Looking at buying a 1976 28' Argosy

[Bex]

There is also the use of weight distribution bars that might help decrease the front end weight. Not sure how much they might help.
Perhaps this thread should be moved to the towing section?

Bex

[overlander64]

Greetings newsgauger!

Originally Posted by newsgauger

Hi rostam,

Like the tilte says, I'm no expert, but if you look at pictures from the 70's of vehicles pulling Airstreams/Argosys, they weren't 1-ton trucks they were family cars.

I am sure they handled the loaded weight just fine and took those families all over North America without any real problems. And, back then they didn't have any of the high tech hitches and weight distribution systems that are on today's market.

If you error on the side of conservative, I am sure you will be just fine.

Chris

PS Happy Halloween!

The typical tow vehicles during the production run of first generation Argosys would have been full-size family automobiles . . . but the gradual move toward Suburbans and light trucks began as full-perimeter frames and large big-block V8s disappeared from the the equipment lists for US full-size family automobiles. Basically, some of the following would have been typical of tow vehicles utilized during the 1970-1980 time frame:

• Pre 1976 full-size GM with 454, 455, or 500 Cubic Inch V8s. These would have included Chevrolet Bel Air, Impala, and Caprice; Pontiac Catalina, Bonneville, and Grandville; Buick LeSabre, Electra 225, and Park Avenue; Oldsmobile Delta 88, and 98; Cadillac DeVille, Fleetwood and Eldorado. Beginning in 1976, the GM full-size cars were downsized (other than certain Cadillacs and the Oldsmobile Toronado), and the maximum motor size was reduced to 403 cubic inches - - and that was only available in senior full-size cars like the Buick Park Avenue, and Oldsmobile 98.
• Pre 1979 full-size Ford/Mercury/Lincolns with the 460 Cubic Inch V8. A 1978 Ford LTD with the 460 V8 was the tow vehicle of choice for the original owner of my 1978 Argosy Minuet. During the 1970s, the original owners of my 1964 Overlander towed first with a 1970 Mercury Monterey coupe with the 429 V8 then switched to a 1975 Oldsmobile 98 with the 455 V8.
• Pre 1976 Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge with 440 Cubic Inch V8. These could includ such cars as Chrysler Newport, New Yorker, and Imperial; Dodge Polara, Monaco, Grand Monaco; Plymouth Fury, Sport Fury.

As the 1970s progressed and emissions controls became more restrictive along with pressure for EPA fuel economy ratings, the family automobile began the evolution that made is far less adaptable as a tow vehicle. The large, big block V8s were the first to disappear, followed by greater cuts to the wheelbase of the typical family cars, and finally the switch to unit body construction and front wheel drive. During this time period the availability of differential ratings suitable for towing also declined . . . the 3.23 or 3.73 ratios that were the preferred level became unavailable or were greatly limited in availability in the typical family cars. The advent of front wheel drive also impacted towing use as well since it is usually cost prohibitive to change the final drive ratio in a front wheel drive, and it is also a bit more challenging to configure a weight distributing hitch for a front wheel drive vehicle.

I am not a fan of pickup trucks, and that is one reason that I maintain a 1999 Suburban as well as a 1975 Cadillac Eldorado as my tow vehicles. The Suburban has the capability to tow either of my trailers anywhere I choose to travel, but the Cadillac must avoid mountain grades with the Overlander. The limitation of the Cadillac isn't its frame or 500 cubic inch motor, rather, it is the 2.70 final drive ratio of its front wheel drive . . . and the only other available ratio is 3.07 with an estimated cost of $2,500 to make the change . . . and even then it wouldn't be enought of an improvement to allow towing the Overlander in the mountains.

I have also had good luck with my long-time tow vehicle, a 1965 Dodge Coronet 500 Convertible Coupe with the 383 Cubic Inch HO V8 and 3.90 differential gears. Even with its unit body consruction it handled either of my trailers with ease. I started towing with it in 1980, and found a very experienced hitch builder who followed Chrysler's directions for fabricting a weight disributing receiver hitch for the 1960s/1970s Chrysler products.

