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Old 01-27-2010, 10:27 AM   #43
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Bad parts, this is very bad for Toyoda..........
Toyota supplier CTS Corp. at center of sales halt - Burns on Business
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:34 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
Don't talk about a hoax you know nothing about...
good 4 goose, good for gander?

since when was "knowing" a requirement to post here...

sorry bob, while u may have had a car lurch in the shop, that doesn't equal KNOWING why these things happen.

or when a hoax is a hoax...

the discovery that one of the cars featured by 60 min' and the 'tech expert' was ALTERED for the sake of drama...

taints their story line very badly, along with the other inconsistencies later revealed...

here's a usa today story on the old audi saga...
_______________

Lurching Into Reverse

by Greg Farrell

Audi sales were crushed by a 1986 60 Minutes show that was off track. A
decade later, the car maker is finally recovering, but 60 still won’t admit
it was wrong.

Buried deep in the 60 minutes archives, squirreled away alongside the
program’s notable triumphs, is an episode the CBS weekly newsmagazine isn’t
eager for you to see.

This isn’t some obscure early segment with poor production values that would
make the venerable show look laughable today. It’s one of 60 Minutes’s
greatest hits, a piece originally broadcast on November 23, 1986, titled "Out
of Control." As presented by veteran correspondent Ed Bradley, the 17-minute
segment showed compelling visual evidence that the Audi 5000, a German luxury
sedan, had a dangerous propensity to lurch forward on its own, even when the
driver’s foot was on the brake. This defect, dubbed "sudden acceleration," was
allegedly responsible for hundreds of accidents. The piece also included
dramatic interviews with six people who claimed that accidents they suffered
in their Audis were caused by the car. Two of the wrecks caused fatalities.

But it turns out that all of the people featured who sued Audi eventually lost
their cases. And the woman used in the "teaser" opening—the clips that run
just before the ticking clock at the start of each 60 Minutes show—was later
fined for filing a frivolous suit.

"It’s not because we’re embarrassed by the story," says 60 Minutes spokesman
Kevin Tedesco, explaining his refusal to provide a tape of the show. "It’s the
lawyers. They don’t want to open up a can of worms."

The Audi episode was repeated on September 13, 1987. The rebroadcast included
additional information on the skein of mishaps—1,200 reported accidents,
including five deaths and 400 injuries—claimed to have been caused by the
defective Audis. As Bradley stated, "the sheer number of incidents involving
the Audi 5000 alone would make it the most frequently occurring serious defect
in automotive history."

The show had an enormous impact in the marketplace. Sales of all Audi models
in the U.S., which had peaked at 74,061 in 1985, plunged sharply after the 60
Minutes broadcasts (see chart, page 55). "It was a nightmare for the
company," says Thomas McDonald, former head of public relations at Audi’s
parent, Volkswagen of America, Inc. "We lost billions of dollars in sales and
revenues." Audi’s average annual sales of 14,000 cars from 1991 to 1995 were
just 19 percent of its pre–60 Minutes peak.

But in early 1989, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)
issued the findings of an exhaustive two-year study of sudden acceleration. It
concluded there was no mechanical problem
that directly caused the
acceleration of the Audi 5000 or any other cars (including Mercedes-Benz,
Nissan, and Toyota models) accused by drivers of having minds of their own.

NHTSA investigators determined that most of the accidents must have been the
result of driver error
—especially a driver mistaking the gas pedal for the
brake.

Government safety agencies in Canada and Japan reached similar
conclusions
in their own studies.

On March 12, 1989, Bradley presented a short update, reporting on NHTSA’s
findings. He said the study "supported the position of Audi and the other
manufacturers," and that investigators "could find no mechanical or electrical
failures which would cause sudden unintended acceleration." While the study
concluded drivers were mistakenly hitting the accelerator, Bradley noted that
it also pointed to possible design problems—"the shape, location, and feel of
gas and brake pedals"—as a contributing factor.

"Audi of America," concluded Bradley, "which saw its sales drop by more than
two-thirds as a result of adverse publicity, said it was delighted with the
new report, which it said finally vindicates the Audi."

That was it for the update. What Bradley did not say was that the original 60
Minutes broadcast might have been erroneous or misleading
.

He termed the NHTSA findings an "opinion."

