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Old 10-16-2018, 09:41 PM   #1
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1978 31' Sovereign
Lincoln University , Pennsylvania
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 67
And the restoration begins - looking for ideas and guidance!

We just bought a '79 mid-bath Sovereign.

I figured we'd get a couple of trips in this fall with the kids. 1 or 2 trips just to figure this RV'ing thing out before we tried to clean it up too much. Then, my wife struck! She said she was going to do some cleaning. We are now down to bare floors and a hollow aluminum can. Most of the walls are off, pink insulation is mostly off. But, we're in decent shape I think.

The frame I can see around the tanks, etc... looks good to excellent. Light surface rust or clean paint.
We have about 6 - 8" of rotten ply around the back. That last sheet is going to come out and get replaced, along with the angle iron, then apply one of the "fixes".
Belly tank box got damaged some time back - fresh tank doesn't hold water and the box is dented.
A few minor dings in the exterior and need for some paint and polishing. Otherwise, we are in good shape.

Plan right now is:
  1. Pull the belly pan and remove everything that makes sense underneath.
  2. Drop the tanks.
  3. Conversion coat what frame I can get to.
  4. Replace the rear sheet of plywood. Either single piece if I can get it in or split it and make a lap joint in the middle.
  5. Seal all of the ply around the edges and topcoat the ply with an appropriate exterior paint / sealer.
  6. Rebuild the rear frame to shell interface (we don't have any frame sag right now).
  7. Replace all underside wiring. May add a conduit from the front to the mid-section. Possibly another from the mid-section to the rear bed area.
  8. Re-insulate - looking for thoughts on this...
  9. Replace tanks, belly boxes and belly pan.

But, I'm looking for insight from the collective here. What should we be watching out for? Thoughts on belly insulation, rear end repair, etc...
How hard is it to dolly out the light exterior dents, or do I hunt down one of my aircraft buddies?

Happy to be here and hopefully Strut Airstream will be on the road before TOOO long. Kids love "Planes".
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Old 10-17-2018, 07:48 AM   #2
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1974 27' Overlander
Baltimore , Maryland
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Welcome. Looks to be in pretty good shape. I suggest you save everything until you're done, even if you plan to replace it. You never know what you're going to end up needing.

I like rockwool for insulation. It's easy to work with and you don't end up with voids like you do with fiberglass. Whatever you choose, you can only pack so much r-value in an inch and a half. The best thing you can do for your insulation is to add a thermal break between your ribs and the interior skins, so they're not conducting heat straight past your insulation.
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Old 10-17-2018, 08:11 AM   #3
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1967 26' Overlander
Alpine , Texas
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Welcome and will be watching . Do you have a warm place to work ? Good luck , lots of info on this site . Blue
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Old 10-17-2018, 08:53 AM   #4
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1972 31' Sovereign
Lexington , Minnesota
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Lots of info on insulation here: there's even a thread where someone compared multiple insulation types. Just google it.
We did a lot of reading here and learned a lot from others as we did our rebuild. Our thread is in the 70's section under "Little Girl Refurb". We ended up with a little different layout than many, and our 31ft trailer sleeps 2, sounds like
not what you want. There's a vintage trailer section to the forums that shows many trailer layouts over the years. That's where I found ours, and then tweaked it.
There are many threads on restorations and rebuilds, they make for good reading during snowstorms, and can give you lots of ideas. There's a thread here that lists them somewhere...
Minor dings and dents just add to the patina of the trailer, but if you want to work out dents, now's the time with inner skins off. We only had one that bugged us, by the door where the doorknob someone had put on hit the shell and dented it. We put a Minnesota shaped aluminum cover over it. Taking off any clear coat that's left will improve the look of your trailer immensely and is worth the work.
Good luck, and I look forward to reading your thread!

Kay
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Old 10-17-2018, 09:37 AM   #5
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1972 29' Ambassador
Boynton Beach , Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andymeyer View Post

Plan right now is:
  1. Pull the belly pan and remove everything that makes sense underneath.
  2. Drop the tanks.
  3. Conversion coat what frame I can get to.
  4. Replace the rear sheet of plywood. Either single piece if I can get it in or split it and make a lap joint in the middle.
  5. Seal all of the ply around the edges and topcoat the ply with an appropriate exterior paint / sealer.
  6. Rebuild the rear frame to shell interface (we don't have any frame sag right now).
  7. Replace all underside wiring. May add a conduit from the front to the mid-section. Possibly another from the mid-section to the rear bed area.
  8. Re-insulate - looking for thoughts on this...
  9. Replace tanks, belly boxes and belly pan.

