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Old 05-07-2013, 11:23 PM   #1
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Looking at a 1973 Argosy and need advice.

I ran across a deal that I might not be able to pass up and wanted to solicit some advice before I take the plunge.

I recently met an older couple that has what they believe is a 22' Argosy travel trailer. After doing some research (found pictures with the exact same layout) it looks like a 1973 model. The trailer seems to be fairly solid with little in the way of damage but it is showing its age and has some issues.

The trailer currently does not have a title and was sold eight years ago with a bill of sale in New Mexico. The current owner is trying to get it titled in our state so we can decide the best way to proceed.

Currently the trailer does not have anything working in it. The furnace does not work, the refrigerator does not work, the out side lights do not work, the inside lights do not work, the tires are shot and the condition of the plumbing is unknown. Stove does work.

On the flip side the out side has only a few minor dents, the glass is in great shape (except back glass was removed to install an AC window unit) it has a fresh coat of rustoleum paint, the apolstery is new, the floors are solid.

The couple has used it for a sleeping quarters for guests and utilized extension cords from the house for power.

Once it is titled I know I should be able to get it on the road with a new set of tires and some brake lights. The projects can be tackled a little at a time but I need to see if there are some major hurtles I should be aware of.

I am a full time adult college student so money is very tight but I am in a position where I can trade his Argosy trailer for a utility trailer that I am not using and be even. I am very handy with tools and can fix most things mechanical and am not afraid of a project.

I am looking at more than a simple yes get it or you better pass. If you have an idea of potential pitfalls or deep money pit areas please let me know. I know the furnace is going to be an issue but I am from Alaska and we can buy a small propane buddy heater if needed for now.

Are these original refrigerators fixable and if so what usually goes out? The gentleman shared that the trailer had a bad inverter so I will need some advice on getting the electrical up and running.

I have two weeks to make a decision while the title search is being completed.
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Old 05-07-2013, 11:41 PM   #2
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Unfortunately I can not figure out how to upload pictures of this trailer to the site.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:08 AM   #3
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You haven't listed anything good going for it yet, and everything bad you listed is a ka-ching. No no on the inside propane heater, pretty hard to ventilate enough to run that inside. Refrigs are not probably fixable. Gotta have some brakes besides brake lights.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:13 AM   #4
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No brainer- buy/trade for it. The problems you describe are minor.
The refrig may just need cleaning and fiddling wih. There are no moving parts.
It will need a converter(battery charger) less than $200. Biggest expense will be axles, but maybe not right away.
Call me tomorrow if you like at 434-401-4060. We can discuss, and I will tell you how to load photos.
Oh and welcome to the forum and get ready for a big ride.

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Old 05-08-2013, 12:21 AM   #5
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I see lots of good- handy, not afraid, ready to learn, solid floor, no dents, good glass. I see some areas of unknown, but all may be fixable.

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Old 05-08-2013, 12:44 AM   #6
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Check out the thread by DKB_SATX about another Argosy for sale in Nicholasville, Ky. "It is all relative" comes to mind.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:21 AM   #7
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Here are some pics.

Well I think I may have seen how to post some pics so I am going to give it a try.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:30 AM   #8
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The only red flag that shows up in the photos is the AC placed where the rear window belongs. You've already mentioned the title issues, I don't know how much of a headache that will be to deal with in KY.

Did you open up the lower cabinets and prod the floors with something like an ice pick back where the subfloor meets the shell in as many places as you can reach? ESPECIALLY inside the bathroom cabinets and (if you have a long enough pick) between the freshwater tank and the shell in the front? You should also be able to get to some subfloor under the curbside arm rest of the front gaucho.

Even filled with their stored junk, it looks WAY better than the trailer *I* recently looked at in Kentucky!
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:53 AM   #9
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Everything to this point is contingent on his ability to get a valid title in Kentucky. If he can not get that then the trailer will do me no good and I don't have the heart to part out a classic.
I am looking for a memory maker while the kids are still at home (soon to have an 8th grade son and 10th grade daughter so our time is limited). I did not probe the floor or look under the cabinets. I have zero experience with trailers and have learned a lot these last few days reading in the forum.