60 Minutes’s own role in creating "adverse publicity" was left unacknowledged.
"They never apologized," says a former Volkswagen
executive. "They never said, ‘We were wrong.’"
(Bradley declined to answer questions about his piece.)

What’s more, Bradley also failed to mention how 60 Minutes had been able to
offer footage of an Audi 5000 lurching forward from a parked position.

William Rosenbluth, an automotive consultant retained by plaintiffs in a suit against
Audi, says he drilled a hole in an Audi transmission and piped fluid into it.
The resulting filmed sequence, in which the accelerator pedal moved down on
its own, provided 60 Minutes with the damning visual evidence
the program
needed to brand the Audi 5000 a dangerous vehicle.


__________

briefer, more balanced look at the over all issue (including toy' content)

and including the string of parts/changes audi performed on a LOT of vehicles in that era...

Sudden Unintended Acceleration |

and of course the wiki...

television controversy/hoax?

from my experience the pedals on these cars WERE close together and that's an issue.

lots of older euro cars had tiny close packed pedals but MOST of them also had a clutch...

in fact the close spacing was a bonus IF trying to heel/toe downshift/accelerate, for faster lap times!
_______

part of the heart tugging drama of that audi story was the mother who killed her own child with 1 of those cars,

and THAT theme is repeated in the current toy' story, it's gonna get ugly.

however there have been a LOT of changes in the populace view of investigative journalism,

and changes in product liability law and awarding damages at trial...

it' gonna be VERY interesting to see how toy' handles this and how OUR TWO GOVERNMENTs handle this...

oh yeah, and the parts maker/point of origin for the defective OR worn OR improperly spec'd parts or programming...

cheers
2air'
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Old 01-27-2010, 12:25 PM   #45
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Bob, about the Audi hoax, truly sorry I offended you. I was referring to CBS's 60 Minutes rigging an Audi to suddenly accelerate, without a driver on board. That was a hoax, cost the company zillions, and the lawyers to gather around even those that jumped on the bus AFTER the wreck to claim injury.

No mechanical fault as ever found, but the company thought it may have been close placement of the accelerator and brake pedals. The lawyers then shifted their suits to that as an admission of fault. Lots of versions, but that's how I understood it when I bought my first Audi.

I am a lot more afraid of the guy driving on one side of me texting, the other side on the phone and eating lunch, the one in front reading a book, and the gal behind putting on makeup, than I am of my car failing.
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Old 01-27-2010, 12:41 PM   #46
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60 minuets is Entertainment and has almost nothing to do with NEWS.

If you look at their segments with any level of a critical eye you will see flaws, falsehoods, and general misrepresentations to add to the sensationalism of the segment.

I have always questioned why if they did in fact believe in their stories. Why do they never press the issue or in any way follow up on their claims greatly effect our well being?
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Old 01-27-2010, 01:02 PM   #47
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Point taken 2

All I can say is that it was a problem that we in our shop had direct experience with. One case exhibited while the car was in our shop and over a dozen brought in for diagnosis of the problem pre 60min...'cept or don't.

What I thought might be suspect....excessively high idle while on the cold start circuit.(Bosch CI FI) complicated by a throttle linkage that might be exacerbating an already high idle condition, away we go. But what did we know?, we were just skinned knuckle Dr's.

It's too long ago to 'gue about.
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Old 01-27-2010, 01:14 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS View Post
Hi, the person who was driving the Toyota that crashed and killed everyone [including the passenger on the phone] was a CHP officer. [California Highway Patrol] And in my opinion had poor driving skills, especially for one in his job title. 911 "We're going over one hundred miles per hour and can't stop this car, help us"

I'm sorry for them, but..................PUT THE DAMN TRANS IN NEUTRAL AND IF THE ENGINE BLOWS UP, WHO CARES. TURN THE IGNITION KEY OFF, HOLD THE STEERING WHEEL WITH BOTH HANDS, AND USE BOTH FEET ON THE BRAKE PEDAL AND PRESS REAL HARD AND DO NOT PUMP THE BRAKES. I'm yelling for a purpose, use some common sense.
Item one.
Some facts.
1) the car was a loaner from the dealership
2) there was no ignition key - it was a pushbutton
3) The pushbutton required that you hold it for three seconds continuously in order for the ignition to be turned off (BMW supposedly will allow three "jabs" in quick succession to shut off the engine)
4) the car in question supposedly had a shift gate that made it unintuitive to find neutral - at least that's what is reported in the LA Times.

