Orvis/Timeless Airstream Auction

[Gene]

Originally Posted by cojer

don't make me go outside and start trying to photogragh every passing airplane....again

Just photograph the black helicopters, the rest are on our side.

Gene

[Darkspeed]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

Just photograph the black helicopters, the rest are on our side.

Gene

Episode 1: chemtrails are responsible for filliform.. The conspiracy .

[Eric H]

The most notable thing this auction shows me personally, is how much my labor is actually "worth" as I slog away at my restoration. I'm in the fortunate position to have all the tools available to do the restoration correctly, but beyond that, getting into the actual number I think I'll have to spend to get my trailer to this level (or almost there) I think it will easily be below 9K, considering the trailer was just over 2K that's 11K (and A LOT of work). So to see what this thing is going for makes me happy to be spending the time....not because of resale, but because it puts some sort of number to the time I'm spending scraping, grinding, welding and cutting myself.
Of course my trailer won't have the Orvis name on it, which unfortunately I'm sure has a lot to do with the price, but it's nice to see anyway...

[Frank's Trailer Works]

The name Orvis probably has some draw, but the price is reflective of the incredible work done by Timeless. I can promise you that there is more than $9k in just fabrics in that trailer.

[SteSpot]

Originally Posted by Eric H

The most notable thing this auction shows me personally, is how much my labor is actually "worth" as I slog away at my restoration. I'm in the fortunate position to have all the tools available to do the restoration correctly, but beyond that, getting into the actual number I think I'll have to spend to get my trailer to this level (or almost there) I think it will easily be below 9K, considering the trailer was just over 2K that's 11K (and A LOT of work). So to see what this thing is going for makes me happy to be spending the time....not because of resale, but because it puts some sort of number to the time I'm spending scraping, grinding, welding and cutting myself.
Of course my trailer won't have the Orvis name on it, which unfortunately I'm sure has a lot to do with the price, but it's nice to see anyway...

Have you kept an accurate record of the amount of time actually spent on your trailer? Some shops are charging $95 an hour.

This is a Timeless trailer. That is what makes it so valuable. Orvis is marketing it.s
Someone is going to be a lucky winner of this auction.

[Gene]

There's nothing like doing it yourself. We've remodeled two houses and made them ours and are very proud of that.

Restoring or remodeling is a lot of work and I'm not worth $95 or more an hour—I don't work fast enough.

We didn't want to restore an Airstream though. Besides the steep learning curve, we wanted to go camping and not wait 5 years until we were so old we wanted to go to the nursing home.

There is a difference between the most expensive materials and very good materials. Just like there's a difference between the 99% and the 1%.

Gene

[Eric H]

That makes perfect sense. It's just nice to be hands on sometimes.

I'd have to disagree on the most expensive and very good materials thought though...those two things are so often not mutually exclusive, not only in trailers, but in so many things in life.
"Very good materials" and things that are the "most expenses" are often two separate worlds. There are a million examples of this, from handbags ($3000 for a handbag with $30 worth of materials and 30 hours of work in it) to Nike shoes, to a lot of expensive American made cars... all of these things may be the "most expensive" but they sure aren't made with the best materials and often not by the most experienced hands.
So if Orvis spent 10K on some designer fabric for the seat covers just so they can say "the seat covers are so-and-so fabric" they have not necessarily used the best materials for the job, just the most expensive, the expense comes from the name, and that's what most people (Americans especially) are enamored with...names...I would be willing to be that many of the people who bid on that trailer did so mainly because it was the Orvis trailer, not because it is a perfectly restored Airstream. I doubt you will see the winner on this board...

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

There's nothing like doing it yourself. We've remodeled two houses and made them ours and are very proud of that.

Restoring or remodeling is a lot of work and I'm not worth $95 or more an hour—I don't work fast enough.

We didn't want to restore an Airstream though. Besides the steep learning curve, we wanted to go camping and not wait 5 years until we were so old we wanted to go to the nursing home.

There is a difference between the most expensive materials and very good materials. Just like there's a difference between the 99% and the 1%.