As things progress and I do a more through inspection on the trailer I will take an ice pick with me (that should not freak them out the older couple too much right lol) and prob where I can. I was so impressed with the walk through and the prospect of making an even trade for it that I am guilty of appraising it with my eyes rather than utilizing some common sense. I figured it was a solid, sealed cylinder and as long as the seams looked good and it had no signs of caulking it should be good to go. I have a few ideas on what to look for now.

I read the thread about the KY trailer and the wasted round trip and it sucks that anyone would waste your time like that. I learned long ago that if they will not answer my questions thoroughly nor provide the pictures and back ground detail I need to be satisfied then they may be trying to hide something or be less than truthful. Its much easier to walk away from a deal than get stuck with someone elses headache/money pit.

Like I stated, I am handy with tools and have fixed my stereo system, several flat screen T.V.'s, Microwaves, Dishwashers, ovens, dryers, washing machines, motorcycle engines etc. - all self taught. I actually like the idea of taking the fridge in the Argosy apart and seeing if I can fix it. The internet is a wonderful tool since there are a ton of people handier than me to learn from.

Thanks for the warm welcome and the advice. I will post some more pictures as I get them and let you know how things progress.

Oh, What should I be looking for in the way of axle damage or replacement need? I know I will have to grease the bearings and find out how an electrical breaking system works as well.
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:46 AM   #10
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Axle damage is possible, but not all that likely. You can look underneath, the square tube the runs from one axle flange to the other will probably have a slight curve to it but not much, and shouldn't have any dents or flattened spots.

That said, in all likelihood this trailer is ready for a new axle. The rubber rods that provide the weight-carrying and flex in this torsion axle system don't last forever, and don't respond well to just sitting for years as this trailer seems to have done. This is *NOT* a red flag, it's a typical condition for older Airstreams, but it's something to keep in mind. They aren't repairable or modifiable, but a new one is readily available and can be ordered with new bearings and brakes as a complete assembly for well under $1000. There are many threads about this, including one of my own.

When you're ready to go and give this trailer a serious inspection, print out a copy of the Trailer Inspector's Checklist as a guide to make sure you check all the systems and structures. It's a very useful form.

The problem with the seller of the trailer in Mt. Vernon was that he DID answer questions and provide photos, he just lied and used old photos from before he banged up the trailer, and careful angles in newer photos. The problem with the potential buyer was that I wasn't patient enough to wait until a trustworthy AIRForums member had time to inspect it, and that cost me a weekend, $325 in fuel and a lot of frustration. As education costs go, it was WAY cheaper than either of my degrees.
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Old 05-08-2013, 01:33 PM   #11
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Greetings Crmpacer!

Welcome to the Forums and the world of Vintage (first Generation) Argosy Travel Trailers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crmpacer View Post
I ran across a deal that I might not be able to pass up and wanted to solicit some advice before I take the plunge.

I recently met an older couple that has what they believe is a 22' Argosy travel trailer. After doing some research (found pictures with the exact same layout) it looks like a 1973 model. The trailer seems to be fairly solid with little in the way of damage but it is showing its age and has some issues.
The paint application scheme suggests that the trailer is either a 1972 or 1973, but since it has been repainted, it could be any first generation model year from 1972 through 1979. An easy way to make this determination is to check the VIN. The VIN should be on a stamped plate riveted to the front of the trailer immediately behind and slightly to the streetside of the LP tanks. The VIN should have the following pattern:

20D3VXXXX

Decoded as follows:

The first two digits indicate length (20 feet in this example)

The third digits represents the floorplan (Double in this example, a T would indicate Twin . . . in both cases referring to the primary bed type)

The fourth digit represent the model year (1973 in this example, and could be from 2 through 9 for the first generation Argosy Travel Trailers)

The fifth digit represent the plant where manufactured (Versailles, Ohio in this example . . . . thought to be the only plant for years, a number of first generation Argosy Travel Trailers have been identified as having a C in this position which is thought to indicate production in Cerritos, California)

The final four digits represent the sequential production number.

