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Old 11-13-2008, 10:03 PM   #15
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Vinnie,

I agree with everyone here about complicated is not good. Why are vehicle systems complicated? The cultures that built them build cars, not electronics, and it shows. Heck, I worked for two of the largest automation suppliers in the US and had to go out on my own to "do it right". Any of you whom work for corporate america, especially in engineering, clearly understand what "could be done" versus "what is done" due to a multitude of issues, which is why we go camping. So its nice to see the disgust about electronics and systems, as that clearly indicates a "market oppurtunity".

Relative to your tire concerns, I think you will see some solutions coming soon in that area, assuming one of my customers "enables the feature". The system I reference will do more then tell you pressure, but will only be useful on a certain type of trailer. Once they introduce the products I can say more, but can't say a lot right now. I will say there are the capablilities of indicating uneven tire loads and such.

Relative to communicating the information up to the cab, that is already a done deal once a specific product line is introduced. It is "inherent" in a new subsystem, and is exactly one of the reasons I having these dialogs.

Relative to say the "tire conditions" and other detected faults, what is your preferred interface, as this is a constant debate. For example, telling you "error 21", like a vehicle, is not intuitive. But indicating "Left Front Low 15psi" might be a bit better. Under what conditions do you want to know something is wrong? Do you want to be able to configure your own pressure thresholds?

I assume people don't want to be bothered by "beeps" and "screen changes" and such unless something is "really wrong". My guess is this kind of stuff would be configurable, where you could enable/disable the audible alarm as this stuff can get very irritating.

Relative to product quality, here are some experiences I am painfully aware of relative to the trailer market.

1) Some think "ground is ground" meaning if they connect a wire to the frame the current will magicly flow back to the negative terminal of the battery, even as the connection corrodes.
2) Somebelieve 16 guage wire can carry 40 amps
3) Some believe a butt splice is a good connection
4) Some believe that wires do not "drop voltage" as the current increases

I can go on, but poor wiring practices are the biggest problem I have seen in trailer systems to date. Relative to reliable networking, it is more difficult to achieve in a trailer then in a vehicle, where wiring harnesses and connectors are acutally designed to meet the needs of a specific vehicle. A trailer is more like an industrial plant, where all kinds of devices could be connected. My experience thus far is this is a trailer systems has to be much more forgiving. Additionaly, I personally believe inital devices need to be "overdesigned", or minimally need to have internal diagnostics that make it very difficult to "smoke a device". For example, some existing devices actually monitor the health of the power electronics, and if they begin to overheat they alert the operator and limit the power so they don't fail. In fact, they could acutally act as an electronic fuse, and not smoke the device.

Thus far I "get it". If it is not high quality, don't do it. If a user can't identify a fault easily, it is a bad design. If a user plugs a new device into the system, it should minimally provide limping functionality to verify it is working, without any special training or tools. If help is needed, plugging into a laptop and getting assitance over the internet is highly desired.

Regards,
Don
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Old 11-13-2008, 10:33 PM   #16
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Don,

If you ever come out to California i would love to meet you. I have been working with Can-bus networking systems since 98' and doing market research with customers for several years. I also "Get it" why most dont appreciate the upside of technology vs. the satisfaction of actually fixing something on our trailers better than what came from the factory. Here is an example of poor engineering. When the Volvo S80 was originally launched in 1999, the drivers instrument display would actually say "Stop safely and restart vehicle". Can you imagine what the driver would think when they saw this? Well, the ECM really just needed a reboot but the engineers thought that they would or should get it right away and inconvenience the customer to perform this alarming task. Now they just hide that function in the vehicles next restart. It sounds like your working with cutting edge technology. Why shouldnt the finest recreational vehicle have these features if they are truely ready for the market. These systems would have to withstand moisture, vibration, extreme temperatures, neglect, age and customer modifications! No easy task. The fact is that people do desire these features (maybe not all of us) but people that buy products, hopefully airstream products so this company can stay alive and competitive once things turn around.

Cheers,

Vinnie
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Old 11-13-2008, 10:44 PM   #17
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I like to abide by the KISS princple! Adios,John
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Old 11-13-2008, 11:25 PM   #18
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I'd like to see some new, designed from the ground up, LED interior lighting fixtures that would provide adequate illumination and reduced amperage usage...the 'long life' value of LED's is over rated, IMHO...what we need is lots of light, with less amp draw on the battery bank.

