Forbes interview with Bob Wheeler

[Denis4x4]

Every RV I've ever owned has a small plaque referring to the fact that "this unit complies....bla bla". Is it possible that meeting these specs adds cost to the US units? I know back in the 1970's, i did some consultation work for a van conversion company and the finished units had to have that tag before a dealer would stock them.

[Airslide]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

"But the installers need a reasonable skill and concern for the product to get quality. How do you get good work out of him if he doesn't know good work?"

My black tank vent two weeks after delivery just one of many indications of the reasonable skill lack theory.


Oh...you guyz are gonn'a get me started on QC AGAIN...
I thought it was getting more better, but ....

Bob

Yikes.. this isnt the new airstream is it?

[ROBERT CROSS]

[QUOTE=Airslide;1092378]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

"But the installers need a reasonable skill and concern for the product to get quality. How do you get good work out of him if he doesn't know good work?"

My black tank vent two weeks after delivery just one of many indications of the reasonable skill lack theory.


Oh...you guyz are gonn'a get me started on QC AGAIN...
I thought it was getting more better, but ....

Bob


Yikes.. this isnt the new airstream is it?

Yep.....the 03 Classic.

Joined here right after purchase. Saw some of the leak threads, went up on the roof and sure enough there it was. Very lucky we found it when we did.

Bob

[TouringDan]

Zlee

Thanks for the specs sheets. To do a proper comparison, a spec sheet is needed for the 2012 US Aistreams that would be comparable to the european models, ie. to compare apples to apples.

I looked at the european specs and made the following insteresting observations:

1. Inside width is only about 7'-0" except for the largest model which is 7'-7".
2. No dry weights listed.
3. Tire pressure for 70 series tires is 64 psi, for 60 series is 44 psi. Sounds like 70 series are trailer tires and 60 series are car/truck tires.
4. Hot water heat. A/C is optional.
5. 48 mm (1.22") sandwich floor with styrofoam insultation- Must be some type of composite. I don't see why the floor construction would be any different than the US Airstreams. It would seem that this would be a better floor than plywood.
6. No information on the brakes.

Dan

[Tim A.]

Originally Posted by TouringDan

1. Inside width is only about 7'-0" except for the largest model which is 7'-7".
5. 48 mm (1.22") sandwich floor with styrofoam insultation- Must be some type of composite.
6. No information on the brakes.
Dan

Airstreams with the same inside widths are available in the US: Sport models are 7' 0" (16' model) and 6' 11.75" (22' model). Presumably the bodies are the same as the European models.

I do not know what the sandwich floor is made from, but it may not be "composite." There are styrofoam sandwich materials which have wood as part of the sandwich.

The brakes are surge brakes. In many parts of Europe, a brake controller inside the tow vehicle is not allowed. Surge brakes are activated by inertial force on the trailer tongue when the tow vehicle brakes. They are common in smaller trailers in the US.

Weight and other specifications on the European models are here: Dimensions & Weights < Product Family | Airstream Europe : Airstream, dimensions, weights, International, safari . The weights are in kilos (kg) and 1 kg = 2.205 US pounds.

Tim

[barts]

Originally Posted by Tim A.

The brakes are surge brakes. In many parts of Europe, a brake controller inside the tow vehicle is not allowed. Surge brakes are activated by inertial force on the trailer tongue when the tow vehicle brakes. They are common in smaller trailers in the US.

Surge brakes are standard on many rental trailers. They generally are quite a bit more reliable than electrically actuated brakes, since they avoid the common failure modes of a damaged or loose electrical connection, misadjusted controller, etc.

- Bart

[Frank's Trailer Works]

just a few points of my own...

The oil cost versus supply... Neither argument seems to effect quarterly gross profits in the billions by the oil companies. Hard to extract or short supply, they still make billions. I guess the fact that gas is now the leading expense in our lives has a part to it also.

The Euro versus US rigs.... I had a 1961 30 footer in here a few weeks back. I could wheel it anywhere with just one finger. It is all about balance. The euro units use virtually zero tongue weight and function in a balanced state. Remember that old line, give me a fulcrum and I can move the world... Balance .

Quality... please give that a break. It's made in America where most people care about getting that check on Friday, not weather you are going up on the roof to see if they sealed the vent right. Very few people care what it will be like a week from now, they get paid at 3:30 on Friday. I am lucky however, I work to my standards. Since I seem to never get paid, I can spend as much time as I want so Bob never has an experience what he did.

Bob Wheeler... I like the guy. I just wish he studied his companies history more.

[Kosm1o]

Originally Posted by barts

Surge brakes are standard on many rental trailers. They generally are quite a bit more reliable than electrically actuated brakes, since they avoid the common failure modes of a damaged or loose electrical connection, misadjusted controller, etc.