But, I'm looking for insight from the collective here. What should we be watching out for? Thoughts on belly insulation, rear end repair, etc...
How hard is it to dolly out the light exterior dents, or do I hunt down one of my aircraft buddies?
I found that replacing the floor ply in smaller pieces was easier. You can lever up a section, slide the funky piece out and a new piece in. I sistered on a patch underneath, and it was solid. Using a penetrating sealer, especially on the edges, is a good idea. I used Thompson's, it's cheap and easy, so it always gets done. Something to remember is that if you try to go for a super-waterproof on your subfloor, you can trap water inside if it does leak. This could cause more problems than just leaving the wood bare!

What insulation to use can be a contentious subject on this Forum. I also like rockwool, combined with butyl rubber tape to make for a thermal break. Others will have different opinions! Save your existing skins, even if you want to replace them, as they make for great templates.

Conduit would be a cool idea! I've run strings alongside wire runs for future mods, with varying success.

The consensus here is that POR-15 makes for the best frame paint.

Do a search on dent removal, there are some interesting ways to do this. You are limited, in that aluminum stretches more than steel does. If you have aircraft buddies available, go to them first! In a worst case situation, you can always buy replacement panels ($$$).

Good luck, keep us all posted!
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Old 10-17-2018, 02:06 PM   #6
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I would replace all of the fresh water plumbing system (pump, valves, and piping). I like PEX, using manifolds you can do home runs with the 1/2" size. I would not use "shark-bite" type fittings. I would also install a small bladder tank the size you find on top of a residential water heater.


If you are going to work on the rear frame consider strengthen the main longitudinal frame members from the bumper to the second cross member. If you sub this out, your welder person will likely have a good suggestion as to the material to use.
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Old 10-20-2018, 10:45 AM   #7
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1978 31' Sovereign
Lincoln University , Pennsylvania
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Thanks for the info.

We kept most of the parts for patterns. Some cabinets and stuff wasn't in the greatest of shape so we disposed of some. Kept all of the skins for patterns or for re-use.

How does the insulation attach in the belly to the floorboards? Obviously Rockwool or Fiberglass will sag down onto the bellypan (bad for corrosion / drying. Are we better bonding 2" foam sheet to the floorboards from underneath? Squirt foam to seal the gaps? Or, do we just not worry about the belly insulation which I hear some do?

What dimension butyl rubber tape is recommended for the thermal break? Tape the ribs and rivet through it I assume.

Joyflea, Well, we're going to do our best with a warm place to work. Might just be me freezing my butt for a bit. Going to try to get the belly done before it gets too cold. Our schedule hasn't been conducive lately though. We figure if we get it sealed up, we can get a new heater installed and use that while we work.

Once we pull the rear sheet of ply and the belly pan, I plan to corroseal as much of the frame as I can get to. So far, the frame we can see by the water tanks still has paint so that it reassuring, and we don't have any separation in the rear so...

We've got 3 leaks in the roof that we've found so far. What's the best sealant to use? Clean up the area the best we can, put some vacuum on the inside to draw the sealant in and apply it to the outside? We're removing the old TV aerial as well. What's the ideal technique for filling those holes? Flush riveted path plate or just bond in a flush patch?

As we make more progress, we'll post more pictures. Might turn this into a resto process post that can be followed along...
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Old 10-21-2018, 09:15 AM   #8
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We did not re-insulate under the floor. Instead we used floating cork floor that is 1/2 inch thick. The floor is quite warm in cold weather. We don't winter camp so it works for us.
There are several ways to seal leaks: Sikaflex or Captain Tolly's Crack sealer are 2 good ones. They are thin and will wick into the seam. You may need several applications to seal the seam. Be aware also that water travels so your leak may be several feet away from where it's coming into the trailer.
We (well, this one was all Chris) covered our roof hole, that was very corroded from someone using silicone for the antenna, with a piece of aluminum sealed with vulkem and riveted on. Make sure if you're using silicone on aluminum, that it's formulated for aluminum. Old ones weren't.