I also agree that systems need to be kept simple for trailers designed for 'camping'...but on the other hand, there is a portion of the RV public that wants 'all the options', and as such, the KISS policy goes out the window!

In these days of HD, LED TV's, I'd really like to see some kind of quality entertainment system that could be easily 'customized' by the user...perhaps a design incorporating a high tech looking 'central' unit with components that would fit into compartments and use a network to interconnect...the old plug and play concept...one could pick and choose which 'components' he wants in his system; Sat radio, DVD player, Sat TV receiver, Stereo Amp, AM/FM radio, iPod like device player, etc...

The TV monitor would interconnect with the 'central' unit to play the audio through a real quality speaker system, not just some ten dollar speakers mounted in the wall or ceiling! Most audio systems in RV's are really built 'cheap', unless it's in a mega-buck Moho!...Trailer Mfg's need help in this arena!
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Old 11-14-2008, 09:45 AM   #19
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Vinnie,

You called it right, this is very leading edge technology. Although this is not always the case, and varies with company and current boss (enough qualifiers), changing the status quo is difficult, and is one of the primary reasons "new and good" technologies take so long to adopt. To put this "software and networking" stuff in perspective you just need to ask a simple queston; "Mechanical engineers design products they may design a new bracket but they select from existing bolts, nuts, washers and so forth and REUSE existing technologies spending their time on the real problem. Electronic hardware engineers do the same, going to data books to select from available parts, then make the "unique schematic and circuit board" to interconnect these components to create a new product, and they are competitive. Most firmware (software inside products) engineers start a new product, and more like then not, "start over" reinventing their equivalent of bolts and such. Why you may ask? Because they can. Do the products they create have "software schematics" that replicate the implimentation exactly like a hardware engineer? Not very often. Do their "new software components" get applied in multiple situations like the previously referenced bolt or electronic component where constant reuse "uncovers and corrects" the defects or adds functionality for new applications of the object? Nope. Now creating all these software components is what software engineers call objects. However, in the world today although PC people, using windows and such may "reuse some microsoft objects", the interface to all these objects is "different". In other words although you may have a half inch bolt, you can't insert it in a sixteenth inch hole. What our software/firmware inventions do is provide the EXACT same software interface to all our objects, meaning every function in every object class has EXACTLY the same interface. Thus we have "plug and play" inside a product, and since all objects have the same interface, we can add or remove new objects and NOT negatively impact any existing object. Then we "interconect the objects to create product functionality using software schematics" which we call User Application Programs. Bottom line is ALL internals of ALL products form ALL manufacturers in ALL industries is EXACTLY the same. Since these same interfaces interconnect these products to the network everything on the network is the same, thus "plug and play". Thus one interface tool to service all products. Thus, if the product vendor allow it, you could "look inside and see" exactly how a product works and identify the problem.

I have been doing this for nearly six years now, and trust me, every new customer has their engineers whom tell me it can't be done, it won't work for their type of products, and so on. Bottom line is it has never failed to meet requirements. So can you have ease of maintenance? Sure. Can you have plug and play? Sure. Can you have a system where you can replace a the year old product with a new product as long has in minimally has the right type of inputs and outputs by merely downloading the "old User Application Program"? Sure. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. We will see if the trailer industry thinks this is a good idea, since they have not yet gone down the road of totally proprietary systems. So does the USA have the innovation and leading edge technical capabilities to recover our economy? Sure does, but it takes open minded companies that realize they "sell trailers" and not electronics to get this to happen. The high quality of Airstream obviously has a high quality minded customer and thus the types of feedback I am getting. Ya, our technology is pending in some trailer market suppliers products, but until the announce I have to keep my mouth shut. The issue is we may be forced to provide some of these other products to crush existing vendors in your market to get them to think this is a good idea, as we do not want to sell product, just technology. However, our non disclosure agreements do not allow us to reveal our customers, as they don't really want their competitors to use our stuff. Being an engineer, it was a marketing "slip up" and thus we minimally have to provide at least one of our own products so that we can "reveal our capabiltiy". Sorry for the long discussion, but that is what we like to call "leading edge".

