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Old 07-17-2012, 11:27 AM   #29
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[QUOTE=StreamRollin;1175367]
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Finally a female perspective on the issue. Still, why do I feel patronized, like a handicapped kid being told he's "special"?

That's the 'Mom' in us ... LOL I surely didn't mean to sound patronizing ... and FYI, I'll take a high testosterone, shoot-em-up, hang-em-high, blow up the compound, action packed flick over a sappy romance any day Wendy
I'm not really offended, either. That whole "feeling patronized" thing was meant tongue-in-cheek. And now, back to our regularly-scheduled program…
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Old 07-17-2012, 11:37 AM   #30
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See how she makes it so easy to manipulate the situation? This is scary how they can out-maneuver us.

We have to shape up guys or we will never again have that supreme authority position at the top.

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[QUOTE=StreamRollin;1175367]
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Finally a female perspective on the issue. Still, why do I feel patronized, like a handicapped kid being told he's "special"?

That's the 'Mom' in us ... LOL I surely didn't mean to sound patronizing ... and FYI, I'll take a high testosterone, shoot-em-up, hang-em-high, blow up the compound, action packed flick over a sappy romance any day Wendy
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Old 07-17-2012, 11:52 AM   #31
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Thumbs up Rofl

To get things back on track ...

um ... where's the mall again?
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Old 07-17-2012, 11:54 AM   #32
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Whenever we watch Mad Men, Barb (who was a teenager in the '60's) is surprised with what it was like then—I was in my 20's and remember it clearly. One message I get from that program is that men and women thought marriage and relationships were a battle for power then. That still goes on, but has changed significantly since.

We discuss everything and come to agreement on everything, but I still can't understand how such a smart woman can stand figure skating. The strange thing is she likes to watch football and I am completely bored by it (8 minutes of action in a "game" based on who gets the most concussions).

I'd love to see how it works out in 50 years (if I live that long, I'll probably be the oldest man in the world). I've watched the change in men and women my whole adult life and it has been a struggle for everyone.

My parents had a "traditional" marriage. She was a nursing supervisor when they met in the 1930's and had her own car and took care of herself. When they got married, she became a housewife and dependent economically on my father. It worked for them and they bickered all the time—it was sort of like living with Fibber McGee and Molly. That was the standard then—bicker, but never clearly work out the issues. Bickering is just unresolved anger institutionalized. When my father died I had to teach her how to write a check—I found it hard to believe such a smart women didn't know how. Barb came from a family with similar values. What we both got from our parents was a belief in equality even though our parents never seemed to achieve that in their actions, although intellectually they believed it. We've spent 26 years working on equality. It is hard to change certain things like taste—figure skating being one of them. Individual tastes are usually minor things and easy to make fun of in a strong relationship where both people believe in each other's equality.

The kitchen is an interesting place to see how it works out. I can cook, but don't get excited by it. I do cook some things, but Barb loves to cook and is so good at it, there are few restaurants that can match her. When we are both preparing something, we get in each other's way and have to watch out that it doesn't become a battle for boss of the kitchen. Since a 1,000 square foot kitchen is not possible, and neither of us want be like our parents' kitchen roles, we have to work it out. We have to acknowledge we can be absurd and make fun of ourselves as well as each other. Humor can be a great teacher and healer; it doesn't have to be vicious or unresolved anger.

The RV sewer issue can be a thing of bitterness or not. Traditionally, women don't want to take out the garbage or do certain things that are "gross". But at home, they clean the toilet. This is inconsistent, unless you believe that women are in charge of the home and men of the world outside (once both are retired, roles have to adjust and when they don't, bad things happen). It can also be a habit that can change. It can be harmless if each person recognizes it is a division of labor between equals. So I do the sewer while Barb attaches shore power, turns on the A/C or heat or fans, attaches the water more often than I do, she does the stabilizing jacks because the bending hurts my back, and usually we both hitch or unhitch, or I do it because she's busy with something I may do when she's busy. On the road either of may take out the garbage, but at home I usually do especially when it is so heavy she can't lift it without straining herself (I can't help it I'm stronger than her though we both exercise regularly).

I agree IQ tests are flawed and there are plenty of other factors that determine how someone does in life. It used to be said that with women as second class citizens, we lost half of our potential as a country. With a lot fewer men going to college and graduating, the balance is being tipped the other way.

Long ago it was called the "battle between the sexes". I'm glad to see that phrase isn't used anymore. There are differences and some are harmless and some are not. Maybe some women Ph.D. will invent a time machine and can come back and show me what it will be like in 50 years. Maybe men will like figure skating and women will hate it. I suspect both will still be making fun of each other's quirks and hopefully it will be done with love.