Gene

[Gene]

Eric, I agree the most expensive materials may not be the best. Like everything, you can always have more depth to a definition. So, maybe I should have written there are two types of "most expensive"—those that are expensive because of quality and good, perhaps innovative style, and those that are expensive because of other reasons like undeserved reputation, false advertising and appeals to vanity. The form vs. function debate can be informative also.

There is a point where better quality does not pay off—the law of diminishing returns. A hand made quilt may be a little better than a machine made one, but cost twice as much. Every hand made one is individual, but that could be an appeal to ego. The machine made one may be more exact and last longer. Quilts come to mind because my wife just won one in a raffle—the top is hand made, but the filling, back and stitching of the whole thing together are done by a machine. This seems to be a blend of hand made individualism with machine made simplicity that brings cost down with no loss of quality.

In remodeling we tried to buy very, very good things where they would stand out and focus people's attention. Other things could be ordinary (but not cheap junk), but work well with the things we all focus on. People don't see everything in a room but they do notice certain things. The brain does not pay attention to all the detail, but fills in the other stuff with what it expects rather than what is there. That's why eyewitness identifications are often wrong. And after a while, we don't notice all the detail and mistakes either because we live here.

This approach may be more difficult in a trailer. The small space makes more things visible. Blending different things becomes more critical. Our trailer has aluminum exterior with Formica faced fiberboard partitions. The Formica looks fake—it doesn't look like wood because it doesn't reflect light like real wood—and doesn't blend with the aluminum. Both are shiny surfaces. The partitions should counter the shininess of the aluminum, but without rebuilding all the partitions, what can I do? Paint them? Not sure that would work. This is an example of bad design in an expensive product.

Gene

[Eric H]

Very true, bad design can make the most expensive things look cheap. While good design can make common things look and feel worth their weight in gold.
Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder, unfortunately I suspect a good deal of the "beauty" that people who are bidding on this trailer see is the Orvis name.

[Bill M.]

reserve is met. we are gonna have a winner. I think it is an awful nice trailer. I would hate to second guess someone who has made enough money to buy this trailer on their perception of value. They probably know well what they are doing.

[Ag&Au]

Well, Lets see....
It closes Sunday evening. So all I need to do is hit the Megamillions jackpot tonight, and if that doesn't work, I still have Colorado Lotto and Powerball tomorrow night. Piece of cake.

Ken

[Frank's Trailer Works]

Originally Posted by SteSpot

Have you kept an accurate record of the amount of time actually spent on your trailer? Some shops are charging $95 an hour.

Some shops charge $50/hour. Some shop owners come in on Saturday and work on their projects just for the fun of it never logging a single minute of it. Ask me how I know.
Some shops charge for every single rivet and screw, accounting for every single penny. Some shops just use a general supplies fee. Some shops charge $120/ hour. Some charge a base price of $100k and go up from there. Everyone charges what they feel they need to be making. Hopefully their customers feel good about how they are spending their money in the end.

Maybe I should be thinking about raising my rates.

[Eric H]

Originally Posted by Bill M.

reserve is met. we are gonna have a winner. I think it is an awful nice trailer. I would hate to second guess someone who has made enough money to buy this trailer on their perception of value. They probably know well what they are doing.

100K? Hmmm... as my mother would say, more dollars then sense.

Just because someone has made (or inherited) a lot of money does not make them smart or not worth second guessing... Example: most politicians.
If it's for a good cause then great, someone get's a write-off...but is the trailer actually "worth" the 100K?

[Lance M]

Originally Posted by Eric H

..but is the trailer actually "worth" the 100K?

I say yes. Even more. At $60 an hour, 100k will buy you 1,666 hours of labor. I would say that Timeless has more hours in it than that. I'd be willing to bet that Timeless charges more than $60 per hour.

[SteSpot]

Originally Posted by Top

I say yes. Even more. At $60 an hour, 100k will buy you 1,666 hours of labor. I would say that Timeless has more hours in it than that. I'd be willing to bet that Timeless charges more than $60 per hour.