Mexray,

I hear you about all the entertainment stuff, but that is not what we do and that is an industry of "perceived open" where each company creates a different version of their standard and then trays to get everyone to conforrm. Like VHS versus BETA some eventually wins (not necessarity the better solution) and you get a "market standard". We can't afford to play there and you will clearly have to rely on others. We do "licensed open control" where we eliminate the technology risks for our customers and they determine what features the product will do, how robust the electronics are within the device, how environmentally sound the product is and so on to differentiate themselves in their market. As that old commercial said; "We don't want to change the world, we just want to change your oil!"

Regards,
Don
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:12 AM   #20
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Vinnie,

Relative to "CAN" based networks: Like many engineers I have been involved in industrial control networking since the early 80's. When I did processing plants we actually may have installed one of the first fiber optic networks in a food processing plant as an "experiment" for a customer, and loved it. If there are any oldtimer egineers on this site, I even did the old intel BitBus stuff using Multibus 1 board level computers; one of two pre-PC bus standards. Since then I went to Rockwell, were I was involved in "every network known to man". some good, some bad. In effect they turned me into an extremely network literate engineer, which is where I was one of the primary architects of what the call the CIP architecture, which inculded a CAN based network called DeviceNet (tm), as well as ControlNet and EtherNetIP. That was where I took my first object based real time control arrows, where the architecture eventually became the industry standard. Although I was kind of ticked that what the archtiecture was "intended to become" got kind of messed up by those whom "didn't get it", many of my friends there say they were amazed how much of it "stuck" and that I should be proud of that. Then I did time at Eaton, doing the same old stuff, just more of it. I was chairman of the ODVA (Open DeviceNet Vendors Association) System SIG and member of the Technical Review Board for all my time at Eaton. The guys on that SIG were some of the "best of the best" in industry, but in effect, they are all "on to other things". That architecture was pretty good, but due to some of the "democratic" decisions, where everyone has a right to one vote even it they don't know anything, some of the specification details resulted in needless software overhead where none was needed. Combine that with "market protection" strategies and although, in my opinion, the best perceived open network for industrial controls, it just did not "scale well" to smaller systems.

Thus, to this date, all of my customers using CAN utilize our protocols, as they scale very well and correct the "democratic decisions" made on DeviceNet. Additonally, to get an architecture right, you must have a "dictatorship", where the dictator had better be true to the common interface theme. Bottom line is CAN is perhaps the BEST network for the buck. Then come the automotive guys, whom effectively created it as the next generation J1850 solution. To their credit, they kept the protocols the same when they used CAN in what is commonly referred to as J1939. However, keeping things consistent with the "old PID interface approach" caused them to mess up what CAN is good at, as well as some other things. For example, if you want CAN to "work" with long cable lengths and such you need to sample a bit "late" where J1939 does it at 50%, DeviceNet does it properly at 80%+. Since vehicle wiring is relatively short, not a problem. However, some of your trailers are not that short, so personally, I see a potential problem. By the way, it gets worse with lower cost cabling. DeviceNet requires "high buck" cable just to get their lengths, and the push the edge of the spec. Another item is CAN uses a "number" sent on the wire to determine who "gets to send a message" so that the network does not fail due to collisions. The lower the number, the higher the priority, and thus the lower number always wins. So if you looked at the details of the automotive numbers you would see they kind of "messed up" this priority capabiltiy. So then what they do is use various traditional techniques to get the system to work properly. On a vehicle, that is OK (I guess), but when you start mixing all kinds of control devices on a network, you want to be able to "tune" the system where high priority stuff ALWAYS goes first, and low priority stuff waits. I could go on and on, but let's just say, as best I can tell, the trailer maket appears to think they are building a vehicle and not a control system. Personally I am hoping I am early enough to try to impact the major trailer manufacturers direction but it may be hard, because they build trailers and not networks or control systems and they really aren't skilled in the art. In the technical area I don't loose many battles as I am honest, open minded and admit when a better approach exists, in addition to having years of experience in what works and why, and what doesn't work and why.

