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Old 02-11-2010, 11:31 AM   #161
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Survey: Buyers shy away from Toyota

Survey: Buyers shy away from Toyota - Yahoo! News
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:35 AM   #162
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Steve, I heard yesterday on NPR that there were more than 1,000 complaints about involuntary acceleration on Toyotas that have not been recalled. This makes me nervous. The software story keeps showing up, but I suspect that is also speculation. But it is logical that if Toyotas without the CTS pedal are accelerating, it isn't the CTS pedal. Are the other pedals the same design? Has anyone dissecting the software codes? There are too many questions none of us can answer.

The chances of anything happening are extremely small. I think the story I heard was 2,400 total complaints and total Toyotas in the past 10 years must be well over 10,000,000. But using those two numbers gives a 0.024% chance of happening. My math is probably wrong and the numbers I'm using are probably wrong too, but although the numbers look small, if your Toyota goes crazy, you are stuck. After you put it in neutral and turn off the ignition, then what? If it's not the pedal, it'll probably take quite a while to get enough info to find out it wasn't the pedal. What do you do on the Alaska Hwy?—a place I plan to be in June and July. I want to get this trip in this year because I think in 2011 gas prices will start go way up again.

Over the years it has been nice to not have to consider more than one brand. It makes it a lot easier to shop. Between us we've owned cars and trucks from many manufacturers (no Yugos) and we finally settled on Toyota. I thought that their ergonomics were bad until the late '90's. My hope is GM and Ford can catch up and pass Toyota on reliability soon. They are still lagging behind. While Toyota has been slipping slightly in recent years, and more so now, Ford and GM aren't filling the space that Toyota once occupied. It's true that some brands Ford and GM produce are quite high in the ratings, but the overall ratings of each company are still relatively low. Maybe we'll be driving Hyundai TV's some day—now that would be weird.

We're loyal to brands that serve us well and don't lie to us. If they don't work well, don't honor warranties and if they lie to us, we will tell everyone we can. For example, do not buy Price Pfister fixtures—once they made good stuff, but no longer, now they make poor quality equipment. Tell your friends.

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Old 02-11-2010, 11:46 AM   #163
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I went to the nearest Toyota dealer on Monday and was told they only had a few repair kits for Camrys and no others. I was also told I'd have to have a letter from Toyota to get a repair even though I can see "CTS" on the pedal assembly. No letter from Toyota yet.
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:22 PM   #164
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Ok, Our 08' Sequoia has 46,000 miles with no problem YET!!!!!!

But here's my problem with the suck pedal thing... If your pedal sticks where you left it why would your car then climb to higher speeds. it would just stay where it its, the same speed. Unless you stomped on it to try and release it... Either why, put it in neutral put on the brakes and turn it off when you stop... Or pretend your a formula one driver.

Gene, the dealer in Delta said it was a bad bearing... And it would start to stick a little before it stuck permanently. Thats reassuring NOT>>>>

HowieE I mentioned My wife was a doctor in town and it better not stick on her, and then I come to find out he goes to see her. HUUMM guess I'm first in line for a replacement.
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:49 PM   #165
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suck pedal thing...
Freudian slip?

A good point about: why would the speed keep increasing? Maybe it only happens when you floor it?

I don't get the bearing thing—never heard that before. I went to the same dealer and didn't see anyone I knew in the shop, so I talked to a new guy. The idea that it sticks a little before it sticks a lot has been publicized somewhere.

Did they tell you that you had to have a recall letter from Toyota before they'd do anything?

Howie, I don't use the lawyer thing unless I have to and then subtly because people resent it otherwise. They probably resent it anyway.

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Old 02-11-2010, 01:06 PM   #166
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Interviews, that I have seen, all report “accelerating” out of control. This is quite different than a “stuck” pedal and may in fact point to a software issue, not mechanical. The now famous 911 call by the off duty LEO certainly was a vivid and horrifying example of a car accelerating out of control, he was rapidly gaining speed.

The “fix” that Toyota has put out there, a small metal shim, used to pre load the spring and there fore increase the return force in the assembly, is as much of a joke as the infamous floor mat response.

