What I'm getting at is my 2010 FB Pana window was leaking street side. The dealer put a line of silicone from where the leak was. On the bottom of the glass where the seal is met with the glass. Not the frame of the window on the frame,..but the Glass seal itself. Dealer says they are waiting for an answer from Airstream. They were told by Airstream wekks ago " WE have NEVER replaced a pana window in the history of Airstream" Well this is a window manufactuer defect. I don't know if Airstream makes the windows,,but it was not made properly before install.
Now jump to today,....It's been raining here for over 12 hours...hasn't rained here since the first part of JUNE. I was sitting inside looking for leaks and guess what,,..My small window above my bed was leaking. Not a lot but leaking. My warranty runs out in February next year.
Who has actually taken their Airstream to the Mothership and had them repair it? What do they do? Pressure test it the whole thing? Or do they just put silicone/sealant on the leak. Would it be a waste of a trip...I run my own business, It would be a huge overtaking for me to go to Ohio from Texas and wait for it to be repaired. If I schedule an appt,..whats the usual turn around? Will my expenses be even considered?
Thanks any comments/help is needed.
I might come see Andy instead in California. He seems to be one of the most honest guys I have been in contact with.
Airstream and I have butted heads on several occasions over the phone.
Shane, they all leak. I was astounded to see a 05, an 08, and an 09 with rot issues just this weekend at a rally. I would think that after 75+ years this issue would be gone. Maybe someday the factory will shove the trailers into the rain tunnel to prove they don't leak instead of finding where they do.
2006 25' Safari FB SE
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Durango
, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,112
I had this problem on a Safari 25 FB with pano windows. Several trips to the dealer without success. I finally ran strips of 1/2" foam insultion along the edges of the swing out front & rear window and for the first time in 5 years, no more leaks!
Quite frankly, the AS is grossly over rated as far as perceived value based on the selling price.
Not an '09, but we have our share of leaks. The front pano was the last leaker—over the bed where the little table is. It was resealed at the service center, leaked again in Alaska last summer (2010) and I sealed the outside again. Hasn't leaked since and nothing has leaked since then.
This tells me the factory (as opposed to the service center at JC) does a bad job and it takes a couple of years to solve all the problems they create.
We have had leaks in both fans, front and rear panos, one vista view and the skylight. When I re-seal them they haven't leaked again. I'm certainly no expert at this, but I guess being thorough makes me a better sealer than employees at the factory. Several months ago, lewster was here doing a solar panel install and while he was on the roof, he checked everything and put more sealer where necessary, so I'm good for a while.
I realize sealant has to stretch because everything moves and eventually it tears somewhere. It also gets old and less flexible, especially in the sun. But the factory does not do the best job and slops stuff all over. Reports are the constant complaints about leaks caused the factory to put even more sealant on the roof, but not to necessarily do it carefully.
I am fairly new to Airstreams, and a complete rookie in all things Airstream. So the thought I am about to share may already be a common practice.
My other passion is sailboats. I have owned several sailboats over the years. There are many similarities between sailboats and high end RV's. It is very common to have a professional survey inspection performed on any sailboat selling for over $20,000. This applies to new and old sailboats. Sales contracts are almost always tied to the results of the survey inspection. I would think there would be a major market for professional RV surveyors who were competent to perform comprehensive survey inspections on all types of RV's. Based on my experience with sailboats, the problems with new high end RV's does not surprise me.
I know there are volunteers on this site who will participate in an inspection of an Airstream. What I am speaking of are trained and bonded professionals.
Do professional RV surveyors, as I have described, exist?
I guess I am Soooo lucky. I recently damaged the back end of my AS, so I decided to get rid of the carpet in the back end. I figger either I opened up some seams with the body damage or the soon to be completed repairs will allow water in. I am as dry as the Saraha!
Having watched how they seal the outside at the factory, its no wonder that so many leak. Makes you wonder why they don't deal with this perpetual problem where it starts.
Having watched how they seal the outside at the factory, its no wonder that so many leak. Makes you wonder why they don't deal with this perpetual problem where it starts.
Couldn't agree more, this is how our black tank vent looked straight from the "factory".
Should'a looked...