Kay
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Old 10-22-2018, 08:36 AM   #9
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1972 29' Ambassador
Boynton Beach , Florida
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Once you get all of roof holes patched with riveted aluminum (https://goo.gl/DxdKAX), and the seams sealed with TremPro 635 (https://goo.gl/9msbhL), you might consider painting the top white with a trailer roof sealer. I used this stuff called Bus Kote, but wound up paying about $150 to do my roof. Seems more expensive than necessary. Heat transfer through the roof is monstrous; here in S. Fla, we need all the help we can get!
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Old 10-30-2018, 08:26 PM   #10
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1978 31' Sovereign
Lincoln University , Pennsylvania
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Minno, Thanks for the pointers on the sealants to use - we've got a few leaks to chase down... Fortunately, we're mostly gutted now so they are easy to find. Might have to do like you on the antenna holes as well. I want that thing gone.

Suzy, we're a bit further north, but I'm going to look into options for ensuring that the roof is sealed. Putting 2 to 4 flexible solar panels may help with the sealing, but may have us give up some thermal performance - or gain some. Not sure whether we'll need more cooling or heating up north here in PA / MD area.

Dropped the tanks this weekend. Came out pretty easy, though we broke the valve off the black water tank. Plastic valve was aged pretty bad anyways so I'll probably replace both of those. Metal boxes were both dented and some corrosion. Dent is out of the dirty water box. Leak in the fresh water tank was just a drain fitting broken on the bottom. The boxes are getting painted...

Now to pull the belly skin and get the belly cleaned out

Still not sure on the flooring insulation. Rock wool or glue in pink foam to as much of the bottom as I can and fill gaps with rock wool. Rest of the insulation will likely be rock wool. Does the bubble wrap reflective stuff make much of a difference over just rock wool? My knowledge of heat transfer says no; is it doing anything more than insulating? (Noise, condensation, bugs...?)

What else needs to go back in before putting the tanks, tank boxes and belly pan back in? Wiring? Water lines? I think all of that is above floor grade, right? (one water line goes from street to curb. Brake wires don't run in the belly, do they? What am I forgetting?

Thanks!

Andy and Laura
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Old 11-01-2018, 08:12 AM   #11
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1972 31' Sovereign
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Your tub/shower drain may hang down into your belly pan depending on how much head room you want in the shower. We dropped ours down below the floor a few inches for more headroom for hubby (I don't need it at 4'10"). Just a thought.
Suit up when you drop the belly - ours was pretty nasty! Chris wore a one piece paint style suit with goggles.

Kay
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Old 11-02-2018, 06:51 PM   #12
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1978 31' Sovereign
Lincoln University , Pennsylvania
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Okay, Question here...

Pulled the trim strip from the side and was surprised to find the Banana panels and the side to belly skirts outside of the main body skin, as seen in the photo below. I would have figured the side skirts and banana panels would have been under the skins to preclude water from running into the belly. Do I fix this by
  1. Putting it back together the same way, but with sealant in that gap to keep the water out, or
  2. Trim the side skirts and banana panels to fit under the side skins and re-rivet it all together.
I'm leaning towards 2, but that'll be a ton of work to get those trimmed up just right.

Was hoping not to pull that strip or the bananas, but I've got a badly dented and repaired one and dented again... Pulled it hoping to give to a buddy with an english wheel - not sure if it can be saved. That's when the wife said "Pull 'em all since we're in this far!"

Thoughts?

Andy
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Old 11-02-2018, 07:33 PM   #13
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1971 21' Globetrotter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andymeyer View Post
Okay, Question here...

Pulled the trim strip from the side and was surprised to find the Banana panels and the side to belly skirts outside of the main body skin, as seen in the photo below. I would have figured the side skirts and banana panels would have been under the skins to preclude water from running into the belly. Do I fix this by
  1. Putting it back together the same way, but with sealant in that gap to keep the water out, or
  2. Trim the side skirts and banana panels to fit under the side skins and re-rivet it all together.
I'm leaning towards 2, but that'll be a ton of work to get those trimmed up just right.