It is hard to live your goals. We are imperfect at it and it is hard work to have a good relationship. Humor has to be part of it.

Gene
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Old 07-17-2012, 12:21 PM   #33
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"Bickering is just unresolved anger institutionalized"
No Gene-- I think it is just a different form of communication. Just like we complain about the weather, we just want to say something and get a response from the other party.

Whatever works! and yes " Humor has to be part of it."
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Old 07-17-2012, 01:39 PM   #34
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Well our household is a little different. My wife is a family doc and I stay home with the four kids, and run the household and cook dinner. Well, and everything else. I have a lot of respect for stay at home moms. They work there butts off. However I don't like to clean bathrooms.
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Old 07-17-2012, 02:28 PM   #35
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Here's another oddity about men and women...
The Chair Experiment - YouTube
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Old 07-17-2012, 03:39 PM   #36
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However I don't like to clean bathrooms.
Does anyone? The alternative is worse, so it gets done. Early in our relationship I had a serious back injury and couldn't work. I also had a hard time sitting around, so I'd clean the rental we were in. I thought it was pretty easy, though boring. I'd do the food shopping when I could walk well and not when I was bent over and using a cane or in so much pain, I couldn't. Easy, but boring too. I had fed myself for years, so I could cook, but Barb prefers fixing dinner. When I started intensive exercise to strengthen my back, I was so exhausted, she had to take up the slack. We adjusted. We don't have kids, so that makes it much easier.

When I could work again, we adjusted again and ate out more. When we retired, another adjustment.

After I had strengthened my back, we bought a house that needed substantial fixing, so being my own boss, I worked on the house too (sweat equity) and worked, in varying amounts of time. I know how to remodel, Barb doesn't. She helps sometimes, but isn't all that interested. We sold the house for 2 1/2 times what we put into it, so the time investment paid off. We bought another house after we retired and it needed a lot of work (this remodeling thing is embedded in us). I did that and she cleaned, cooked dinner, and did most of the grocery shopping. We adjusted again.

We bought the Airstream (her idea) and I became the Airstream remodeler and mechanic (they need a lot of fixing even when new), especially after the house was finished. I do the maintenance on the SUV and truck too, but sometimes she helps and we detail them together.

Remodeling causes issues to come up. Traditionally women decorate the house and men decide our foreign policy toward Serbia. But I already knew how, read up on how to do more, and I visualize better how things will look when done. We've had to work on that. After many years of long and sometimes heated discussions on what will work best, she finally told someone I was a better decorator than her (for the most part). That felt really good. And I do know she sees more colors than I do (women have more cones in their retinas), so I rely on her to see those subtle differences. And we've learned we both live there and we'd better agree on what we want—which is often the same in the end result—or there will be trouble in the future.

I am also aware she is far better at organic chemistry, microbiology and some medical issues, so she is a valuable resource although we don't talk about the periodic table and valences very often.

Years ago there was talk about how women went crazy when all they did was clean house, sew, cook, and send the kids to school. That wasn't quite what it was like, but with all the tools available (vacuums, electric irons, prepared meals, etc.) there was said to be a lot of spare time and no intellectual stimulation that men got at the office (and deciding our foreign policy). In Mad Men I think Betty Draper was the example of that. My experience is that household work is repetitive and while I had pride in doing a boring job well, it was not enough.

As for this statement I made and Dave responded to: "'Bickering is just unresolved anger institutionalized'
No Gene-- I think it is just a different form of communication. Just like we complain about the weather, we just want to say something and get a response from the other party."

Communication can be reduced to stimulus and response; the response is the stimulus for another response, ad infinitum. When deep seated anger occurs because of childhood bad learning, or issues people never resolve, it becomes buried in our subconscious, or we feel it, but for various reasons cannot express it directly, or repress it because nothing changes. We make an instant cost/benefit analysis (maybe our subconscious does)—does having to watch figure skating every 4 years mean I should divorce her? What will I gain, what will I lose? I have to express myself—"I can't stand figure skating and the whole thing is fixed anyway."—then I change the channel to figure skating because I can read while it is on and be with Barb. I love really bad movies and Barb likes some, not others—she reads, I watch them. Same deal. But repressed feelings will come out in ways that may seem ok and often manifests in passive/aggressive communication. Bickering is also a result of unexpressed, unresolved anger—it can be pretty nasty, but becomes a habit, thus institutionalized. It relieves some tension, but never solves the problem. There are, of course, differing levels of bickering and some is harmful, some is harmless. And if it typifies a relationship, it can be a reason to ask yourself "why are we doing this? Isn't there a better way to talk? What am I angry about? Why do I feel bad?"

