Water Filtering Suggestions Please

[bigcountry]

I understand that several owners use the Camco style external water filter.

I'm wanting to filter at a higher level than the single Camco style does.

My wishlist...
1) external filter system preferred
2) filter out solid and non-solid bad guys
3) a way to measure when filters need replace or clean
4) filter incoming water before distribution to internal plumbing
5) portable for easy move to future rigs if I sell and re-purchase
6) have peace of mind that water in the system is safe to store in tanks, safe to bath with, safe to brush teeth with, will maximize plumbing fixture life, etc...
7) we will have a separate filter pitcher strategy for only drinking water, but I would like the incoming system water to be as nearly safe to drink as possible.

I will consider internal filters, but I do not want to make significant interior modifications for an internal system if possible.

I'm hoping some water filter nerds can point a newbie in the right direction.

THANKS!!!!

[AWCHIEF]

This is the system I have been using for about a year. Far as I can tell it is working as advertised.

https://www.rvwaterfilterstore.com/B2413.htm

[uncle_bob]

Hi

It sounds like what you are after is closer to an RO + UV setup than a filter system .....As with that sort of system, the question quickly becomes - how many gallons per hour are you happy with?

Bob

[bigcountry]

Thanks for the link AWCHIEF...I'm going to check it out.

uncle bob, I am hoping to stop at options just short of a
full RO +UV system. It would be a nice set up though.

[Adventure.AS]

There are two problematic issues with an external filter system to consider. 1. Why filter water that is used to flush the toilet or for showering? 2. If your filter takes out the chlorine in the municipal water supply then it will no longer maintain the protection provided by the chlorine while it is in your fresh water tank.

I use the Camco filter externally to remove large particulates and an internal filter that is attached to a dedicated tap for drinking water. The Seagull IV is not cheap but the Seagull IV systems excel at removing bacteria, cysts and viruses as well as chemical and aesthetic contaminants including herbicides, pesticides, chlorine and foul tastes, odors and colors. It will remove the chlorine too, but only as you draw the water from the tank for use. It has a flow rate of 1 gpm and will filter 1,000 gallons with a particle retention rating of 0.4 micron

[TheGreatleys]

I've been in the water treatment field for 10 years. Recommendations will depend on what your concerns are. Here's a quick summary.

Visible Particles. Generally, this is anything 5 microns or bigger. Includes silt, sand, large iron particles, plankton, fish, crocodiles... You can filter this out with any filter rated for 5 microns.

Invisible Particles. Anything filterable but smaller than 5 microns. Colloidal iron, cysts, etc. You can get a 1 micron cartridge, or a carbon block which is typically 0.2 microns (note that this is different from a GAC carbon filter). Smaller will catch more stuff but increase filter element cost and decrease filter life. Anything smaller than that is getting into ultrafiltration and RO, which is not practical for a point of entry system.

TOC. Carbon containing molecules, usually man-made pollutants. Leaky gas station tanks, oil, disinfection byproducts (chlorinating a water supply that contains organics can produce a laundry list of carcinogens). A GAC carbon or carbon block will take care of this group to varying degrees. GAC has higher flow rates and lasts longer, carbon blocks generally will be rated to remove more stuff.

Lead. Typical treatment is a carbon block. Check that it's rated for lead.

Hardness. Lime scale will build up in your water heater, causing damage and increasing your fuel bill. It decreases the effectiveness of soap, so you end up having to use more soap and water to clean things. Clogs aerators, wears out fixtures, covers everything in soap scum. A water softener exchanges hardness (Ca and Mg) for sodium (Na) which does not cause those problems. It also exchanges a few other things like iron, manganese, radium, most cations. You need to regenerate the water softener with salt periodically.