I would bet you are correct. Someone is going to get a good buy. paula

[Eric H]

Originally Posted by Top

I say yes. Even more. At $60 an hour, 100k will buy you 1,666 hours of labor. I would say that Timeless has more hours in it than that. I'd be willing to bet that Timeless charges more than $60 per hour.

If they spent that many hours on restoring that trailer then their learning curve is really bad! That's 208 days of work at 8 hours a day! No way it was even close to that many hours for a professional place like Timeless.

[Frank's Trailer Works]

Eric, When you finish your project, we'll talk. It is not unrealistic to have one single window take an entire day to rebuild depending on style in the trailer. You are very fortunate with that 70's unit, for they are the easiest windows to work on. By the time one properly cleans the frames, sash, and operators, installs new gaskets and seals, then puts it all back together, it is absolutely astounding how the hours add up. The 1971 Overlander on the shop floor right now only has 7 operating windows. Wayne and I have spent three solid days making them all new again. Today being Saturday, I am about to go put them back in. So, just to be forth right and honest about what it takes; 2 days @ 16 man hours/ day= 32 man hours x $50/hr= $1600 in just labor. That is $228.57/ window. More money than sense or good money spent? The trailer now has brand new windows. What are brand new windows worth? (Peace of mind and the absence of leaks. Also the ability to open and close them easily).We are very fortunate because no glass had to be replaced and the client supplied me all the gaskets and seals.

I have spent just about my entire adult life working in the service industry. Virtually all that time was spent working for people of means(some with more means than sense). Something I have learned during that time is some can, but most cannot. Most that cannot are more than happy to pay someone that can. Those that can well, are most often rewarded handsomely. However more important than that, has been that what is expectable, okay, good, or excellent varies drastically from one person to the other. Some are just fine with seeing raw plywood edges on their cabinets, wires running on the walls, two different wood species on the same cabinet, miss matched stain colors, even tape holding windows shut. Some are just fine with "good enough." Fortunately for me, those potential customers go talk to other shops.

As I have said repeatedly on this thread; WOW!!! What an awesome trailer!! The folks at Timeless should be very proud of what they have done here!

[exthemius]

Originally Posted by Eric H

If they spent that many hours on restoring that trailer then their learning curve is really bad! That's 208 days of work at 8 hours a day! No way it was even close to that many hours for a professional place like Timeless.

And hopefully you realize that it's not just one bloke doing this -- that 208 days is spread across multiple people, so you're really only talking about months.

[FlashSilver]

Originally Posted by Eric H

That makes perfect sense. It's just nice to be hands on sometimes.
.I would be willing to be that many of the people who bid on that trailer did so mainly because it was the Orvis trailer, not because it is a perfectly restored Airstream. I doubt you will see the winner on this board...

I have to disagree about the Orvis name adding something to the price of a trailer. Orvis isn't even a premium name in fishing (as is Sage, Winston, Hatch) and has no reputation in the trailer business. The name Timeless is another story as they have a reputation for both quality and design, a rare feat. I don't know how much input Orvis had in the design, but I suspect very little, beyond saying they wanted something that looked like a traditional fishing shack. As a fly fisherman who owns an AS primarily to camp near his favorite streams, I am more than impressed with the job Timeless did in the whale tail.

As a former Economics major, I must take issue with the comparison of the projected price with the cost of materials and labor. In a capitalist system, price and cost are unrelated. The price of a good is determined by what the market will bear. Remember, supply and demand is not just a good idea, it's the Law. Given that this trailer is unique and very attractive, the demand far exceeds the supply (of one), thus mandating a very high price. I know, capitalism is a bitch but it's the best we have. If this trailer was mass produced, the demand would remain the same (or even decrease as the uniqueness fades ) while the supply is increased driving the price down to its marginal (not actual) cost.

In other words, this trailer is worth a lot of money and will get it. It is the Law.

[SL4BLLT]

The bid keeps climbing. A few folks like what they see.

SL4BLLT