Now we all like to think we are expert drivers, and would just “pop it into neutral” and coast to the side of the road. But even I don’t begin to imagine I have the experience and training that the LEO had in defensive driving techniques and his Family was killed!
I think we all imagine such an incident happening as we coast down a wide 4 lane highway with a broad shoulder to pull off, but the reality is a lot of these incidents are happening in crowded parking lots, etc.
How quickly do you really think you could react if, in the course of an average day, let’s say backing out of a parking space after Church on Sunday, all of a sudden your car rockets away while a young Family crosses behind you?
Or you let a Child on their bike across the road at a 4 way stop?
What if it happens then?
Serious stuff…
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:16 PM   #167
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The thing is, all of the new vehicles, no matter the manufacturer, are drive by wire, throttle controlled by the ECM. Then, in addition to that, the actual throttle is controlled by a servo.....basically a DC motor driven by the ECM, thru a series of gears.

Yea, sure, no chance for problems there!

Sorry folks, but I don't like the whole concept, and wish it was back to a simple cable and pedal/lever. At a minimum, the driver had actual control, and if it stuck, a little oil in the right place took care of the problem.
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:58 PM   #168
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I've earned a living writing software for 20 years. The last 12 of which have been working on "embedded" systems. My instincts are screaming this is a software problem. The fact that when you touch the brake while going more than 10mph doesn't cancel the acceleration value from the pedal (just as it cancels the cruise control) tells me new software is on the way soon. Maybe from everyone making vehicles.

I'm not a mechanical engineer, but a shim behind the pedal doesn't seem like it would fix a bearing problem.

Toyota Nears Repair for Accelerator - WSJ.com

This probably won't replace the current winner for the most expensive software bug (The Explosion of the Ariane 5), but it's going to be expensive.
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:15 PM   #169
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I've earned a living writing software for 20 years. The last 12 of which have been working on "embedded" systems. My instincts are screaming this is a software problem. The fact that when you touch the brake while going more than 10mph doesn't cancel the acceleration value from the pedal (just as it cancels the cruise control) tells me new software is on the way soon. Maybe from everyone making vehicles.

I'm not a mechanical engineer, but a shim behind the pedal doesn't seem like it would fix a bearing problem.

...
My background is very similar to yours, and it smells the same way to me.
There have been some fairly detailed technical discussions about this on various automotive forums, which I've found pretty interesting. Personally, I'm betting that starting in 2012 or 2013, every drive by wire system - throttle, transmission, power steering, brakes, regenerative braking - is going to need a milspec-like compliance document before it ships.

That said, not all things are equal even now. There's a CR story circulating just under the radar that includes this bit (source):
CR says its analysis found the ratio of reports for experiencing such a problem on 2008 model-year vehicle from Toyota Motor Corporation is about one in nearly 50,000. Ford's reported risk is about one in nearly 65,000, while the reported risk for a General Motors vehicle is just one in 500,000
An order of magnitude is significant.
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:30 PM   #170
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But here's my problem with the suck pedal thing... If your pedal sticks where you left it why would your car then climb to higher speeds. it would just stay where it its, the same speed. Unless you stomped on it to try and release it... Either why, put it in neutral put on the brakes and turn it off when you stop... Or pretend your a formula one driver.
Please try and look beyond the Legal Speak. This problem has absolutely nothing to do with the pedal. It and several of the other problems reported by Ford, in their Chinese cars, the one the overrides the automatic steering, and the lose of brakes are all software problems. That bar and bronze bearing could not stick if you soaked it in salt brine for a week.

An interesting point was made on NPR news the other night. The delay in the Government pushing Toyota into reaction may have had something to do with the fact the the Congresswoman from the district in Ca. that houses Toyota's US Headquarters is a major stock holder in Toyota. But I am sure she was working in the best interest of her constituents, or was that her pocketbook.
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:52 PM   #171
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Sorry folks, but I don't like the whole concept, and wish it was back to a simple cable and pedal/lever. At a minimum, the driver had actual control, and if it stuck, a little oil in the right place took care of the problem.
You can blame the Tree Huggers for this one. The conversion to fly by wire was to manage the fuel system to ring out the last bit of MPG to meat Government standards.

This foolishness has gone so far that GM would only submit their cars, once equipped with Day Time Running Lights, for MPG testing if the Government allowed the testing to be done with out the lights on. That is working in the 3rd. or 4th decimal place. But that is where we are.
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Old 02-11-2010, 04:51 PM   #172
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...Ford's reported risk is about one in nearly 65,000...
Interestingly, Ford brags about having Microsoft software in their cars.

Perhaps all you need to do when they start acting strange is pull over to the side of the road, shut them off, have everyone get out and close the doors, then have everyone open the doors, get back in, and restart the car. That's called the Ctrl-Alt-Del maneuver. Guess I'll wait for the new iTow.
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Old 02-11-2010, 10:34 PM   #173
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A few points.

