professional on retainer

[tinman54]

Quote: EuroAir(I think some of you guys make this way to complicated citing legal issues) Sounds like a great idea Frank!! Experience is much more of a qualifier then a piece of paper on the wall! You do excellent and quality work which is proven on your blog and listening to you on the VAP.
Good luck, hope you can make it work

[dwightdi]

After 40 years with a ME degree and plastics experience, I retired from my full time job, but continued as a retained consultant with the last employer. They were interested in not seeing me at a competitor. I participated in Plastics forums with hopes of developing a business in non-competing areas. I gave out lots of free information but never was able to make a dime off it. People who want free information are not in the positions in companies that allow them to give out consulting contracts either retained or by the job. Liability issues should not be overlooked.

[Gene]

No matter what your credentials and titles may be, liability insurance is important. But if we need to go to a licensed engineer to restore an Airstream, we are in trouble. Some licensed lawyers aren't very good at actually doing law and some people represent themselves better than most lawyers would.

Gene

[tinman54]

People that are doing there own thing, whether it be working on a trailer, their home, car or?? need to be responsible for their own actions no mater where they get their ideas from.
Attorneys make it sound like they are doing their clients a favor by helping them out with a problem they created themselves, they are just make a dollar, not all attorneys act like this but those are the ones you here about. No matter what a person wants to do these days if you look far enough into the rules and laws there would be a reason not to do it!

Doug

[silverwoman]

A waiver is a good idea. People sue over everything. Maybe you would need to be prepared to travel to do this onsite was a good point. Look at it as an experiment ie the scientific method. Make a plan & try it out, see what works & what doesn't work & go from there. Many people can't afford to take their project to a restoration shop & might just like to have a consultation before they start. After the initial visit ( plan out what your service includes ) & include "follow up" or ongoing virtual guidance to see the project through to completion.

You also might consider contracting with a local reputable restoration shop that would send you out when folks call them before they commit to having their trailer restored. That way you have a 2nd party helping you find business & you help the shop get business at the same time so 1 hand washes the other.

You could limit your travel as wish...maybe a tri state radius or in state ~ which ever you feel you could handle.

[danlehosky]

The sad truth is after 35 + years in the heavy construction industry, things are complicated and people will resort to litigation to solve a problem. I have been in court rooms where having certifications made all of the difference.
I was not trying to complicate things for Frank, only warn him of some potential problems. Consulting can be complicated. People depend on the information you give them to be accurate and to solve their problems.

Of course you don't need to be a ME or a SE to figure out the systems or structures for a trailer, but my point is....if you have that piece of paper of qualification you will be in a much better position to defend yourself when problems arise.
I have only seen examples of Franks work on this Forum, but they all look beautiful and functional.
State Licencing Boards while a huge pain in the A$$ do set minimum requirements for licencing and compentency and usually have a program of continuing education that you must complete in to renew your liceencing.
Be careful Frank, I've had some wierd sH*T jump up and bite me over the years.Lots of people are quite competently able to defend theirselves in court. I've tried to do it twice, both times over contractual issues. Once I was sucsessful and once I faced a lawyer who took then time to do his work and he blew me out of the water with technicalities.
"Be careful out there guys"

Dan

[Melody Ranch]

These "things" we are working on are, after all, just a trailer. Probably the simplest of all hobbies. All the work on them is well within your capabilities. If you need a question answered...the answer is readily available on the internet, other owners and sites like this. Albuquerque restoration rally for another example. If that won't work for you, take it to any of the great folks here who are experienced and can get the job done in a reasonable time. (Thats another story.) Remember, it is just a trailer.

[Skater]

Originally Posted by tinman54

People that are doing there own thing, whether it be working on a trailer, their home, car or?? need to be responsible for their own actions no mater where they get their ideas from.

That's a great sentiment, but it wouldn't help Frank if someone decides to sue him for something. Hell, since they're phone calls, the person could say Frank told him to do "A", when Frank actually said do "B" and don't don't don't even consider "A".

Sorry, Frank - I know how you feel. I wrote a website for guests of our wedding to respond online, and my brother was trying to get me to market it. Erm, no, I don't want to get into messing with people's weddings. That sounds like a lawsuit just waiting to happen! I can picture it: "The website was down for 5 minutes 4 months before the wedding! You've ruined my wedding day! I'll see you in court!!"

Anyway, the waiver idea sounds good - but get legal advice from a lawyer, not me or the internet.

[Frank's Trailer Works]

I wanted to thank all of you for your input. I have come to the conclusion that I have enough on my plate already. I will however share with you some thoughts...
*Not everyone out there does it for the money. Some of you should realize that. There are still a few people left that do what they do because they are passionate about it. Being able to sometimes pay the bills is a plus.
*Where would someone go to become accredited? Is there a Vintage Trailer Restoration School out there? I thought not.
*I have never in my life heard as much absolute Bull$&^@ about liability and law suits as I have in this Airstream community. I have worked in the service industry almost my entire life, never did I hear it discussed. You people(if you are offended, you should be) need to take that fear mongering some place else because it is sucking the life out of a great hobby.
* I will continue to give free advice to anyone wanting it. It is worth what it costs you.