So, your example (the weather) is pretty benign and not so much what I meant. Unless, of course, if your wife wanted to move to the rain forest on Vancouver Is., and you hate rain and didn't want to live there and harbor resentments never resolved. Then you might say, "it is raining again and you made me live here, you idiot". I think you live in Nanaimo, not quite the rain forest, and I expect you are talking about something other than constant habitual bickering. We watch a lot of old movies, and the model for relationships in them is not good (independent women such as Katherine Hepburn tamed by strong men and then the woman supposedly settled into domestic life; she got a divorce 20 years later if the movie continued). I remember radio programs in the '40's where bickering couples were the norm. Early TV sitcoms were somewhat the same, but they also featured men as idiots always outwitted by their wives and children. I couldn't stand them after a while. I didn't watch TV for the next 25 years. But, I digress, as usual. I think we are talking about different things.

Contemporary movies are very different. There is bunch of movies, quite popular, where men are lazy, overweight, beer drinking, bums. Beautiful, slender, independent, wine drinking women are attracted to them and probably want to reform them and be reformed too. Not a good recipe for a long lasting relationship unless both accept each other as they are and achieve some honest balance. Not our model.

I was once married to a woman whose IQ was around 175, but she didn't use it well except she was really, really good at manipulating people, me included. We agreed on most things and worked together for a while, but the manipulation eventually got to me (after we split, I didn't see her for 2 years and when I met her for dinner, I couldn't stand her; some people grow, others don't). I have known plenty of people who are brilliant and some achieve and others fail. I have known women who were not too smart, but were great people to know.

The issues of relationships are a favorite topic of mine and I can go on forever. I will never quite understand recreational shopping, but I follow Barb around looking for a place to sit. I can watch tourists for entertainment and some shopkeepers are interesting to talk to. I don't know how anyone can look at so much jewelry. I'm a better negotiator, so I have a role too. After a while I say "I can't stand it anymore" and we do something else. Shopping for me is serious business, looking for the best deal on a good product, and then let's go. She doesn't like shopping for building materials and arguing with dealers over a truck, but she participates until she can't stand it anymore. And I don't buy anything unless she approves (for some reason, she never asks me about earrings; I'm glad she doesn't wear them in her nose).

Gene
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Old 07-17-2012, 03:51 PM   #37
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Gene == what is the title of your new book??

Dave
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Old 07-17-2012, 03:57 PM   #38
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Gene == what is the title of your new book??

Dave
"An Old Man Rambles Endlessly"

Barb says she only listens to every other word, but she hears them all when we disagree. I am also a great sleep aid for her.

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Old 07-17-2012, 04:14 PM   #39
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I loved the "Chair Experiment" when I was little. My sisters and I would use it to put my pesky little brother in his place proving he wasn't better than us because he couldn't do everything we could do. LOL

I'd take this article with a grain of salt. At the very least, it lacks scientific sourcing of the information. Problems is...it's not a competition and it tends to create division. Anyone can publish an article. It doesn't even have to be factual.

What's important is...we need each other in spite of our cultural and biological differences and share the most important fundamental quality. We're all human beings.

A primary issue about interpreting an IQ score is that errors commonly occur in the analysis of IQ tests. Intelligence tests measure a variety of mental skills, which are lumped together and called “intelligence.” The result is an IQ score. This number is supposed to be a measurement of a person's general ability.

The problem is that the broad IQ score does not reveal scores for each individual skill. In fact, an average or above average IQ score may result in the misleading assumption that all the underlying mental skills required for good learning or reading are equally high.

Some of the other prevailing problems that we know about IQ tests are as follows. Intelligence tests are unreliable predictors of performance, and are inaccurate (sometimes varying by as much as 15 points from test to test.)

At the very least, intelligence can be defined as the ability for complex thinking and reasoning. One thing the research shows for sure: much of the ability for complex reasoning depends on the situation. A person can be a genius at the racetrack but a dolt in the stock market, even though both pursuits require comparable mental activities. But the knowledge is organized in the mind differently in different domains, so what a person knows about the track can lie fallow on Wall Street.

IQ to the Test | Psychology Today
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Old 07-17-2012, 07:02 PM   #40
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Which man and which woman?

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Old 07-17-2012, 08:09 PM   #41
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After having thought more about this whole women and IQ thing, All I have to say is this: Thank God!...now she can take over the Airstream rehab. project, and I can bring out the iced tea and sandwiches daily. What a relief, I feel much better already, all of that mechanical thinking was giving me a migraine and making me cranky!:-)
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:22 PM   #42
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After having thought more about this whole women and IQ thing, All I have to say is this: Thank God!...now she can take over the Airstream rehab. project, and I can bring out the iced tea and sandwiches daily. What a relief, I feel much better already, all of that mechanical thinking was giving me a migraine and making me cranky!:-)
Don't forget to take your laudanum.

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