During the time family sedans could be found with the big block V8s, the trailer tow ratings were generally maxxed out between 6,000 and 8,000 pounds depending upon manufacturer and model year. Manufacturers didn't actually publish trailer towing limits for their sedans until sometime in the 1960s . . . an evidence of this is the formula that was provided in Airstream literature that advised the consumer to divide the horsepower of his/her automobile by the combined weight of car and trailer to determine HP/pound . . . then that result could be compared to a table that would indicate the figure's placement between unacceptable and exceptional performance.

Kevin

[rostam]

Originally Posted by overlander64

Greetings newsgauger!



The typical tow vehicles during the production run of first generation Argosys would have been full-size family automobiles . . . but the gradual move toward Suburbans and light trucks began as full-perimeter frames and large big-block V8s disappeared from the the equipment lists for US full-size family automobiles. Basically, some of the following would have been typical of tow vehicles utilized during the 1970-1980 time frame:

• Pre 1976 full-size GM with 454, 455, or 500 Cubic Inch V8s. These would have included Chevrolet Bel Air, Impala, and Caprice; Pontiac Catalina, Bonneville, and Grandville; Buick LeSabre, Electra 225, and Park Avenue; Oldsmobile Delta 88, and 98; Cadillac DeVille, Fleetwood and Eldorado. Beginning in 1976, the GM full-size cars were downsized (other than certain Cadillacs and the Oldsmobile Toronado), and the maximum motor size was reduced to 403 cubic inches - - and that was only available in senior full-size cars like the Buick Park Avenue, and Oldsmobile 98.
• Pre 1979 full-size Ford/Mercury/Lincolns with the 460 Cubic Inch V8. A 1978 Ford LTD with the 460 V8 was the tow vehicle of choice for the original owner of my 1978 Argosy Minuet. During the 1970s, the original owners of my 1964 Overlander towed first with a 1970 Mercury Monterey coupe with the 429 V8 then switched to a 1975 Oldsmobile 98 with the 455 V8.
• Pre 1976 Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge with 440 Cubic Inch V8. These could includ such cars as Chrysler Newport, New Yorker, and Imperial; Dodge Polara, Monaco, Grand Monaco; Plymouth Fury, Sport Fury.

As the 1970s progressed and emissions controls became more restrictive along with pressure for EPA fuel economy ratings, the family automobile began the evolution that made is far less adaptable as a tow vehicle. The large, big block V8s were the first to disappear, followed by greater cuts to the wheelbase of the typical family cars, and finally the switch to unit body construction and front wheel drive. During this time period the availability of differential ratings suitable for towing also declined . . . the 3.23 or 3.73 ratios that were the preferred level became unavailable or were greatly limited in availability in the typical family cars. The advent of front wheel drive also impacted towing use as well since it is usually cost prohibitive to change the final drive ratio in a front wheel drive, and it is also a bit more challenging to configure a weight distributing hitch for a front wheel drive vehicle.

I am not a fan of pickup trucks, and that is one reason that I maintain a 1999 Suburban as well as a 1975 Cadillac Eldorado as my tow vehicles. The Suburban has the capability to tow either of my trailers anywhere I choose to travel, but the Cadillac must avoid mountain grades with the Overlander. The limitation of the Cadillac isn't its frame or 500 cubic inch motor, rather, it is the 2.70 final drive ratio of its front wheel drive . . . and the only other available ratio is 3.07 with an estimated cost of $2,500 to make the change . . . and even then it wouldn't be enought of an improvement to allow towing the Overlander in the mountains.

I have also had good luck with my long-time tow vehicle, a 1965 Dodge Coronet 500 Convertible Coupe with the 383 Cubic Inch HO V8 and 3.90 differential gears. Even with its unit body consruction it handled either of my trailers with ease. I started towing with it in 1980, and found a very experienced hitch builder who followed Chrysler's directions for fabricting a weight disributing receiver hitch for the 1960s/1970s Chrysler products.

