a mig welder this week.) I was surprised at how well I did for a first attempt. I found some photos of Colin's rotisserie and made one up of my own. it took a few hours and I got to test it out today. I had to move the the frame to the driveway to work on because the grass down by the barn it too muddy and the welding guy cant get his truck down there. So I thought if I used a engine hoist and my tractor I could lift the frame and it work out great. HOWEVER, I could not get the frame to stay flipped. I would get it flipped over and the weight would force it back to an upright position. I spent hours trying to figure out why and I could not. Does anyone know why? Is it because of the axles? I ended up taking the axle off and then I could flip the frame without any issues. However, if I can not figure out how to keep it flipped with axles I may have a problem when I put the new axles on.

Te plan right now it to install the new axles and then take them back off to do the underside and then reinstall them. Any easier options?

Next on the list is to get the steel to fix the frame, tank placement, weld, and paint with POR15 and install.

Any feed back is greatly appreciated.
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Old 02-27-2011, 07:01 PM   #39
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Hi Nick, Congratulations to you and your wife, the mural looks great!!! Thanks for the info on the tanks, I haven't done anything with the tanks or plumbing let but keep reading about it. It is one of those things I will put off as long as I can, sometime this summer I will get to them.
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Old 04-01-2011, 04:07 PM   #40
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Boy time sure does fly, I can not believe another month has gone by. After trying to schedule the welder for the past month he finally got out to work last weekend. Just about everything is welded and ready for axles. I still have a few small things to weld but I decided to buy a small 140 welder and I am getting the small stuff myself.

I had planned on using a local guy to install the axles. However, now that the frame does not have any wheels I have no way to get it to him. I though no problem I will just rent a 20' trailer to bring it down. But noone in the area rents them. So I looked at the frame again and I think I can do the axles myself.

So Monday morning I will be calling Collin for a quote and my order. Get ready for more questions about installing a tandem axle. By the time they arrive I should be done with the POR-15.
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Old 05-27-2011, 11:36 AM   #41
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Axles have arrived

Ok, here is an update. I ordered my Axis axles from Colin last month and they arrived at the shipper facility the other day. Colin was great to deal with and kept me updated on the progress the entire time. My awesome 9 month pregnant wife volunteered to go get them for me (1.5 hour drive each way) so I could do some work on the frame this weekend. I am hoping to actually get something done this weekend (fingers crossed, no other farm chores take priority.) I only have a few more welds, POR-15, Axles and I can get the frame out of the drive. Which is the reason I think she was so willing to make the drive, that and the freight facility is next to the Hagerstown Outlet Mall and my sister in-law is in town. This could be a costly error in planning.

Question Time:

When planning on installing the torflex axles where there were spring axles, I will need to cut the slots and drill holes for the axles. What exactly do I measure off of to make sure the axles are aligned properly? I have read the coupler but what part? The nose, the center or do I use the tongue jack as a reference? What is my variance for error 1/16" or 1/2" or even less? I will strive to get is perfect but would like to know so I dont waste a bunch of time trying to redo it if I am off by 1/16"
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Old 05-27-2011, 11:53 AM   #42
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Measure

Nick,

Pick something dead center and use that to measure both sides.. make them the same.. as close as possible... I can tell you mine is way off, and if yours are the same once completed.. you'll be blowing tires.. mine is off not from doing the axles but from putting on a new coupler...

Rob
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