Bob
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Shane
We feel your pain. When we first purchased our 'stream (new), we not only had leaks, but a good flood after a storm...water was over our feet in the bedroom. Anyway, we had soo many leaks and the dealer was not kind to deal with. After much frustration, we decided to visit Jackson Center...and stayed three nights! We are now (knock on wood) leak free...big test was the hurricane in Maine! JC was great in trouble shooting all our leaks....but be aware of your floor! I noticed a dark spot on our flooring under the table and ended up having all the flooring replaced. Took pictures to send to AS to get approval for replacement. The floor integrity was not damamged...no soft spots..but lots of water spots especially under the pano window by dinette. Dealer in ALachua replaced flooring after making sure the floor was dry and sealed....looks great!
After living thru our leak nightmare...make appt with JC and spend the time to get it fixed right. While we were there, we picked up some extra "stuff" that we couldn't love without
One dealer actually replaced the rubber molding around the outside compartments...but it was the wrong molding and thus our flood in the bedroom.
You won't regret going to JC, and we learned alot from other Airstreamers that were there for other reasons.
Feel your pain Shane!
Andi
It strikes me that there are a couple of simple solutions to the problem of floor rot, ones that Airstream can't or won't resolve.
Firstly, if the floor has to be plywood, then why not use marine grade ply? Obviously it's more expensive and Airstream are champion cost cutters, but maybe they don't want to admit to themselves that their products do leak.
Secondly, why not ditch ply go with an alternative, plastic based floor, as they have with the European models? Again, cost cutting is the prime motivator I'd guess. I suppose Airstream strives to keep the unit cost down to what it thinks the market can bear whereas the Euro models tend to sell for about twice the price they do in North America so there's room for some more costly materials.
Maybe Airstream will see the light in the future?
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Steve; also known as Mr UK Toad
Getting back to Thepill's original question: I've had leaks fixed two times at JC. Most recently it was the same problem with the pano glass-to-frame seal.
Mine's an '07 and I had a recurring pano leak that JC fixed. It turned out to be where the center window solar guard attaches to the body of the trailer. Not even the pano frame. They made the repair and then put it under their spraying device to water test it for 45 minutes- no leak. This was a couple of years ago and was done under warrantee. That leak reappeared a couple of months ago- I could see where the sealant had cracked at the end of hinge. I was on the road so I just sealed it with some silicone and the leak stopped. I just had the hinge properly resealed.
At the end of the same trip (this summer) I had the lower curbside corner of my curbside pano separate from the frame. There was a 1/4" gap between the glass and the frame. Some butyl tape and duct tape sealed that until I could get it repaired. I went to JC last week for the repair. I could have sealed the daylights out of it or had the window replaced. I felt that just resealing it would be temporary and something I'd have to constantly watch, so I had the window replaced. I wasn't cheap, but after looking at the old window after it was removed, I'm glad I did it. The glass to frame bond was broken from the bottom corner all the way up the side to the top corner. I'm also glad I had the factory replace the window rather than a dealer who may not had had as much experience doing that job.
Frank- they do put every AS that comes off the line through the water tunnel. I think they do it before the inner skin goes on so they can see any leaks and repair them.
My trip this summer was 12,000 miles from NY to Alaska so the Safari certainly took a lot of shaking on some not so great roads which may have precipitated the pano failure (aggravating an already marginal bond).
There have been many complaints about leaks and rotted floors, but Airstream continues to do the same things year after year. They sell enough trailers to keep them happy.
Does someone ask the question: what is the cost of warranty work on common problems vs. making the trailer better? Maybe they have and it comes out in their favor so far as the numbers go. But do they consider the costs of bad reputation? That one is difficult to quantify and may be ignored. Certainly part of the problem may be ego—corporate suits have difficulty admitting they make mistakes.
Some say Airstream is a small division of a much larger company (Thor) and can't afford research. There's truth in that, but lots of problems can be solved easily. Marine grade plywood subfloors would help, for example, but those focused on cost cutting don't see the benefits of it. Better training (is there any?) of employees would help. This is a small operation and the workers have to do numerous tasks. Are the workers trained well? Are they paid enough so they care about what they do? Is there effective QC? Is there pride in the work? Is there effective supervision? Is there effective communication between the service center and the factory? I doubt there are positive answers to these questions.
I have been told by Airstream execs they do have a good QC program and a committee of factory and service center people to discuss recurring problems. I replied the results of these efforts were not good.
The problem starts at the top. Thor does not have a reputation of making high quality trailers and Airstream is their "premium" line. Most people still think it is premium, as I was told by someone recently, it is the "Cadillac" of RV's. Maybe it is the 1980's Cadillac, however. Thor does not set a good example and that attitude filters down to the production line. I am surprised the service center is as good as it is. There are some old timers at Airstream who do care and try to do a good job, so it isn't all bad.