Was hoping not to pull that strip or the bananas, but I've got a badly dented and repaired one and dented again... Pulled it hoping to give to a buddy with an english wheel - not sure if it can be saved. That's when the wife said "Pull 'em all since we're in this far!"

Thoughts?

Andy
I reinstalled the banana wraps and side panels under the side skins. It wasn't a problem, pics in my thread below.
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Old 11-02-2018, 07:34 PM   #14
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1974 27' Overlander
Baltimore , Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andymeyer View Post
Okay, Question here...

Pulled the trim strip from the side and was surprised to find the Banana panels and the side to belly skirts outside of the main body skin, as seen in the photo below. I would have figured the side skirts and banana panels would have been under the skins to preclude water from running into the belly. Do I fix this by
  1. Putting it back together the same way, but with sealant in that gap to keep the water out, or
  2. Trim the side skirts and banana panels to fit under the side skins and re-rivet it all together.
I'm leaning towards 2, but that'll be a ton of work to get those trimmed up just right.

Was hoping not to pull that strip or the bananas, but I've got a badly dented and repaired one and dented again... Pulled it hoping to give to a buddy with an english wheel - not sure if it can be saved. That's when the wife said "Pull 'em all since we're in this far!"

Thoughts?

Andy
IMO, not worth it to change it. Yes, it's worthwhile to keep water out of the belly pan as much as practical, but when I had the opportunity, it just seemed to be way too much work. I just put a bunch of sikaflex under the trim strip and sealed the top of the trim strip once it was in place. As long as I maintain that seal along with all the other seals, water shouldn't make it behind the trim.
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Old 11-03-2018, 08:26 AM   #15
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Ours were short of the floor at some spots which accounted for rotted spots forward in the trailer. We reinstalled with banana wraps and skirts under the side panels, sealed with Trempro.
If your banana wraps are dented, you can pound them back into shape with automotive body work hammers. The metal, I was told (by an expert here on the forums that I trust), is aluminum alloy and you can reshape them without stretching them. I did this for our trailer with no issues. They look better, not perfect. But, hey, our trailer is a '72 and not perfect anyway. It's good therapy for the price of cheap hammers.

Kay
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Old 11-03-2018, 08:05 PM   #16
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Thanks! We pulled the side panels and forward bananas, along with all of the belly pans today... Question on insulation now that I'm this far... Do I glue the foam board with an air gap to the frame (#1 below) or cut smaller pieces and bond them straight to the floor board (#2).

The air gap allows water not to collect against the wood (less wood rot) and possibly dry before causing issues. The frame will be re-painted (Corroseal them painted). It should also allow a bit better insulation (air gap). Thought was 1" foam board - glued to the frame rails and a bit of rock wool to fill the gaps around the edges - allows a bit of breathing.

Minno, I may get my airplane buddy to wheel out the banana that needs it. It's not too bad, but it's been bondo'd in the past. I'm dangerous with hammers!

Looking at using an SEM self etching primer on the underbelly panels (aluminum) to protect them... Replacing a couple of them, but most are serviceable. Looking for a local welder who'll come on site to weld up the rear end of the frame and possibly 2 or 3 outriggers that need it. Might just get a few replacement outriggers once we get the rear wraps off.

Tank boxes - found out why the fresh water tank never held water - looks like both boxes hit the ground along the way and it knocked a little fitting off the fresh water tank. Those boxes will get primed and painted shortly. Thinking that a quick etch with white vinegar and corroseal will have those ready for paint - inside and out. I assume pink insulation is as good as white styro for supporting / insulating the tanks...

Gas lines - I assume they've got to hang int he free air so I don't blow the bottom off this thing if there's a leak. Copper line... Do I need a shut-off at each T, or just one up front - seems like a lot of leak points to have so many valves... I'm not an airplane so if something ain't working, shut the whole thing down and call it a weekend???

What else am I mis-thinking on this thing. Can't wait to have at least the belly closed back up...

I really appreciate the input. If you'd like to see more pics, let me know and I'll get my bride adding those - she's a bit more tech savvy at that stuff.