Based on the photos, I tend to believe that the Argosy may be a 20 footer as it appears to be just a little short for the 22. A sure indicator is the prsence of a single axle . . . if it has a single axle, it is a 20 footer . . . if it has a tandem axle it is a 22 footer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crmpacer View Post
The trailer currently does not have a title and was sold eight years ago with a bill of sale in New Mexico. The current owner is trying to get it titled in our state so we can decide the best way to proceed.
You are wise to pursue the title issue prior to attempting the purchase. Nothing spoils a project quicker than trying to resolve ownership issues on a Vintage Airstream.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crmpacer View Post
Currently the trailer does not have anything working in it. The furnace does not work, the refrigerator does not work, the out side lights do not work, the inside lights do not work, the tires are shot and the condition of the plumbing is unknown. Stove does work.
What you are describing aren't necessarily huge issues. It appears that the current owners may not be all that familiar with RVs so some issues may be very easy to resolve.

Sometimes, but very rarely, the furnace in an "as-found" Vintage first generation Argosy is found to be safe to use. I was on the fortunate end of that issue with my 1978 Minuet . . . its furnace was in pristine condition and was found to be safe following a thorough inspection by an RV technician with experience encompassing the older furnaces.

As has been mentioned by another poster, the refrigerator may need little more than a good cleaning and leveling of the trailer. These older Dometic RV refrigerators insist upon being as near level as is possible for proper operation. The original Dometic in my Minuet is still going strong, but my Overlander had to have a new refrigerator shortly after my purchase in 1995. If the refrigerator is in otherwise good condition and the cooling unit is found to be bad, it is possible to install a rebuilt cooling unit thus avoiding the likelihood of having to modify the cabinet surrounding the refrigerator to accommodate a new replacement refrigerator.

The reason why the outside lights don't work could be any number of reasons. It could be a situation where the current owner isn't aware that the current industry standard for trailer connector wiring wasn't in place when our Vintage first generation Argosys were built. Airstream and Argosy utilized their own corporate wiring pattern, and if the connector hasn't been rewired to today's standard there will be a number of surprises when it is connected to a modern tow vehicle. It is also possible that it could be an issue of burned out bulbs or corossion in the light sockets and/or a bad ground.

The interior lights not working could also be a comparatively simple problem. There could be one or more blown fuses on the 12-volt DC side and/or a tripped breaker on the 120-volt AC side. All of the interior lights operate on 12-volts DC as does the water pump, ceiling fans, and furnace blower. There are typically from three to six duplex style 120-volt AC outlets, and the Dometic RV refrigerator also has a 120-volt AC element. The first issue that I would suggest checking is that both AC circuit breakers are properly set, and then my next thought would be to check the in-line fuses on the battery leads. If the interior lights work when a known good 12-volt battery is attached to the leads, then the Univolt is likely non-functional. The Univolt has a known pre-disposition to boil electrolyte causing the early demise of house batteries. A new 3-stage power converter/charger is often recommended even if the old Univolt is still functioning.

If the Argosy still has its original PAR water pump, my suggestion would be to pursue rebuilding unless freeze damage has rendered it non-repairable. The PAR pumps utilized in Vintage Airstream products are superior (IMHO) to those made today, and it is still possible to source rebuild kits for them, but you may need to consult a boating dealer as they are more common in marine applications.

You didn't mention the water heater, and if my experience is any indicator, the likelihood is that it may last a season or two if your are lucky. With both my Airstream and Argosy, the OEM water heater made it through the first season's use, but replacement was necessary at the beginning of the second season.

Something to be aware of regarding air conditioning. Many owners install rooftop air conditioners, and this Argosy was prepared for one from the factory. Unlike most Brand X travel trailers, Argosy and Airstream did not utilize one of the standard vent openings for their air conditioners, rather the opening for the air conditioner is cut in the roof (a specified distance behind the Number 1 front bow where the wiring and condesate drain for the air conditioner will be found). My Minuet didn't have an air conditioner so I had my Vintage Friendly Airstream dealer install one to be certain that it would be properly positioned.

