Forbes interview with Bob Wheeler

[ZoominC6]

Thanks for posting the interview.

[slowmover]

Streamline had aluminum cabinetry throughout their life. No rust, no rot, more interior space to the same and this adds structural strength. It isn't rocket science. A/S is long overdue for weight reduction, and would be a much better performer as a result. Wood, OSB and the rest have almost no reason to be in a travel trailer built for permanence (arguments about flooring being left alone here).

Thanks for linking the article. Sad that Europe is 15-years ahead and A/S-N/America is behind the curve.

But if they can get their act together about marketing used trailers as the bargain we all know them to be, (and be open about sharing renovation plans and upgrades, etc) then they'll build into a future that is self-sustaining as to demand. Would be great to see.

A Harley is a waste of money compared to what a travel trailer can be to a family or individual; a businessman or a ultra-sports competitor, a trailer able to last a lifetime and be rebuilt better than new with low costs of operation is an idea just in time.

.

[SilverRanger]

"There are always trade-offs. I like the way my AS tows. How much stability will be sacrificed for weight?"


From CEO Wheeler (again):
""The U.S. RV industry has to get serious about lightweight. Travel trailers in particular, and the tow vehicles people are buying. They’re going to have to follow the path that European RV industry has taken. I think the European RV industry is 15 years ahead of us here in the U.S., simply with the things they’ve done in areas like light-weighting".

Understanding that CEO Wheeler's statement was directed at, or about, the U.S. RV industry, perhaps it's time for AS to set an example. Airstream obviously already has the ability to produce lightweight 'European RV's', and have been for years at Jackson Center. If there were any stability issues in those lightweight models, I'm confident it would have become evident by now.

Regarding lightweight Airstreams in the U.S., they've already done that too. I own a 1968 24' Trade Wind that weighs virtually the same weight as my 2005 19' Bambi. In my opinion (and experience), the Trade Wind is a higher quality build, and tows as easily as the Bambi. I just towed a 2004 25' Safari with a Suburban (7.4L engine and a Hensley) from Anchorage to Seattle, and wished it towed like my Trade Wind.

"Like any CEO worth the key to the executive washroom, Wheeler is keeping his options open..."

I've met Bob Wheeler (a very likeable chap), corresponded with him on numerous issues, and have been to Jackson Center 4 times. The (my) jury is still out on whether he should have the keys.

[barts]

Originally Posted by Fly at Night

There are always trade-offs. I like the way my AS tows. How much stability will be sacrificed for weight?
....
We love the lure of the open road, but what is at the end of that road? If the worse case scenario regarding fuel prices materializes, our fancy trailers will indeed be turned into guest houses and back-yard offices.

Our 25' Airstream had (pre-new axles) a 5400 GVW rating; it weighed 4200 lbs dry. Tongue weight is about 450 lbs....

A 2010 25' Airstream weighs 5443 lbs dry... 25% more. GVW is now 7300 lbs, tongue weight w/ propane is 837 lbs (!).

I wonder what has been added to the newer trailers to add 1200 lbs...
hopefully, some must have gone into making the frame stronger, but that's a lot of additional weight in a 25' trailer.

I don't think adding 1200+ lbs to our Airstream will make it tow any better.

- Bart

[Gene]

Production at 1,350 units/year according to Wheeler. That's half what they were producing 5 years ago.

We went to the Albuquerque RV show today. Lots of really big Class A's, C's and 5th wheels. So much for fuel economy. People seem to want lush accommodations, a condo on wheels, and that's what the industry gives them. Only one 20' Airstream was there.

It sounded like Wheeler was saying they build to order, so how can dealers have any inventory? I couldn't make sense of that.

One of Wheeler's great ideas was the Basecamp. There's been talk of lightening the trailers for years and the 2012 weighs the same as our 2008. We've seen the European models at JC too and somehow they haven't adopted anything from them. They are smaller than US/Canadian models to suit Europe's roads, don't have electric jacks and seem to be engineered for harsher weather. They also have hot water heat.

I am unclear what Wheeler has done other than cut costs and substitute cheap things to save dollars, though there may be some good things. I've met him too and he is personable and listened to my substantial criticisms, so I'll give him that. That he picked up an MBA at the U. of Buffalo shows strength of character because of the winters. I lived in Buffalo for 7 years, so I can appreciate that (my character is another question). I went to school there too and didn't even know they had a business school, but UB is not known for superior academics anyway. Wolf Blitzer went to UB also.

Wheeler has taken a lot of abuse on this Forum for years and the result has not been impressive. Things seem pretty much the same. They went to LED's, you can get 16" wheels with LT tires as an option, a window in the bathroom door, even higher prices. It appears QC may have been improved (had quite a discussion with him about QC) and maybe that is the one important significant thing.

I think the Forbes' interview was softball questions and Wheeler responded with PR answers. Some information, not too much.

Gene

[ROBERT CROSS]

Gene,

I assume you didn't like Elma Mayter either, she and her friends always seemed a little pretentious to our crowd on Allen St.
Except for those who drove Saab Station Wagons of course.