Andy
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Old 11-04-2018, 08:17 AM   #17
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Yes, gas lines need to be UNDER the belly pan, not in it. We have no shut offs except at the tanks. We covered our exposed gas lines with PEX slid on before we put it in, just for extra "ding" protection. We've never actually had a leak in gas lines caused by road debris in any of our previous SOB trailers, but you never know...

Kay
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Old 11-04-2018, 06:40 PM   #18
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1978 31' Sovereign
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I like the idea of the PEX protecting the lines - one of my concerns. Glad others are getting rid of all of the valves all over the place - no need for 5 of them.

Wife is now the Charlie Daniels of the de-scaler and corrosealing the frame. She got going with that thing and the compressor never stopped.

We have to double up the rear longitudinal C channels and the aft cross bar, as well as probably replace 2 or 3 outriggers. Gonna see if a local welder can come out since most of the wiring is already gone - got ahead of ourselves! Might take it to someone super local when traffic isn't too busy, or once I get power re-figured out and hooked back up.

Starting to look at power options. I want to replace our fuse panel as I think it's about as much of a fire risk as not having one (got to wiggle a couple of the to get things to work right now. I'm putting all new electronics in - wire, breakers, converter, fuse panel, solar charging, etc... What's the consensus these days for this and how do you keep the 120V charger from fighting with the solar? (120V relay to turn off solar charging?) Planning on 200W worth of flexible solar panels bonded to the roof - in parallel - for a 12V system - expandable to 4, possibly 6 panels in the future, but unlikely. (Never heard someone say they had too much power.)

I can't seem to find a comprehensive wiring diagram that shows how to make it all work and keep everything from fighting.
  • Shore power to power 120V outlets.
  • 120V shore to charge batteries.
  • 120V shore to converter for 12V power.
  • Solar power to charge 12V battery / provide 12V power.
  • 2000W inverter to provide 120V when not on shore power.
  • Mr. Fusion to keep beer cold and brew wife's coffee.

Thanks!

Andy and Laura
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Old 11-11-2018, 05:19 PM   #19
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1978 31' Sovereign
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Another good day...

We had a great Sunday attacking the trailer.
Laura went nuts with the descaler cleaning the rust off, then corrosealing the frame.
I got the rear sheet of plywood out, rear bumper removed, tank box insides painted, forward parts of the frame painted (we cleaned and corrosealed those last weekend.)

HELP! Help me understand what insane person put a sheet of steel between two layers of aluminum? Were they trying to create electricity before solar was the rage? What's the fix here? The horizontal portion of this is gone. Half of the vertical portion still exists, the other half is blooming and forcing the aluminum apart.

My thought is to :
  • Remove it all together. Slide a thin strip of Al in to fill the slot.
  • I assume that this piece is there to stiffen the rear straight section. Can I lay a 1/8" steel or 3/16" Al x1" slab in here horizontally in the top of the U channel to provide the same function? Or, an angle iron / angle Al in the same place?
  • Flash the rear edge of the trailer to eliminate water intrusion in this area.
We've got a welder lined up to rebuild the lateral frame in back along with the last 2 - 3 feet of the right side longeron on the frame. He'll also be replacing 6 outriggers and we found another thin section on the frame that we'll have an angle or fish put in to stiffen. Laura drove through it with the descaler.

Thanks!

Andy and Laura
Oh, and we're WBCCI #7312. Our kids birth months... 7, 3, and 12...
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Old 11-13-2018, 06:35 PM   #20
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1975 27' Overlander
1969 21' Globetrotter
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Hi andymeyer: You mentioned your project thread so I had to take a look. I think you've done more in 3 weeks than many of us do in three months. Great job.

Airstream builds the body, and then they build the frame and belly pan with all the parts assembled. Then they "marry' the two together. As a result, the exterior skins are inside of the banana wraps. My Overlander is build the same way. My trailer was very well sealed between these two pieces of aluminum. Further, my trailer was built with a upside down "F" floor channel that encapsulated the subfloor along the sides of the body, but not the front or rear end caps. I've never been too concerned about water getting into the "basement" beneath the subfloor. I drill drain holes to let it drip out and then dry out.

I believe you can find a wiring diagram on the internet somewhere. I do have one for my 75 Overlander. If you think it would help you, I can shoot a picture of it and post it here. It won't have anything about inverters and the like of course.

Press on regardless.

David
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