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Did they tell you that you had to have a recall letter from Toyota before they'd do anything?
Gene
Hi, at Ford, we would do the recall without the recall letter if your vehicle was listed on our computer for this recall and if we had the parts.

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Sorry folks, but I don't like the whole concept, and wish it was back to a simple cable and pedal/lever. At a minimum, the driver had actual control, and if it stuck, a little oil in the right place took care of the problem.
Hi, Henry Ford never wanted brakes on his cars to be controlled by a liquid; [hydraulic brake fluid] He insisted on keeping the mechanical metal rods system. Have you ever driven a Model A or similar car with mechanical brakes? I have, and it will scare the crap out of you. This is the future and it needs to be perfected.

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I'm not a mechanical engineer, but a shim behind the pedal doesn't seem like it would fix a bearing problem.
Hi, In any repair business this would be considered a band-aid until a real fix is figuered out.

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You can blame the Tree Huggers for this one. The conversion to fly by wire was to manage the fuel system to ring out the last bit of MPG to meat Government standards.
Hi, fly by wire saves fuel be gradually opening the throttle plates versus slamming them open instantly. First ones out by Ford, customers complained about lack of horse power. They had the same horse power as previous models, but won't burn rubber on take-off.

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Interestingly, Ford brags about having Microsoft software in their cars.

Perhaps all you need to do when they start acting strange is pull over to the side of the road, shut them off, have everyone get out and close the doors, then have everyone open the doors, get back in, and restart the car. That's called the Ctrl-Alt-Del maneuver. Guess I'll wait for the new iTow.
Hi, in the 90's some Fords would act-up and the only fix was to disconnect the battery for a few minutes, reconnect, and drive car normally for a few miles. [re-boot computer?]
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Old 02-12-2010, 08:04 AM   #174
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Hi, in the 90's some Fords would act-up and the only fix was to disconnect the battery for a few minutes, reconnect, and drive car normally for a few miles. [re-boot computer?]
Maybe Toyota will learn form this and put a battery cable disconnect switch in the driver's area because getting out and disconnecting during acceleration is not an option.

I am sure if anyone called Toyota HQ they would say just drive in and get it fixed. Now on the other hand the "Stealer" will fix Friends and Relatives first and with a shortage of pedals that is want is most likely happening.
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Old 02-12-2010, 08:09 AM   #175
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Now on the other hand the "Stealer" will fix Friends and Relatives first and with a shortage of pedals that is want is most likely happening.
I guess they'll be the first to find out the "pedal" fix didn't solve the software acceleration problem.
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Old 02-12-2010, 09:12 AM   #176
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Freudian slip?

A good point about: why would the speed keep increasing? Maybe it only happens when you floor it?

I don't get the bearing thing—never heard that before. I went to the same dealer and didn't see anyone I knew in the shop, so I talked to a new guy. The idea that it sticks a little before it sticks a lot has been publicized somewhere.

Did they tell you that you had to have a recall letter from Toyota before they'd do anything?

Howie, I don't use the lawyer thing unless I have to and then subtly because people resent it otherwise. They probably resent it anyway.

Gene
Yep they sure did. I thought about making one up myself and see if it flies. Thats what they seem to be doing to us. ( Making it up....)
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Old 02-12-2010, 10:42 AM   #177
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Collusion?

Regulators Hired by Toyota Helped Halt Investigations - Yahoo! News
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:54 PM   #178
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If everything in that article is true, it would seem to me Toyota is in deep trouble. Well, maybe...depends on how many political favors they have to pull in.

Isn't that how they do it in Chicago?
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Old 02-12-2010, 01:16 PM   #179
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Man, Thank God I have an old 75 dodge pickup. I can open the hood, climb in, and work on it. Only a few things can even go wrong with it. They all have. and I was able to tell what they were and fix them..

Man, and it was only $2000 new. I paid $2300 8 years ago. Has a 440 in it and will tow just about anything. Just can't fit the whole family in it.... and it only has 86,000 original miles

Plus it's built like a tank so I can hit deer, cows, elk, turkey etc. all day long and not worry about it. We have that wondering the roads around here.
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Old 02-12-2010, 01:19 PM   #180
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so I can hit deer, cows, elk, turkey etc. all day long and not worry about it.
But I have to admit, I hate that kinda day...
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