Lastly, everyone always thinks the "network is the problem" which is entirely NOT the case. In reality, the network is where external devices "see that the internals all devices are different" and thus they blame the network. The network interface then becomes the place where they try to enforce the "interface rules" and thus everyone standardizes on the network. In reality, they should standardize on the internal device architecture, where common protocols are then used at the interface to enable navigating, configuring and programming the device. So the trialer industry could be in for the "network wars" that occurred, and still is going on in the industrial market. Personally I am going to try to make this the "VHS/BETA" for "J1939/Other" war and we will see what happens. The good news is our stuff merely changes a User Application Program (software schematic) and we can coexist with most any protocol while embedding our own to "actually plug and play". We will then have to "find the loopholes" in the J1939 CAN Identifier Usage to make stuff work OK. SInce this industry will never test the bit sample point, we will run at 80% and not 50% and thus won't "fault like others". Hopefully this little bit of info will filter into the technical debates and this issue will be corrected in trailers. There are many other similar issues, but hey, there are reasons why some products are considered to be quality products, and others are not.

Sorry for the long CAN response, but buttom line is CAN is excellent, but there are a number of "wiring practices" that MUST be followed. What trailer specification do I reference to find what cable to use, length of network drops and so forth? Do all devices require a network status LED, and if so, what does it mean if it is RED or flashing RED or flashing GREEN or Off? What "connector" is used for all devices to connect to CAN? How does a tool do a nework Who to identify the connected nodes? This list goes on. :>)

If this stuff is not specified before the first network products are introduced, buckle up. These specificatons "may" be underway and I am just some outside idiot that is not aware of the real status, and thus hope someone with this knowledge will either post a message correcting me and point me to these specifications. Until then, I will use my own.

So when everyone wants the industry to follow the KISS principle, time will tell if we are trying to "herd horses" or "herd cats". For their own sake, I hope trailer manufacturers are not cats.


Regards,
Don
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:13 AM   #21
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(1) a (aftermarket) ABS system on the trailer.
As the brakes are already electric it is not to complicated to limit the curent on the magnets when the wheel locks up.

(2) Sway detecting, I have experianced that sway starts slowely and when it is noticed than its easy to controll.
When the first little sqay is not or to late noticed things get out of control real easy.
It's seems not to complicated to build a simple electronic device that detect this in a real early stage.
And maby even aply the brakes when heavy sway is detected.

(3) Speed sencitive sway controll.
Driving slow and making sharp turns we do not need/want sway controll.
On highway speed A verry stiff sway controll would be good.
Maby someting like the speed sencitve shock but than as sway controll is possible.

(4) Intergrated backup camera.
On campgrounds are playing kids.
Playing kids do not pay any atention to trafic.
When backing up in a camping spot alone you can not see the kid that has just has fallen of his bike.


Remco
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Old 11-14-2008, 12:14 PM   #22
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Remco.. those would be great features that could really help a newbie not feel so intimidated when pulling one of these expensive investments..
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Old 11-14-2008, 01:05 PM   #23
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Don

I know how passionate people get about wanting more technology and then more to leverage everything to the greatest potential it can be. The problem is, it never ends, and things like laptop access and diagnostics in a campground or when boon docking is suddenly necessary.

I've been there, promoted it for years, lived it for years, taught companies how to do this with their products and to convince their customers that it is the right way to go, and for many it has been successful.

But, guess what, my own personal choice is to stay away from that side of it. It is why my trailers have always been vintage. My tow vehicles have always been vintage. My toys are vintage and then my wife chooses a very high tech and very expensive car and it has been the most effort to maintain out of all our vehicles. Every time the dealer throws it on their computer several hundred dollars disappear and then the repair begins.

Certainly there are areas where technology will enhance our ability to love and enjoy our trailers but for the vast majority of people I know who go camping they are intent on getting away from "it all". That means much of the technology. They realize that there are some things that will function far better in some remote location if it is better designed and that could include some level of additional electronics - but if it breaks out there it better be easy to fix like todays trailers are because we are not out there to sit for hours going through diagnostic routines - we are there to fish, hunt, hike, swim, read or write a book, write emails to friends, family and fellow forums members, sit around the campfire and reminisce, and suck in all that mother nature can provide. If my current trailer happens to break I know exactly what it is likely to be, how to fix or work around it, and I know that in very short order I'll be back doing what I came out to do. A few simple tools, sometimes the assistance of fellow campers, and the great joy of group repair bonding that happens when you ponder a problem, look at it, hold it in your hands, turn it over, scratch your heads, get dirty, fix it, drink several congratulatory cold ones around the campfire, and relive the repair for hours while dinner is slowly cooking on the BBQ is all part of the camping experience. If someone were intent on taking that experience away from me I'd be forced to ask them to move to another camp ground where they can sit on their own, with their laptop, trying to figure out what that diagnostic code REALLY means, why it happened just as they needed it to work and what a work around might be and what codes to use, how the heck are they going to fix it manually since they don't have spare electronic components, does anyone else in the campground even know how to turn on a computer to help - well, you get the picture. All exaggerations of course, but trying to get my point across that the one way is all part of camping, the other is an extension of being at work and having something there break.