Apparently they are happy with sales. Thor generates lots of cash with their policies. So much cash they lent $20,000,000 to Camping World a couple of years ago at 10%/year interest. It is working for them.
What we have working for us is publicity. Some at Airstream watch the Forum and are concerned.
Frank- they do put every AS that comes off the line through the water tunnel. I think they do it before the inner skin goes on so they can see any leaks and repair them.
The water test may not be adequate. Does the pressure equal that of a driving rain with high winds compounded by highway speeds? Inadequately applied sealant may be fine for months but let go after normal use. How do they test for thatvisual inspection or nothing?
When you have a leak fixed at JC, they put it under a portable shower unit. The water "tunnel" is at the factory, not the service center. The portable unit does not look powerful enough to test for all conditions either.
The tunnel test is 15 or 20 minutes. Given the number of trailers made each day (maybe around 5), they could do it longer, but not much longer. A bad seal may not fail until a heavy rain falls for an hour or a day. After final assembly, a leak may pass water between inner and outer skins and slowly drip through the insulation for hours or days and then show up somewhere, or worse, never be visible and rot the subfloor, cause mold between skins or soak other things including wiring. A dealer may not discover a leak either until the trailer is on the road for weeks or months.
I've had leaks that didn't show up until hours after a rainstorm. It is difficult for the company to detect them all under present practices. A better water test and better build practices and materials could solve a lot of this problem.
Sigh. I wish they would. We came back from camping this weekend with the notion that we'd start shopping (a fairly long-term process for us) for a newer trailer.
But I feel rather reluctant to drop $49k for the new 23D Serenity leftover we like. First off, there is the probability of the trailer needing to go to a pro to get the seam sealing checked every year. If it leaks, the nearest dealer is 2.5 hours away - and they're new to this. Hauling the trailer to Jackson Center (2 days away!) where I know warranty work would be done right would be another frustration. Four days of travel = a lot of money; might as well just pay someone local to fix it then...
If AS announced that 2013 trailers would have a composite floor, we'd buy new - no question. But now, what's the point? Might as well buy used and budget for upgrades and repairs. Or, maybe it starts to make sense to fully shell-off restore vintage with Nyloboard...
I understand your frustration Tom. Leaks only seem to arrive when traveling since traveling is what often makes them appear. We carry sealant with us and you can usually find something at a hardware store. But, it also requires a ladder if the leak is on the roof.
In Ely, Minnesota, several years ago we had no ladder or sealant. I found a tire shop where a guy agreed to go up on the roof and look for the problem. I bought some sealant and he fixed the problem. A year later I had to seal it again—it was around the Fantastic Fan. In a small town, you are more likely to find someone who will help.
Sealing things is not something that requires a lot of experience or intelligence. Of course, the smartest person can do a bad job and seal it badly. Sometimes a careful inspection will reveal a small void where water is getting in. Sometimes you can't find it. Either way I put a lot on anywhere it appears water is getting in. Eventually there is so much you have to remove it and start over, but I haven't gotten to that point yet.
Besides the tire shop, leaks have been fixed at JC and by me. Lewster checked out the roof earlier this year.
The good thing about a used trailer is that leaks have probably been fixed by then and you may be ok for a while. An inspection must be thorough—in cabinets, behind drawers, anywhere you can see the inner skin. In aluminum, there are usually water tracks left in dust or from minerals in the water (unless someone cleaned them). They may indicate a recent leak or that one was fixed and no one removed the tracks. A cloth interior should show water stains—a good reason not to buy anything with cloth interiors. Of course, water that has run down between skins and soaked the subfloor is harder to find. There may be places you can pull up vinyl and look, but that isn't enough for a thorough inspection. Checking plumbing for leaks is also a good idea—and looking for stains below plumbing. And plumbing is not always visible. Under our dinette seat, a cabinet recently had some water. I could find no tracks. We figured that a gallon jug of water that had been stored had a small hole in the bottom and no water has appeared since. Sometimes it is that easy.
There's no perfect solution and any trailer can leak. I think you have to decide what you want, what the risk associated with it is, and prepare for leaks as best you can. Knowing you as I do, I think that is just what you are doing and will come up with the solution that works for you.
Frank- they do put every AS that comes off the line through the water tunnel. I think they do it before the inner skin goes on so they can see any leaks and repair them.
The trailers go in to find the leaks, YES. However my point was that the tunnel should be used to prove they don't leak because during construction, every step was taken to assure it won't leak. How much more effort could it take? Currently they go in to find the leaks missed during construction.
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