Bacteria. A UV isn't really practical for RV is unless you have uninterrupted shore power all the time. Every time a UV is turned off, you have to re-sanitize your water system. You can easily kill bacteria by adding bleach to your tanks when you fill, but be careful. If your water contains organics, adding bleach may create some nasty disinfection byproducts, for instance trihalomethane. If you use bleach to disinfect your water and drink from your tanks, you should run the water though a good carbon filter first.

Total dissolved solids. These are the inorganic minerals and salts in your water. They're not necessarily bad, but some of them can be. TDS can be reduced with RO or DI. There are nice household RO systems, but they typically use 2+ gallons of water to make 1 gallon of drinking water, so they're not really practical for RV use unless you have an unlimited water supply. Freezing will destroy an RO membrane. DI is an ion exchange process like softening, but instead of exchanging hardness for sodium, it exchanges cations for H+ and anions for OH-, which combine to form pure H2O. The Zerowater pitcher uses this technology. Regeneration requires separation of the cation and anion resin and the use of some nasty chemicals, so household Zerowater filters are designed to be single use.

So, what should you choose? The most robust system I would suggest would be a carbon block filter followed by an RV softener to fill your tanks. Add bleach to 1PPM at each tank fill, and filter your drinking water with a Zerowater pitcher or your drinking water system of choice (carbon at minimum). That will give you a Fairly broad level of protection for various water supplies.

But what you choose will depend on what your personal priorities are. I use a softener and a Zerowater pitcher, and only sanitize my tanks periodically. I'm in my early 30s with no health problems, so I'm not as careful as someone else might be.

[bigcountry]

Adventure.AS...Thanks for the input on your system. Sounds like a good set up. I am going to study the info that you linked to the Seagull IV drinking water filter system. Sounds like a good option to consider. Great point about consequences of removing chlorine.

TheGreatleys...Thanks for the insights on various water contaminants, what they mean, and how to filter them. Please let me know if you can point me to the water softener device/system that you are using. We already us a Zero Water pitcher and like it. Have been thinking about going to a Berkey water filter container, but like the simplicity of the Zero.

[TheGreatleys]

We are using the "on the go" water softener. You can find it here, but be sure to shop around for the best price.

http://www.campingworld.com/shopping...hoC_YsQAvD_BwE

For the most part, water softener resin is water softener resin, so no need to be brand loyal. Household water softeners have bells and whistles like water meters, digital controls, sensors, warranties, and service contracts that make them different. But the resin inside is the same technology that's been around since Emmett Culligan invented the household water treatment business in the 1930s. An RV softener doesn't have any of those bells and whistles -- it's just a tank full of resin. You need to be able to open it to put the salt in, but otherwise they're all pretty much the same.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

A pretty simple solution to the water issue is to drink bottled (or hauled in) water. Your usage for "other things" is way more than what people consume. The issue with any filter system used intermittently (and not discarded each trip) is keeping up with the darn thing. Two liter bottles of water are pretty darn cheap.

Bob

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

A pretty simple solution to the water issue is to drink bottled (or hauled in) water. Your usage for "other things" is way more than what people consume. The issue with any filter system used intermittently (and not discarded each trip) is keeping up with the darn thing. Two liter bottles of water are pretty darn cheap.

Bob

Not all that simple as bottled water takes up valuable, limited space on board. As well bottled water is very expensive.

According to MoneyCrashers "Bottled water isn’t just more expensive than tap water – it’s a lot more expensive. ...

If you spend $1 on a 16.9-ounce bottle of water, you’re effectively paying $7.57 per gallon – 3,785 times more than you’d pay for the same amount of water from a faucet."

[TheGreatleys]

Different strokes for different folks. Buying bottled water takes care of drinking, but it won't protect your appliances and fixtures. If you're OK with that, and you have space for bottled water, go for it. If you'd prefer to maintain some relatively small treatment equipment to service your needs, that works too. If you're willing to accept the risks that come with drinking water straight from the taps and into your tanks, that's also a viable option.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by bigcountry

I'm hoping some water filter nerds can point a newbie in the right direction.