Bob

[redwoodguy]

On the subject of weight.
My new 25 FC is made pretty much out of MDF, a rather annoying and grating fact that will bug me as long as I own the trailer. Hundreds of pounds could be saved by just using baltic birch ply in place of all that MDF.

The design is tilted heavily toward "land-based style", and steered far away from efficiency. The overhead cabinets are a study in material waste. (The International is a bit better with the sliding door in place of the big coffin doors.)

It's one thing to imagine expensive conversion to exotic composites costing millions. It's quite another to simply improve the current design and use some common sense engineering. In my view, they aren't even trying to be lighter.

I love my trailer, but I would love it more if it was 500 pounds slimmer. An easy target I think without going to exotic materials.

[redwoodguy]

A weight savings example from my last trailer. Before I bought the AS, I had bought a small 18 foot trailer last summer. It was new too. It came with a ridiculous dinette table which was freestanding on an ironing board style fold-up base. That base was steel, and the table top was thick MDF with laminate added. The table must have weighed close to 50# and was nearly impossible to fold up and take down without injuring oneself.

Ok, I took the table out all together. I went to the fine lumber yard and obtained a cut piece of baltic birch ply, shaped and sanded, attached an aluminum folding leg, two hinge points at the other end and put a receptical on the trailer wall. Painted it up nicely and saved about 45 of the original 50 pounds. The function was enhanced, the weight was reduced, and I even think the cost was less than the contraption they had used.

What's in my new AS? A huge, thick MDF slab for a table. Now that's simply stupid by any measure.

[dkottum]

Red, Airstream is not that stupid. My 2012 25' Flying Cloud has plywood countertops, cabinets and access doors, and partitions. You have the same model. Take a look under the sink and you can see the cut edges. The plywood edges are also visible on the cabinet doors.

I am pleased with the construction of my trailer. I would like to see a 1000# (or more) weight reduction in available tow vehicles which would be more meaningful because they are usually driven more without the trailer, than with it.

doug k

[Kosm1o]

One thing Airstream has going for it is the curved design and torsion suspension. I get better fuel mileage with my 28' Safari at 6500# than my previous 18' ultra light at 2900# so they have that going for them. I dnt see how to cut too much more out of the interior. Maybe aluminum frame?

[Tim A.]

I can't resist putting in my 2 cents worth. I am sure I will regret it!

Let me start with the thought that wood is not light. For its strength, wood, and particularly Luan-type plywood, is low density and very suited for lightweight construction. That construction is often hollow with thin outside plywood surfaces. Airstream has used this type of construction in many applications through the years and, yet, it generates almost endless criticism of thin walls which are flimsy and not good for mounting, say, a giant TV on.

Wheeler's mention of weight savings in European trailer construction seems to generate an automatic reaction, "Why not here and now." Well, Airstream does offer some of the weight saving features in US models, specifically, the Sport models.

Part of what makes European trailers light are thin, laminated outside walls. The resultant trailer is square, not the nice rounded shape of an Airstream.

The various water tanks on European trailers are much smaller and most have a cassette toilet and no blackwater tank. Double 30 lb propane (often butane in Europe) tanks are anything but common on European trailers.

Low weight has long been necessary in Europe because of the low tongue weights the trailers must have. Weight-distribution hitches are extremely rare in Europe and the hitch weight is supported by the hitch ball. Partly as a result of inherent sway problems in such a system, the speed limits for trailers in Europe are low. The ball of a European trailer hitch is not threaded onto, but is an integral part of the hitch bar. The only sway control is frictional clamping on the ball.

My point to those who criticize Airstream weight is, "Beware of what you ask for." Could they improve? Sure and Wheeler has said that will come.

Tim

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Tim A.

I can't resist putting in my 2 cents worth. I am sure I will regret it!

Sorry to disappoint you Tim, but you make some very good points.

Gene

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Tim A.

I can't resist putting in my 2 cents worth. I am sure I will regret it!

Let me start with the thought that wood is not light. For its strength, wood, and particularly Luan-type plywood, is low density and very suited for lightweight construction. That construction is often hollow with thin outside plywood surfaces. Airstream has used this type of construction in many applications through the years and, yet, it generates almost endless criticism of thin walls which are flimsy and not good for mounting, say, a giant TV on.

Wheeler's mention of weight savings in European trailer construction seems to generate an automatic reaction, "Why not here and now." Well, Airstream does offer some of the weight saving features in US models, specifically, the Sport models.

Part of what makes European trailers light are thin, laminated outside walls. The resultant trailer is square, not the nice rounded shape of an Airstream.

The various water tanks on European trailers are much smaller and most have a cassette toilet and no blackwater tank. Double 30 lb propane (often butane in Europe) tanks are anything but common on European trailers.

Low weight has long been necessary in Europe because of the low tongue weights the trailers must have. Weight-distribution hitches are extremely rare in Europe and the hitch weight is supported by the hitch ball. Partly as a result of inherent sway problems in such a system, the speed limits for trailers in Europe are low. The ball of a European trailer hitch is not threaded onto, but is an integral part of the hitch bar. The only sway control is frictional clamping on the ball.