Also, be forewarned that if the Argosy is a 1973 or older, it will have only a black-water tank and no gray-water tank. The black-water tank is typically found in the box below the toilet resting on top of the floor. A 1974 or newer Argosy will have a gray-water tank, but it will be rather small by todays standards (approximately 12 gallons).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crmpacer View Post
On the flip side the out side has only a few minor dents, the glass is in great shape (except back glass was removed to install an AC window unit) it has a fresh coat of rustoleum paint, the apolstery is new, the floors are solid.
Most of the window glass for our first generation Argosys can still be obtained, but it will be somewhat expensive. As long as the window frame and hinge is still present, a new rear window shouldn't bee too difficult to find. The tough glass to replace is that of the two front deep-wrap wing windows. These windows are still being utilized by Airstream, but the only available option is solar-gray tinting and our first generation Argosy travel trailers utilized clear class which is no longer available. My suggestion to any new Argosy owner with intact original front wing windows is to install a rock guard of some type for protection . . . the three-piece rock guard designed for the non-wide-body Airstreams fits the standard Argosy travel trailers as well . . . we Minuet owners are left with the task of narrowing the center window protector to fit our coaches as they are approximately 8-inches narrower than the standard Argosy.

You received very good advice from earlier posters regarding the floors. The ice pick/awl test is very important to determine floor condition. Floor repairs can run from somewhat simple epoxy/rot consolidant repairs to full floor replacement. Most Vintage Airstream/Argosy travel trailers will need some floor repair, but the price should reflect the cost of major floor repairs requiring panel replacement or total replacement. The floor in my 1964 Overlander required two patches as well as two repairs with consolidant, but my Minuet has the composite aluminum floors so I haven't encountered problem with its floors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crmpacer View Post
The couple has used it for a sleeping quarters for guests and utilized extension cords from the house for power.

Once it is titled I know I should be able to get it on the road with a new set of tires and some brake lights. The projects can be tackled a little at a time but I need to see if there are some major hurtles I should be aware of.
Given the age of the Argosy and the fact that it has spent considerable time without moving, as others have noted, be prepared for the likelihood that it will need new axle(s). This is an article that you can refer to regarding how to assess the condition of the torsion axle. It is a near given that most any as-found Vintage Airstream or Argosy will need axle(s) replacement as part of the restoration/refurbishment plan. Sometimes, it is possible to squeak a few years out of a worn axle if travel plans do not include great distances or bad roads . . . the trailer will quickly let you know if the axle is too far gone by popping rivets both interior and exterior.

While it isn't as common in the shorter Airstream products, rear end separation can be found in any of the Airstream trailers. This can be found by having someone step on the rear bumper while you observe the gap between the body and frame rail . . . if the gap widens when the bumper is stood upon, the trailer has the dreaded separation that often is accompanied by rot in the rear floor (particularly the corners). Rear end separation isn't the end of the world, but it is a condition that needs to be remedied as it gets much worse the longer it lacks attention. My Overlander developed rear end separation, but it has a much larger rear overhang, and it also had an ill-advised bumper mounted spare tire for much of its life (now removed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crmpacer View Post
I am a full time adult college student so money is very tight but I am in a position where I can trade his Argosy trailer for a utility trailer that I am not using and be even. I am very handy with tools and can fix most things mechanical and am not afraid of a project.
From your photos, it appears that this Argosy has received some decent care over the years. So long as no major floor rot is discovered, it appears to be a comparably straight-forward refurbish job. It sounds as if you have a fair trade worked out provided the title issue can be resolved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crmpacer View Post
I am looking at more than a simple yes get it or you better pass. If you have an idea of potential pitfalls or deep money pit areas please let me know. I know the furnace is going to be an issue but I am from Alaska and we can buy a small propane buddy heater if needed for now.
Basically, the two things of most immediate concern would be floor condition and axle condition. Beyond those two issues, it would be possible to travel and make-do as other repairs are made as the budget allows. That is exactly what I did with my Overlander, and most repairs/restoration were completed over a six year period of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crmpacer View Post
Are these original refrigerators fixable and if so what usually goes out? The gentleman shared that the trailer had a bad inverter so I will need some advice on getting the electrical up and running.
You may get lucky and find that a good cleaning and adjustment of the cooling unit will be all that is needed. These older Dometic RV refrigerators tend to be quite durable, and the cooling unit can be rebuilt/remanufactured if the refrigerator itself is in otherwise good condition. This can be a preferred method with our Vintage first generation Argosys as it can be quite difficult to find a new refrigerator that doesn't require significant cabinet modification. A rebuilt cooling unit typically costs between $500 and $750 while a new RV refrigerator typically runs between $1,000 and $1,300.