So manufacturers can go ahead and complicate the new trailers like crazy but they will be serving a different audience than the people in the camping world I know and love to be a part of.

Barry
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Old 11-14-2008, 04:06 PM   #24
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Rivet Another Consideration

Quote:
Originally Posted by C5Don View Post
The kind of system architecture trailers could utilize would simply require that you plug a USB cable into one of the devices in the system into your laptop. If you can connect it to the internet, then remote access is possible. Although I won't disclose too much here, I personally prefer the ability to download a series of diagnostic applications to the end user.
Hi Don,

I think you have some good ideas and I will be following this thread. One thing to consider about this is the number of Mac users on the forums, see http://www.airforums.com/forums/f451...mac-20558.html. Please take the cross platform issues into consideration. I use a Mac at home in my Excella and that's what I would be using.

I too have noticed the unreliability of the black tank gauge in particular. The most reliable one that I use is made by Mag Instruments of Ontario, California http://www.maglite.com/, but the display is certainly not pretty.
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Old 11-14-2008, 05:03 PM   #25
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Inside the Trailer.

(1) All the wiring is between the inner and outher panel, dificult to replace, repair or to modify.
It would be more user frendly is all the wiring runs trough the interior in a small housing on the floor on the side.
Prefered the 12 volt and the 110 volt sepatate.
This way repairs and personal mods can be made a lot easyer.

(2) Solar power trickle charger When not using the trailor for a long time the battery's go down.
Now I just hook up the trailor to the house powersuply 1 day a month to charge the battery's.
Just a small solar pannel will keep the battery's up all winter.

(3) Now we have to blow out the waterlines with compresed air for winter storage.
If all waterlines are laid on a slight angle and a drain valve is on the lowest spot it would be a case of just opening the drainvalve and all the taps.

(4) Smoke detectors should have a Bright light, If they go off you are in a trailor where you maby stay only 30 nights a year, in panic you can not find the light switch fast.
When the smoke alarm go of with sound and a bright light you can see where you are.

Just for comfort and for fun

(1) auto darkning windows flip the switch and the windows go black.

(2) Climate controll just set the temp and controll both the heater and AC.

(3) You come back to the trailor at night you open the door and where is the $#@^light swith, why not a small interior light when you open the door, even the cheapes rusian or chinees car has this.

Remco
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Old 11-14-2008, 05:16 PM   #26
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Let me add a perspective to this from a practicing Master Certified RV Tech who happens to have a Masters Degree in Engineering and works mostly on the larger, equipment and technology laden high end of the motor home spectrum.

The motor home industry is currently involved in serious Can-bus development with integrated componentry, multiplexing and twisted wire pairs. This has been going on for several years. The Silver Leaf monitoring system is the first fairly reliable system to be widely installed in the RV sector. It provides some good monitoring information, from tank levels to tire pressure/temperature readings to water temps in various heating systems, voltage draws and usage, and so forth.

This is a very expensive software driven system which is a nightmare to repair if it goes down......and they DO! I shudder to think of a system like this in a travel trailer.

One of the major problems facing the TT industry, from my perspective, is quality control, especially on assembly. I see it every day in the field, even on the $Million + super busses. One screw or staple thru a wire, cable, twisted multiplex pair, etc can wreak havoc on a system and take countless hours to trace and repair. I've been there. Conduits and hard wire pathways, educated and caring assemblers (sure!), OEMs concerned with the quality of their products and not just the bottom line would go a long way to address a lot of the problems that I see.....but then....I might be out of a job!!! The current thinking in the industry is to get the product out the door and let the dealers deal with them....but the dealers lack the highly trained and motivated staff to accomplish this.

From what I see, I don't think a travel trailer is the proper venue for high technology. Sure, it can be done, but the demographic of most travel trailer users would not buy such a complicated vehicle....IMHO! They want to use their limited time off to go camping in their trailers and enjoy themselves, and be able to fix a problem (like no hot water) without consulting a design engineer.