My point to those who criticize Airstream weight is, "Beware of what you ask for." Could they improve? Sure and Wheeler has said that will come.

Tim

Tim, your last line of "beware...." strikes a chord with me. In 93 I bought a 22' SOB which one of the first of the "lightweights". I won't even tell you of the issues.....major structural stuff as well as little stuff.

I appreciate the fact that my Classic (maybe other models as well) has all the beef. So far at least!!!!!!

Like my old Papa says, "There are some things more important than fuel mileage."

[Kosm1o]

Having just toured the Airstream factory, we were shown the model that is shipped to Europe. It is narrower than American model and has surge breaks . There are other differences as well like the floor. Not plywood but I don't remember what it is.

[martian]

I don't want to be European. I want to American. So give me a quality product with size, floor plan, and decor choices to fit my lifestyle.

By the way, there is lots of petroleum in Alaska, Canada, and even the rest of North America. We just won't tap it, so blame the courts and the politicians for expensive fuel. I'll duck for cover now!

[barts]

Originally Posted by martian

I don't want to be European. I want to American. So give me a quality product with size, floor plan, and decor choices to fit my lifestyle.

By the way, there is lots of petroleum in Alaska, Canada, and even the rest of North America. We just won't tap it, so blame the courts and the politicians for expensive fuel. I'll duck for cover now!

You can pretend all you want, but the rate of oil production has not increased significantly in the last decade. It is not (pick your favorite scapegoat), but the oil remaining is increasingly difficult to extract. It takes more effort, and more energy, and so extraction will wait until the more easily extracted oil is tapped. Google such terms as peak oil or Hubbert curve for interesting reading.

If we're lucky, the tapering off in supply will be gradual enough to permit some adaption to alternatives. If we're not, we'll see significant price shocks, and accompanying national and international political upheavals.

These are indeed interesting times.

- Bart

[Aage]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

It sounded like Wheeler was saying they build to order, so how can dealers have any inventory? I couldn't make sense of that.

Gene,

I read that to mean that his larger dealers order on spec to stock up trailers and therefore carry the inventory. They sell mostly what they have bought and have on the lot, not special orders from clients.

Must be a high margin item if they can afford to eat that hit their ROI must take, to sit with a pile of new $100k trailers.

[Aage]

Originally Posted by barts

You can pretend all you want, but the rate of oil production has not increased significantly in the last decade. It is not (pick your favorite scapegoat), but the oil remaining is increasingly difficult to extract.

I don't think that oil will suddenly do anything, but rather prices will continue their strong upward movement until the vast majority cannot afford to drive cars, hybrid or not.

This will put a lot of the people who now drive one or two hours each way every day out on the street, unemployed. That's when the shock really hits.

And I don't see anywhere in the world that will be able to avoid this. China, for example: if we can't buy their stuff, they will be in deep trouble too. No way around that.

[redwoodguy]

Originally Posted by dkottum

Red, Airstream is not that stupid. My 2012 25' Flying Cloud has plywood countertops, cabinets and access doors, and partitions. You have the same model. Take a look under the sink and you can see the cut edges. The plywood edges are also visible on the cabinet doors.

I am pleased with the construction of my trailer. I would like to see a 1000# (or more) weight reduction in available tow vehicles which would be more meaningful because they are usually driven more without the trailer, than with it.

doug k

Interesting. I just an hour ago bored a 1-1/2" hole through the shelf in the closet. It was vinyl clad MDF. I still have the plug. And, as the bore went through, heating that MDF, the smell that came off resins was incredibly noxious. I can't say I am willing to bore holes all over, but I am rather certain that's not the only MDF. Usually, quality birch ply is not vinyl clad. The dinette feels to me to be far heavier than any high quality birch plywood might weigh. I've worked with high quality plywood a lot over the years, and I have a decent feel for what a piece weighs. I very recently worked with large pieces in my other trailer and they were significantly lighter than my AS dinette feels.

I am not saying that as a fact, but I am pretty sure that most of the cabinet doors, drawers, and the dinette table are vinyl clad MDF. I'll see if I can find a non-destructive way to do more investigation.

I will be delighted to be wrong in this case. Thanks for letting me know how yours is made.

[redwoodguy]

Originally Posted by Aage

Gene,

I read that to mean that his larger dealers order on spec to stock up trailers and therefore carry the inventory. They sell mostly what they have bought and have on the lot, not special orders from clients.

Must be a high margin item if they can afford to eat that hit their ROI must take, to sit with a pile of new $100k trailers.

I asked my dealer directly how they operate. This is what the finance guy told me. They order enough trailers to keep a stock of almost every model and interior. In their case they had about 40 Airstreams on the lot. They dress them out according to what they know their customers prefer. The have an $6M inventory credit line with their bank. The bank pays AS for the units, then charges the dealer interest on each unit, each month (typical flooring arrangement). As each one sells off the lot, they order a replacement.

That kind of a dealership is very costly to run. I think they had 35 employees. That's one heck of a nut to crack each month.