Item two.
The Detroit News (among other sources) is reporting that the Toyota sales halt was ordered by the Dept of Transportation.
A Toyota spokesman, Mike Michels, said Tuesday that the stop sale decision was obligatory although the recall was voluntary.

Strickland [edit: from DOT] wouldn't directly address why Toyota didn't stop selling the vehicles five days earlier when it announced the recall.

"At this point, you need to talk to Toyota about those decisions," he said. "We'll be continuing to work with Toyota and having conversations."
Don't know that there's anything especially significant in that, but it was interesting to hear, at least to me.
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Old 01-27-2010, 01:16 PM   #49
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Bob,

I remember the old Volvo CI cars that had the "High tech" airslide (hey thats me?!) technology. Basically bi metallic metals warming up quick and closing a big vacuum leak up... LOL

Funny now with all the technology we are experiencing these days. But still, those slides could produce some high idle and since the fuel pressure regulator was in enrichment mode (cold) you got a bit more fuel too! Still, nothing the brake pedal couldn't overcome. The biggest problem was the placement of the pedals and pre - shift lock control. You fire up the car.. grab the shifter which moved freely go for the brake pedal next (sequencing problem there) and hit the gas by accident and Wala.. your movin..

Not to say this was the only cause. I investigated some things at Volvo that I couldnt explain but I know an aweful lot of Audi's found there way over to Saudi Arabia during these days and never experienced cold start or high idles again.. Hmm.. wonder why?
120* days maybe..

Sales were dead here for sure..

Interesting thread. I wonder what kind of back room meetings took place at Toyota over the last few months..

Cheers. Vinnie
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Old 01-27-2010, 03:36 PM   #50
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If this were a domestic manufacturer most would be giving them Holy Heck! But now we all see that even the Asian Manufacturers have problems. For years they have had problems but would hide it with a free service, then would fix the problem while the vehicle was there. Being American and buying American I'm glad they are having BIG TROUBLES. Hope Ford picks up market share a a result!!!!!!!
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:40 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by papademojo View Post
If this were a domestic manufacturer most would be giving them Holy Heck! But now we all see that even the Asian Manufacturers have problems. For years they have had problems but would hide it with a free service, then would fix the problem while the vehicle was there. Being American and buying American I'm glad they are having BIG TROUBLES. Hope Ford picks up market share a a result!!!!!!!
Toyota supplier CTS Corp. at center of sales halt - Burns on Business

CTS IS a domestic manufacturer.....

And how DARE THEY (Toyota) fix the problem with FREE service!!!

My Tundra was built in Indiana.


Now you can attack me for being a Toyota fanboy.
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:55 PM   #52
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the recall is blown out of proportions as so many things these days in the media...

toyota is doing the right thing by recalling/suspending...

however from what i read the problem is not dangerous, just step on the brakes...

anyway, now is the time to buy a toyota and maybe some stock too...
They where forced to recall and suspend in U.S.A.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:00 PM   #53
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Yeah, my Tundra was built in Texas. Last time I checked that was still one of the 57 states.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:33 PM   #54
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Being American and buying American I'm glad they are having BIG TROUBLES. Hope Ford picks up market share a a result!!!!!!!
According to the NHTSA about 80% of the Tundra is built in U.S/Canada. My Titan was built in Canton Mississippi but takes a big hit at only 65% content from U.S/Canada mostly because the transmission comes from outside. Looks like the F-Series comes in at 55%.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/DOT.../AALA2010p.pdf
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:35 PM   #55
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FWIW....all recalls are repaired free, once the correction is found.
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:38 PM   #56
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...
CTS IS a domestic manufacturer.....
Typically with H & T, the OEM designs and specifies the part thoroughly. The supplier assembles it to spec.

While it is possible CTS did not assemble to spec, I'm not sure I'd rush to make that claim. The Denso part apparently is not interchangeable with the CTS part, indicating that the specs for the two are different, the CTS supplied part I believe already having been redesigned once.

Regardless, we'll have to wait to see how all of it shakes out. I'm no fan of Toyota (owned one, consider that a mistake), but personal tastes aside, I don't think anybody in the industry ever wanted to see this sort of thing. It's like being a kid and having a snowball fight with the neighbors when one of them picks up a snowball that explodes.
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