Good luck with your investigation!

Kevin
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Old 05-08-2013, 02:49 PM   #12
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It May Still Be Titled In New Mexico

If they bought it 8 years ago in NM,
And if they never titled it in Kentucky,
Then it may still be titled in New Mexico.
NM motor vehicle titles don't expire until the vehicle (or travel trailer) is re-titled. Otherwise, they never expire!
I would contact NM Motor Vehicle Department (MVD) and see if the trailer still has NM title.
If so, it's easy to get a duplicate title. (Easy is a relative term when talking about MVD. Haven't the Obamacare true believers ever been to MVD?)

Once you hold NM title, it's quite easy to transfer it to Kentucky (or Alaska).

Oh by the way, how do you know that none of that stuff works? (Talking about your opening post in this thread)
Many of those items cannot be diagnosed if the trailer doesn't have a nice new, fully charged battery. Sounds to me that the current owner either has no battery, or an old, dead battery.
They all need a new converter/charger so that's a given.
They all need new tires.
They all need a new battery.
They all need their wheel bearings cleaned and repacked or new bearings and races.

Hope this helps,
Ken
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:20 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alumaholic View Post
If they bought it 8 years ago in NM,
And if they never titled it in Kentucky,
Then it may still be titled in New Mexico.
NM motor vehicle titles don't expire until the vehicle (or travel trailer) is re-titled. Otherwise, they never expire!
I would contact NM Motor Vehicle Department (MVD) and see if the trailer still has NM title.
If so, it's easy to get a duplicate title. (Easy is a relative term when talking about MVD. Haven't the Obamacare true believers ever been to MVD?)

Once you hold NM title, it's quite easy to transfer it to Kentucky (or Alaska).

Oh by the way, how do you know that none of that stuff works? (Talking about your opening post in this thread)
Many of those items cannot be diagnosed if the trailer doesn't have a nice new, fully charged battery. Sounds to me that the current owner either has no battery, or an old, dead battery.
They all need a new converter/charger so that's a given.
They all need new tires.
They all need a new battery.
They all need their wheel bearings cleaned and repacked or new bearings and races.

Hope this helps,
Ken

Ken, The title issue is a tad concerning in the fact that he bought it eight years ago in NM via a bill of sale but it was last titled in Maine in 99 (or at least that is the last valid license plate it had). He transported it from NM with a license plate from another trailer.

Yesterday I talked him into paying the $60 titling fee and turning in the paper work into KY to get the process started so we at least know what we are looking at and if its possible to title.

As for the interior items, they have not been tested (except for the range - it works). When he bought it eight years ago it had a bad inverter and that was never fixed. The gentleman simple ran an extension cord from his house and plugged in a surge protector near the front door. I don't believe the shower or commode was ever utilized by him either but I an not 100% on that.

It sounds like one of the biggest threats to the integrity of this trailer is the fact that its been stagnant for so long. Thanks so much for the response.

You guys have been immensely helpful.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:48 PM   #14
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Overlander, Thank you so much for your thorough response. I want to reread your reply several times and address your questions when I have a little more time.

One of the last things you mentioned was rear end separation and that is something I need to check. The reason being is that this camper has a ball hitch on the back. When the lady shared that the camper was from Finland I was convinced that it must have been a hitch installed with the intent of towing a Sauna along behind (Those Fins are crazy about their Sauna). Regardless of the intent I am now fearful that an extra load in the back may have stressed the rear end like previously laid out. Does anyone know if these rear hitches are part of the Argosy package or was this Jerry Rigged and causing damage to the structure.
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