During the time family sedans could be found with the big block V8s, the trailer tow ratings were generally maxxed out between 6,000 and 8,000 pounds depending upon manufacturer and model year. Manufacturers didn't actually publish trailer towing limits for their sedans until sometime in the 1960s . . . an evidence of this is the formula that was provided in Airstream literature that advised the consumer to divide the horsepower of his/her automobile by the combined weight of car and trailer to determine HP/pound . . . then that result could be compared to a table that would indicate the figure's placement between unacceptable and exceptional performance.

Kevin

This post was super informative! Thanks a lot Kevin

[rostam]

Originally Posted by Bex

I agree that 900lbs is likely a high estimate but it doesn't alter the fact that your vehicle is likely still underpowered for the task. Yes, it will pull it, but you might not be too comfortable doing so. Only way to find out is to give it a go.
I read a piece somewhere regarding the vehicles of the 70's pulling these trailers around. Yes they did but many of those vehicles were 6-8 MPG behemoths that sat low to the ground and so had a low center of gravity, also very long wheelbase as well which also assists with towing (or so I have read) Additionally, safety was not looked at in the same way as it is today, folks (on the whole) drove slower but its likely the injuries/deaths by accident were higher. I would like to see the stats to back that up though, which is why I say "likely".

Bex

Thanks Bex,

I am not too concerned about TV being under powered, as it is rated at 7500#. Its Diesel and from what I have read online, it handles 7500# fine. My problem was the 600# hitch weight. It seems if I have the water tank half full (or a third full), and load the trailer so more weight is on the axles or behind them, I would be able to go below 600#. The trailer's GVWR is 6200#, so 600# of hitch weight would be ~10% of the trailer weight, which seems acceptable (my TV manual says hitch weight should be 8% to 15% of the trailer weight).

I have 2 Q's now and I would appreciate everyone's input:

1) Should I be using WDH and sway bars? My understanding is that WDH is needed to level out the TV and trailer, and sway bars prevent trailer sways. My TV has air suspension so it levels the vehicle with the trailer itself. It also has built in sway control. Is there any other reason for using WDH and sway bars?

2) If I decide to use WDH and sway bars, do I need to consider their weight in the 600# hitch weight limit or not? Lets say the trailer hitch weight is 550# and the WDH and sway bar weigh 100#. Am I over the 600# limit or the WDH/sway bar weight is not used in calculation?

Thanks a lot!

[overlander64]

Greetings rostam!

Originally Posted by rostam

Thanks Bex,

I am not too concerned about TV being under powered, as it is rated at 7500#. Its Diesel and from what I have read online, it handles 7500# fine. My problem was the 600# hitch weight. It seems if I have the water tank half full (or a third full), and load the trailer so more weight is on the axles or behind them, I would be able to go below 600#. The trailer's GVWR is 6200#, so 600# of hitch weight would be ~10% of the trailer weight, which seems acceptable (my TV manual says hitch weight should be 8% to 15% of the trailer weight).

I have 2 Q's now and I would appreciate everyone's input:

1) Should I be using WDH and sway bars? My understanding is that WDH is needed to level out the TV and trailer, and sway bars prevent trailer sways. My TV has air suspension so it levels the vehicle with the trailer itself. It also has built in sway control. Is there any other reason for using WDH and sway bars?

Weight distribution serves two purposes. The first is to redistribute the hitch weight among the axles . . . front axle of tow vehicle . . . rear axle of tow vehicle . . . and trailer axle(s). The second is to provide level towing between tow vehicle and trailer. Sway can be "controlled" independently of weight distribution or integrated with the weight distribution hitch. I have been towing since 1980, and have adopted the Reese Strait-Line Hitch with Dual Cam Sway Control. The Strait-Line hitch has performed flawlessly for me for many miles so I haven't considered changing . . . and once adjusted for a particular tow vehicle/trailer combination, it doesn't require any tinkering. Personally, I would never return to the friction sway control bars that I utilized during my first year of towing.

Originally Posted by rostam

2) If I decide to use WDH and sway bars, do I need to consider their weight in the 600# hitch weight limit or not? Lets say the trailer hitch weight is 550# and the WDH and sway bar weigh 100#. Am I over the 600# limit or the WDH/sway bar weight is not used in calculation?