- Bart

But you can't activate them independent of the tow vehicle. Usually surge brakes are used on lighter trailers and might be o.k. on a 3500 # trailer but when the trailer gets heavier than the TV , I wouldn't want them.

[PhilipKS]

More words from Bob Wheeler dated 1/12/12.

Airstream CEO Shares Secret Of Resurgence - TheStreet

I found one part particularly interesting for me...

For many, the next level is to take that experience on the road. There's no reason they can't work from an Airstream in a campground just as easily as they can for a house. We've had more request for desk space and thoughtfully designed workplaces in both the trailers and mobile homes as well as better communication tools. We haven't pulled the trigger on it yet, but we're taking some big steps in that direction.

I fulltime, and use my dinette as my office space, but have been thinking about ways to make living and working in my '99 Excella a little more practical. I'm interested to see what they come up with in JC.
Have fun!

Philip

[newroswell]

Let's be honest, us Airstreamers are a hard bunch to satisfy. The quality issues are an obvious problem that needs to be fixed, especially at the price these things are selling for. It's probably hard to maintain a strong crew when you're building 5,000 units one year and 1,000 the next, then 2,000. I would imagine their factory headcount varies as needed.

We've got threads here that insist we should be getting disc brakes on these premium trailers, but surge brakes aren't so bad, in the name of price and weight, I guess.

Some don't like the Safari Sport with it's cheaper cabinets and non-riveted window frames, cheapening our resale value, braking with tradition. They do make the trailer lighter and cut costs.

We could go back to 7' widths. Then they could make the frame even weaker, er, I mean, lighter.

Who's ready for some plastic molded cabinets? Let's do it '80s style!

I guess the 2x30lb propane bottles gotta go? We could probably do with a single 10lb'er. That's plenty to get the fair weather campers through a weekend. We don't even need batteries. Everywhere the Honda Civic is pulling these babies have full hookup's anyway.

You don't NEED hot water and air-conditioning in these trailers! We're camping right?

1000 pounds really isn't hard to do, if we want to.

I haven't found any MDF in our 2010 Flying Cloud yet. The build quality is great. And I'm comparing that to our 2007 International AND the 1966 Flying Cloud I've owned in the past.

[redwoodguy]

Originally Posted by dkottum

Red', build date here is July 2011 and it's also a 25B. As I said I can't access the interior material of the table, but it is identical in surfaces and thickness to the counter tops in kitchen/bath which can easily be identified as plywood by looking at the cutouts under the sinks.

The shelf in the lower cabinet next to the toilet is machined out to take mounting screws and the plus of the wow can be seen. Again, identical exterior appearance to all the shelves.

I pulled out the furnace vent in the bedroom to see the plywood edges of the partition, assuming the other partitions are of the same construction.

There is plywood visible in the bath cabinet doors where they are machined for the hinges. The edges of all the curved cabinet doors reveal the plywood construction.

I can't find any MDF. The trim around the bath door opening is solid oak. I did drill a couple small holes under the bedroom TV to mount a portable vacuum and it is hard to tell what it is made of from that, but the heat vent cutout shows plywood.

The plywood looks like a Baltic birch product with many plys and plenty of glue I would assume. Different grades of this stuff and it is not expensive, but makes flat and stable cabinets. I don't doubt a strong glue smell when drilling into it.

Could you verify the material in the places I mentioned and let us know? Besides the closet shelf, where did you find MDF?

I don't like MDF for the reasons mentioned earlier, doesn't hold screws and is heavy (although these multi-ply wood products don't seem to be especially light either). I still maintain the Airstream is good value. There is a Earthbound trailer (they don't give those away either) down the row from here; let me tell you its plastic exterior curved panels and windows look weathered. There was a 30 year old Airstream here that was in beautiful condition. They had all the exterior panels replaced at Jackson Center, which is testimony how an Airstream is always repairable and worth the money.

doug k

Doug,
Well thankfully, I was substantially wrong on the ply vs. MDF. My cabinet doors and drawers like yours are ply, as is the countertops and so on. I must be going blind! But, the shelf IS MDF. No big deal in the greater scheme of things. Sorry to have pulled the panic cord there - my mistake.
And, I am happy to be wrong on this one.

[dkottum]

Thanks for looking at those cabinets again RED'. When we had the 2007 Safari there was a similar claim that they were full of MDF cabinets. Couldn't find any in that one either, but didn't look as hard to find it.

Another thing that impressed me with this trailer was the lack of chemical smell from construction materials. We bought this thing within a couple months of assembly and there was none detectable.

I am certain the filiform corrosion and leaking shell openings have not been completely resolved and we must remain persistent with inspections and maintenance. Airstream is aware of it and attempting to decrease its effect.