I see advances in tank monitoring (there ARE accurate system out there but the cost $$$$$), better energy management (load shedding is a fact on most large motor homes...check with Intellitec), better integration of quality solar componentry (too many solar applications, including OEM installations are substandard and not nearly as efficient as they can be), better battery systems, lighting systems, better heat and hot water systems (they are about to hit the market to replace the current old technology) ...etc.

KISS is the way to go in the trailer industry. Technology must be simple to repair and effectively bomb-proof if it is to find acceptance in this crowd.

Another consideration is the techs that must repair this stuff. Many new RV owners have had bad experiences with dealer techs who just are not properly trained or lack the abilities or desire to do a good job. I really can't see them plugging in a lap top to an OBD type data port to diagnose a problem, let alone be able to fix one.

It will take a special breed of new RV tech to be able to handle this type of work, and constant re-training will be necessary to accomplish this. I spend upwards of 40 hours a year trying to stay current with all of the new equipment and developments in this industry. I just don't see the industry as a whole embracing it when they still have persistent and recurring quality control problems with units rolling off the assembly lines. It will take a major catharsis to get it to happen.
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Old 11-14-2008, 06:15 PM   #27
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One of the major problems facing the TT industry, from my perspective, is quality control, especially on assembly. I see it every day in the field, even on the $Million + super busses. One screw or staple thru a wire, cable, twisted multiplex pair, etc can wreak havoc on a system and take countless hours to trace and repair. I've been there.
Here you have a exelent point.
If I look at my 1984 airstream a pricy product at that time and I see how it is put together.
Its bad realy bad when I compare it to our eurpean trailors like tabert.
I realy like my airstreams with all its problems.
But the people that are building american icons, american dreams that are known all over the word should keep a sharp look at the quality.
I'm ashamed to say that a lot of chinees or rusian made products are better made.
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:59 PM   #28
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Vaughan,

On the MAC, there is software that emulates windows on the Mac, thus you can run windows applications. With the type of diagnostic systems we need to go USB to CAN or USB into a device (cheaper) which then goes out CAN. The software, called a driver, to talk to USB will be the issue in a MAC, although I have access to Mac OS8, Mac OS9 and MAC OSX drivers, but don't know if the windows emulator works directly with the driver. When we get there we will have to take a look. We support the PC today, actually with two different USB/CAN devices, one our own and one from another vendor. So I guess it's possible. At maglite all I found was flashlights.

Remco:
Your solar charger is a good idea, but even 10watt panels, in consumer prices, are around $70. The question is, what would people be willing to pay for the charger with various connect/disconnect features needed in this terrible trailer power environment? This "charger" could actually be a device that serves multiple vehicle/break away/charging/power management functions, thus perhaps making it very cost effective since "other stuff" is eliminated with a single box.

Do you mean that trailers don't have a single thermostat? I guess that makes sense, as I have never been in one with AC.

Lew:

I agree, qaulity is job 1, and without it no need to do a product. Relative to KISS, once products are introduced I will let you be the judge. I am aware of some of the work going on for years, but if you know of "any" published specs please let me know whom to contact to get copies. I would be more then happy to review and provide comment, and recommendations for the "missing stuff". I've done this for years and can right to the specifics and hopefully help avoid common pitfalls.

Relative to the tank guaging, assume that problem will be solved. I have it and will clearly "reduce the price point", but this device is much more then a tank guage so that diagnostic issues will not be a problem. One question; Is the display local to the box where you connect the sensors or is it remote? Is the display "wall mount" like a thermostat or is it hidden where ever the sensor interface is mounted?

I actually created some charger sutff that was never used in the final product. I know there are, on some trailers, issues with inverter electical noise, battery switch over to the vehicle for break away usage down the road and some pretty garbage charging systems (or so I am told). On the battery systems, could you be more specific of the problems today as we could clearly solve them if I understood the problem?

Repair should generally not require a PC by plugging in a universal diagnostic tool, but most should be handled through the interface like that used for a tank gauge. We share operator interfaces between different devices on the network all the time so that should not be a problem. I know "traditional device architectures" don't allow this because these devices are usually updated by product specific software, or through special programming software for a specific vendors display device requiring yet another tool. Don't worry, we don't do that, so display sharing of real time data can be performed. Hopefully you will like what you see. After all many people can't change the time on their DVD player and won't even try to diagnose a problem.

Regards,
Don
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