There is no system of reasonable size, weight, and budget that will make water with an arbitrary combination of unknown contaminants safe and suitable for consumption. You have to be specific on what you're trying to filter out.

I did a quick search for a camco filter and the one I found will remove particulates to 100 microns and has a carbon block, which will remove most chemical contaminants. In reality, you can't do a whole lot better without targeting specific contaminants.

You can get filter housings and the fittings to hook them up to a hose at any home center. e.g. https://jet.com/product/detail/ebddb...2-71ce505a38bf

I use a 1 micron filter in my (stick) house mainly to filter out the clay-like sediment that works its way through the municipal water system. It also picks up some particulate iron that a 100 micron filter would miss. Neither of these things are dangerous to people but over time they make a mess of the plumbing system.

There are RV water softeners available that will remove calcium and manganese, which shouldn't be necessary in Alabama, but might be useful if you're traveling to areas where there is more calcium-bearing rock. They are big and something of a nuisance to maintain.

If the biological purity of the water is in question, chlorination is usually the best approach. There are also microstrainers on the market like the Seagull IV that will remove parasitic organisms, which may allow a shorter contact time or weaker chlorine dose. In cases where parasitic organisms are the major risk, some people consider a microstrainer sufficient by itself. The drinking water filter element on some later Airstream Classics is a microstrainer and carbon block.

And then if it's dissolved salts you want to remove, there's reverse osmosis, which is ordinarily used in combination with other techniques.

[bigcountry]

TheGreatleys: Thanks for the water softener advice and link! I'm going to investigate.

uncle bob &
Adventure.AS &
TheGreatleys: Good points and counter points all. Agreed...water bottles are a possible option. Can't beat the convenience. Can be costly in the big picture. Just depends on preference for convenience vs cost. I want to manage some level of "clean" in the plumbing system (higher than what the local area public water might bring in), so I want to amp up our filtering strategy before water enters the Airstream. I will further filter drinking/cooking water with something like a Zero Water pitcher, a Berkey counter top system, or the Seagull IV system.

Jammer: Agreed...the challenge when traveling is that you never know what you will need to be filtering/treating for. Thanks for the link to Jet.com. Understood that best to hope for is a compromise to level the peaks and valleys a little. Not practical to chase, and target, all variables of water contamination when moving frequently.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by TheGreatleys

Different strokes for different folks. Buying bottled water takes care of drinking, but it won't protect your appliances and fixtures. If you're OK with that, and you have space for bottled water, go for it. If you'd prefer to maintain some relatively small treatment equipment to service your needs, that works too. If you're willing to accept the risks that come with drinking water straight from the taps and into your tanks, that's also a viable option.

Hi

A system that fully meets the needs described in the original post is going to be something that would have a hard time fitting in a 3000 series truck payload wise. Taking care of everything and anything down to the "it doesn't matter level" is not just a matter of buying a cartridge filter. Indeed if you watch the surplus sites, these systems *do* show up from time to time. They are really massive. They also are not cheap to operate on a per gallon basis.

Bob

[TheGreatleys]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

A system that fully meets the needs described in the original post is going to be something that would have a hard time fitting in a 3000 series truck payload wise. Taking care of everything and anything down to the "it doesn't matter level" is not just a matter of buying a cartridge filter. Indeed if you watch the surplus sites, these systems *do* show up from time to time. They are really massive. They also are not cheap to operate on a per gallon basis.

Bob

I disagree. The only reason a system would have to be that large is to have far more capacity than is necessary for this application. We're not talking about filtering pond water or sea water to potable quality for an entire refugee camp. We're talking about reasonable levels of filtration to well and city water prior to using it in an RV.

A carbon block will take care of organics, lead, and particles down to 0.2 microns including cysts. A softener will take care of hardness, most iron, and a bunch of other cations. Chlorine takes care of bacteria, viruses, and H2S. And DI prior to drinking will take care of all remaining dissolved solids.