The iconic style is admired by all who see it, and those who come by for a look inside are truly impressed. The company is putting some effort into design and it shows.

We are happy with our trailer and never have that "wish I had got something else" feeling. Totally satisfied. My sense is that Bob Wheeler is improving the product for us and continues to look ahead for his company.

doug k

[zlee]

I love that basically the secret of the resurgence of Airstream is design and technology. As a design junky, it doesn't surprise me at all!

[Frank's Trailer Works]

Originally Posted by zlee

I love that basically the secret of the resurgence of Airstream is design and technology. As a design junky, it doesn't surprise me at all!

I wish that were a true statement. To make a resurgence on must fall from grace or favor. Airstream has never been in that position.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by 62overlander

I wish that were a true statement. To make a resurgence on must fall from grace or favor. Airstream has never been in that position.

Yeah, one would have to go back to the point in time where torsion axles became standard for that puffery to be closer to accurate, relative to itself and other trailer brands. 1963?

[Kosm1o]

Lots of talk about MDF but my cabinet doors are made of a dense foam material . They are very light. The rest of the cabinet is some sort of vinyl clad plywood and is very strong and well constructed. I installed a microwave above the stove and was impressed with how the cabinet was constructed. I recently touredthe AS factory and see they still use it except in the Classic.

[redwoodguy]

The white vinyl clading threw me off course. I have never seen plywood clad in that vinyl. I was too hasty.

The general design of AS embraces the idea of a vehicle, and of travel. Other RVs - I would say nearly 100% of them - desperately hang on to the design of "home." Walking into any other RV - and we saw many at all prices - it is clear that the designers are trying to bring the cozy cottage or lux townhouse vibe into an RV. Stuff like crown moldings, carved banisters, ceramic tile, country wallpaper, wickedly overstuffed chairs, crystal chandeliers, and so on are all home-style aesthetics.

AS was the only RV we saw that looked "fit for travel" - like a small jet. Tidy, trim, sleek, efficient.

We thought the International was the coolest in that regard, but we couldn't afford it, and got the FC.

[TouringDan]

Redwoodguy

That is an interesting observation on the design of AS interiors vs. SOB interiors. I agree with you.

Dan

[Aage]

I think it's possible to do away with a thousand lbs without getting rid of the AC and WH and items of that level of importance to many. If I didn't feel I "needed" those things, I would probably still be packing up a tent when we want to travel.

Go back to the years before they gained that weight. Real wood cabinets, but not an inch and a half thick puffed up glued sawdust. 3/8" ply, one side good, with a decent veneer; that does exist today!

Please, no marble or even corianne counters.

The basics, a la the 1960s, please. What about floors like those used in some Argosy models? The aluminum "sandwich" honeycomb style. Update them, get rid of the springiness and the wood along with it.

And so on. It's not rocket surgery, to quote an old joke. Mr. Wheeler said that they will make them lighter. That is eminently doable, and free of incremental costs, so just do it fer cryin' out loud!

[MrUKToad]

Interesting takes on Airstream's "design philosophy". I'd agree very much with Redwood about the International series, it's interior was a step away from the wood and mouldings of the "homestyle" trailer finishes and was what sold it for us. Of course, the Classic series is still very much in demand, mostly amongst the slightly older set, and it's good to see Bob Wheeler acknowledge that; the Classic may not be for me but I'm glad that Airstream can offer interiors that appeal to a broader spectrum.

In terms of weight saving I think Wheeler will have to work hard to address a cultural issue in the home market where, forgive this foreigner for saying it, bigger is generally felt to be better. Cars and trucks just get bigger all the time and it's not hard to understand why Airstream would match that trend by building bigger and heavier trailers; why not? There are plenty of vehicles available to tow them with power to spare. Wheeler will have one thing to help him, of course, and that is the cost of gas. Europeans have been paying very high gas prices for decades so it has been in their interests to build smaller and more economical cars and by extention, lighter trailers. Now that North Americans are having to pay more for gas, the bigger is better trend will have to be addressed both by the vehicle manufacturers and the vehicle buying population. Again, by extention, Airstream will have to address the weight of their existing fleet.

The question is, who will jump first? Will the manufacturers of cars (and trailers) produce smaller and more economical vehicles or will the public demand them? Sadly, I've yet to see much movement on the part of either party. Where manufacturers produce North American versions of cars sold in Europe, they're generally bigger and considerably less economical. The public generally don't want small cars, either (yet), so Airstream don't need to move particularly quickly to lighten their trailers if they are following the current trends. Wheeler is at least suggesting that Airstream bucks the trend, jumps first as it were with lighter trailers, but will the public go for them? On current thinking, probably not; at least not until the price of gas starts to head for European levels.