[Gene]

Frank, you sum it up well. Insurance is for liability, otherwise there is really minor danger of being sued, though some people are. Sometimes they are sued because they should be. If everyone believed liability was such a big issue, nobody would open any business or leave the house.

Gene

[silverwoman]

I agree. It's not always about the money nor should it be but we live in a culture where money is what is required to survive so we are all affected by it. The problem is the system or the socio-economic system itself and what it produces - what it reinforces from fear to greed to death as in war. It would be great to live in a world where money wasn't necessary. We would see aberrant behavior disappear when values change but for now, we don't live in that world unfortunately. I volunteer for a sustainability non profit and use my own money ( I don't have much ) to fund events. I work with websites and printed material and I know that if I use a photo that's not creative commons, that someone can sue me for it even though I do not profit from what I do so I'm very careful about what I use because I don't want to deal with something like that. I work very hard to help the effort to move us into more advanced culture memes like abundance for all the people in the world and the earth is my home and all people are my family. We are products of our environment and the current culture. The best we can do is be the change we want to see in the world, have compassion for everyone and always choose love over fear. <3 Jayme

[mutcth]

The thing that I want is "trailer fixing school." Not that I'm unhandy, but I'm not particularly confident that I'm doing something right, especially if it's new. (I also get frustrated and throw tools on occasion.) I've put in an Olympic rivet or two, but aren't quite sure I did it right. (The well-known restoration rallies are far away from here.) I might wire in a light this weekend.

I admit to thinking, if I had Frank renovate a trailer for me, maybe I'd go there for a week and learn how to do certain things. Then I could tow the trailer back, do some work to it, and go back for the next installment.

Ultimately this requires figuring out which is worth more: free time to go kayaking or camping with the Argosy/(insert modern trailer here), or working on a trailer. But that's a question everyone needs to solve for themselves.

Frank, I think there is something to your idea. But I'm also becoming more and more convinced that it's important to know when enough workload is enough, so I understand your choices there. I also wonder if you would get as much satisfaction consulting - I know you're a helpful guy - as you do creating something with your own hands.

Tom

[ventport]

I would be willing to consult with you on your idea of a hired consultant for $40 an hour. Let me know, I won't charge you for letting me know you want to consult with me.

[lewster]

Frank,

You have a good idea, one that I have thought of myself....OFTEN! I also spend an inordinate amount of my time 'consulting' with clients (either current, potential or imagined) about their problems. Sometimes it results in a service call, often times not (especially when the topic is solar for RV use).

Having a Master's Degree in Engineering, I learned early on that qualifications and certifications were definitely worth the trouble (this is my view, and my experience only). After realizing that my place in the corporate world was like trying to mix oil and water, I chose another path....that of a goldsmith! (it's a loooong story!!)

After a few years in the jewelry business, I realized that certifications were necessary and valuable here also, so I pursued Graduate Gemologist and Master Certified Jeweler certificates. These not only helped build my business but gave me a high degree of credibility and expertise that my competitors didn't have. It also gave me credence in the area of appraisals, one where litigation is a very real possibility.

When the jewelry business started to wane, the RV repair field seemed to come along naturally, as I was full-timing in a 40' diesel motorhome at the time and was doing a lot of fixing for myself and others in the RV park. Again, certification not only became a badge that was to be worn on my shirt sleeve, but also gave me a certain degree of expertise and credibility only attained by study and testing when I decided to pursue this as a profession.

While there are many who can and do perform exceptional work in their chosen fields without any type of 'papers', there are certain areas that certainly benefit from additional certification and licensing. These would be ones that can have dire consequences if not executed properly, say running gear, brakes, electrical and LP work. These consequences should be obvious should there be a real problem in one of these areas. Think about building a home without the services of a licensed electrician or plumber.

Whatever you choose to do...........keep up the good work!

[SmokelessJoe]

Did I miss something here? I thought Frank had decided several posts ago.

Melody Ranch said it best: these are just trailers, folks.


Sergei

[jm2]

Originally Posted by mutcth

The thing that I want is "trailer fixing school." Not that I'm unhandy, but I'm not particularly confident that I'm doing something right, especially if it's new.

Tom,

there is a "trailer fixing school", aka the 4CU Vintage Restoration Rally

Gabrielle & I did the rally in 2009 and 2011, and what we have learned there has been invaluable, and a lot of fun, too!

pix here 2009 and 2011

we clearly learned that if we wanted to actually camp in 2009 in an Airstream, we were going to have to find something "newer" to begin with, thus the 2002 Safari 25C.... and it saved us from buying at least one vintage trailer that would have become a nightmare!

Albuquerque, NM is essentially 2000 miles from where we live, so we fly out instead and stay on-site in one of 6 trailers for rent at the campground where the rally is held.

iirc, I think "reinergirl" from NH is heading out for the 2012 rally.

suffice it to say that we highly recommend attending to anyone wanting to learn more about "how it's done".

you won't be as smart as Frank (who doesn't merely give you his time when you ask a question, but his heart and his passion, too!) but it will give you some real appreciation for the work.

best,

[jgerardi]

It would seem obvious to me, that a few hundred dollars spent on a good "consultant" would have great return on investment. I can't imagine getting through a restoration project without a few costly, avoidable, rookie mistakes. I would bet many forum members could tell tales of expensive misadventures past and lessons leaned.