You could add a calcite filter after the carbon block if you had frequent issues with low pH, but it's probably not worth the trouble for most people.

This equipment doesn't need to be large to be effective. The same technology as larger scale systems works just as well in small scale.

[crispyboy]

I keep things simple, probably too simple.
I have a Camco EVO filter inside of a residential filter housing. The Camco housing has very restrictive openings which cuts down on volume which is why a residential filter housing is used.
So far this works for me as I drink straight from the faucet whether I am hooked up to water or use the onboard tanks.
I drink from a cistern at home that gets an occasional slug of bleach after a good rain. My stomach probably has a good tolerance for bugs. I can normally taste all the chemicals and corrosion inhibitors that are added to public water sources - blah.

[bigcountry]

crispboy...
...Thanks for posting your Camco EVO filter strategy.

TheGreatleys...
...please let me know what the "DI" stands for
"And DI prior to drinking will take care of all remaining dissolved solids."
Thanks

[TheGreatleys]

Originally Posted by bigcountry

crispboy...
...Thanks for posting your Camco EVO filter strategy.

TheGreatleys...
...please let me know what the "DI" stands for
"And DI prior to drinking will take care of all remaining dissolved solids."
Thanks

DI = deionization. It's an ion exchange process (similar to how a water softener works) that exchanges positively charged ions (cations like calcium, iron, sodium) for H+, and negatively charged ions (anions like chloride, carbonate, fluoride) for OH-.

H+ and OH- combine to form H2O, pure water. So essentially DI is exchanging any dissolved solids for pure water. It works so well that the resulting water is a pretty good electrical resistor, up to 18 megohms.

Laboratories use DI to wash glassware and mix reagents. Manufacturing uses DI water to clean circuit boards. Healthcare treats water with DI prior to using it for dialysis. And the Zerowater pitcher uses it to treat drinking water.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by TheGreatleys

I disagree. The only reason a system would have to be that large is to have far more capacity than is necessary for this application. We're not talking about filtering pond water or sea water to potable quality for an entire refugee camp. We're talking about reasonable levels of filtration to well and city water prior to using it in an RV.

A carbon block will take care of organics, lead, and particles down to 0.2 microns including cysts. A softener will take care of hardness, most iron, and a bunch of other cations. Chlorine takes care of bacteria, viruses, and H2S. And DI prior to drinking will take care of all remaining dissolved solids.

You could add a calcite filter after the carbon block if you had frequent issues with low pH, but it's probably not worth the trouble for most people.

This equipment doesn't need to be large to be effective. The same technology as larger scale systems works just as well in small scale.

Hi

If you want to take out "all the solid and non-solid bad guys" that's a mighty big requirement. It covers any form of organic or inorganic contaminant. It covers things that will kill you and things that are simply unpleasant. Add to it the desire to "measure when the filter is exhausted". Carbon, resin, or whatever only works for a limited period of time. How long depends on what you are hitting it with. Once's it's exhausted, no more protection. Measuring when you hit that point for all possible contaminants .... yikes ....

There really is no guarantee that what you bring in *is* any better than swamp water. The gotcha of a "super filter" is that you take more risks. "My filter will protect me". Take a look at the data on anti-skid brakes as an example of this.

Bob

[Rg416]

Thanks everyone for this interesting thread. Lots of great information.

I'm new to RVing and have used a Camco filter thus far. We currently use bottled water for drinking. I've thought about using a Zerowater pitcher, but haven't yet due to the space it takes up. Don't think it would fit in the fridge. It's easier to put a gallon in the closet and another outside.

The filter suggested by AWChief looks good in that it seems as simple as the Camco type but I imagine somewhat more effective.

A question for TheGreatleys, if I'm to have 1ppm of bleach in the freshwater tank, what does that translate to for my 20 gallon tank on a 22FB?

Thanks to everyone for your experience and expertise!

Rich