Thanks a lot!

Selecting the rating of the weight distribution hitch varies a little from brand to brand, and since I have experience with Reese, I will comment on that setup. Two considerations with the Strait-Line hitch are the loaded hitch weight of the trailer being towed as well as the tow vehicle and its ratings. In general, with the Reese Strait-Line, you go to the next lower weight rating weight distribution bar when utilizing a 3/4-ton or heavy-duty four-wheel drive tow vehicle. For instance, with my 6,100 pound Overlander (750 pound hitch weight), I utilize 600 pound weight distribution bars when towing with my '99 K2500 Suburban, but utilize 800 pound weight distribution bars when towing with my Cadillac. When towing my 3,100 pound Minuet 6.0 Metre (525 pound hitch weight), I utilize 350 pound weight distribution bars (from 1980s Reese Light-Weight Special Hitch) with the Suburban, and 600 pound weight distribution bars when towing with my Cadillac.

The theory behind utilizing lighter weight distribution bars when towing with a heavy duty tow vehicle is to permit enough flex in the bars to engage the Reese Dual Cam system, and to transfer the weight properly to the tow vehicle's front axle. The difference that switching from 1,000 pound weight distribution bars to the 600 pound weight distribution bars when towing with my K2500 Suburban is amazing . . . better ride for tow vehicle and trailer and no continuing damage to the trailer (popped rivets and stress-cracked panels on coach).

Good luck with your investigation!

Kevin

P.S.: My Cadillac has level-ride suspension as does my Oldsmobile Delta 88, and utilize the Reese Strait Line hitch when towing with either of them . . . it is, however, necesary to follow the manufacturers' recommendation regarding connecting the weight distribution hitch.

[newsgauger]

Hi rostam,

I, with the great help from DavidsonOverlander (Grant), towed my 1976 Argosy 28 (aka Kustom Koach) Centre Bath approximately 60 miles (100Km) with no problems.

My TV is a 2012 F150 4x4 5.0L V8 with Tow Package and according to Grant had lots of power when needed.

I am not too sure where you are in your planning process, but I would suggest you consider the Ford 1/2 ton product, if you are looking at anything 28' and under.

My 2-cents,
Chris

[rostam]

Originally Posted by newsgauger

Hi rostam,

I, with the great help from DavidsonOverlander (Grant), towed my 1976 Argosy 28 (aka Kustom Koach) Centre Bath approximately 60 miles (100Km) with no problems.

My TV is a 2012 F150 4x4 5.0L V8 with Tow Package and according to Grant had lots of power when needed.

I am not too sure where you are in your planning process, but I would suggest you consider the Ford 1/2 ton product, if you are looking at anything 28' and under.

My 2-cents,
Chris

Thanks for the info Chris. I appreciate your update.

I have read many positive posts about the new F150s. But I already have a TV (well, my wife drives it daily, but it will double as our tow vehicle when needed). Its a Benz GL 350 Bluetec. Its Diesel with 7500# towing capacity. Since a 1976 28ft Argosy has a GVWR of 6200# (dry weight is 4250#), I am fine when it comes to towing capacity. The GL's max tongue weight is only 600#
(this is the major limiting factor). The Argosy's dry hitch weight is 405# and I believe if I only go with a half full fresh water tank (which is located at the front of the trailer), the loaded hitch weight will be around 600# and I would be fine there (right at the limit though). If the tongue weight is 600#, with a 6000# trailer, I will have 10% of the weight on the tongue. With a 5500# trailer, I will have 11% of the weight on the tongue. Both are within the recommeneded 10% to 15% (thought the 10% is the minimum).


I seem to be within the limits, but I am concerned about stability and driving experience. I will not be using WDH and sway bars -- GL has air suspension and levels the TV and the trailer. It also has built in trailer sway control. So, WDH and sway bars seem redundant and just add more weight to the tongue, and I am at the limit there.

I guess the best way is to tow a trailer with similar specs and see how it feels (Buying the Argosy is a summer of 2013 plan). I plan to rent a trailer for a long weekend and see how it goes.

Best,