[Nuvite-F]

Originally Posted by 62overlander

I wanted to thank all of you for your input. I have come to the conclusion that I have enough on my plate already. I will however share with you some thoughts...

*I have never in my life heard as much absolute Bull$&^@ about liability and law suits as I have in this Airstream community. I have worked in the service industry almost my entire life, never did I hear it discussed. You people (if you are offended, you should be) need to take that fear mongering some place else because it is sucking the life out of a great hobby.

Frank, I hope you won't mind if I point out what a typical Airforums thread this has become!

It began with the Original Poster (you) asking a perfectly legitimate question.

In response to this question you received a gamut of replies.

Some thought it was a fantastic idea,

Some raised the specter of the wicked plaintiff's attorneys cleaning you out of your hard-earned wealth,

One (me) pointed out The Bureaucrats'll Getcha Ef Ya Don't Watch Out. (With apologies to James Whitcomb Riley.)

Some of these answers you liked, and some you didn't, so the thread effectively ends with name calling against the "fear mongers" whose answers you didn't like.

Compare this with another typical kind of thread,

"I want to tow a 31 ft Sovereign with my Yugo. Can I do that?"

Some will say it's a great idea, just make sure to get things set up by CanAm RV,

Some will say you're crazy and a menace to everyone else on the road,

And the thread will rapidly degenerate into name calling.

All of which comports with your own observation--that free advice is worth what you pay for it!
.

[Gene]

I understand Lew's argument for certification. When I call a doctor's office and they tell me I can see a physician's assistant, I tell them I want to see a doctor. I know doctors with all their training can't keep up on everything, so why should I go to a PA who has less training. It is possible the PA is a better healer than the doctor, so I'm playing the odds.

Of course, I've done lots of electrical and plumbing work in my own houses without benefit of a license and nothing has burned down yet and the water is still running out of the right faucets. I would have done it faster if I'd gone to school for it, but that doesn't make sense in this example.

If Frank decided to become a consultant, he could go to an RV school, but what if he could teach there because of his experience, and would be wasting his time as a student? And he'd have to close his shop while he did that if there were no schools nearby, costing him more money. Maybe he'd end up as a "certified RV mechanic", but "certified" by who? Some certifications are made up.

So, there are no ready answers.

Frank posted he wouldn't pursue this idea, and maybe this is a time to think through this a little more. Maybe after a while, and some more thinking, he'll come back to it with a plan. We'll see.

I did go to school for a profession. One of things we learned over and over was to anticipate problems. This is necessary in solving problems and creating new things. We can get carried away with that and tell clients so many pitfalls that they decide not to do anything because of the possible problems that may come up. With an overemphasis on problems that may happen, no one would ever start a new business or go outside*. When I started to see them go down that negative road I would suggest insurance is part of the mix and the other is competence (insurance doesn't cover everything). Competence brings us back to training and experience.

There are a variety of factors to consider. There are no easy answers. Many people make decisions based on their personalities—scared people do not start new businesses very often. Maybe Frank should see a business consultant (certified, of course) and talk to other people who have done similar things. Asking the question here is a good first step and more may come. Part of running a business is promoting it and Frank does a very good job of doing that here by offering advice for free and showing his passion for all things Airstream.

Gene

*It is often said your home is the most dangerous place you can be and that more accidents happen there, so it may be better to go outside, but outside means wild animals, people with flu coughing in your direction, meteorites falling on (and in) your head, cars being driven on the sidewalk, crazed people with machetes, zombies— and that is just the beginning. Any action requires thought and some training can help—your parents probably trained you on the joys and dangers of outside.

[Frank's Trailer Works]

I started this thread in order to find out if there was a market for such services. I do not intend to pursue it, for I have more than enough on my plate already. To be totally honest, I never intended to do this anyhow, I was asking to find out "if" there was a market. Oddly, 9:1 say yes. Not everyone responds on a thread. Some respond through phone calls, emails, and the good old "thanks" button.
I have been self employed longer than I was employed by others at this point in my life. I started a cabinet business and ran it all alone for many years. When I decided to change directions in my life I was making 6 figures without even trying to. I know all about liability insurance, umbrella policies, and one, no one has mentioned, bonds. I carried a three million dollar bond for many, many years. I could perhaps consult on business insurance to a few reading this right now.
Last time I checked this was America. In the America I know, we are all free to choose how and where we earn our living. The last contractor I worked for before I started FTW, swam across the Rio Grande with a $10 bill in his pocket. He learned english(speaks it better than most so called Americans) became a citizen, and started a business doing odd jobs. 16 years later he is worth a few dozen million. We really do live in the the land of opportunity where people are free to pursue their dreams.
Thank you everyone for your input. It was almost, all appreciated.