Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-25-2010, 02:45 PM   #225
Rivet Master
 
Diesel1's Avatar
 
1967 24' Tradewind
Wickenburg , Arizona
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by HowieE View Post
Very interesting point. Your saying a trans with a front pump would not be turning and thus not hold the clutches engaged during a shut down and thus no connection to the engine at 30+ mph.

What about a momentary shut down just to reset the computer and brake the fuel setting.
Correct, the engine must be turning in order to drive the pump. I don't think you could key off/on fast enough to mantain sufficant line pressure to keep the clutches engaged. Adios, John
__________________

__________________
Diesel1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2010, 07:33 PM   #226
Liquid Cooled
 
RedSHED's Avatar
 
2014 16' Sport
Columbus , Indiana
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 485
Images: 2
Not all of the cars in question have an ignition key.
They have a fob that can stay in your pocket and you push a button to start it. My 1951 Willy's CJ-3a was wired sorta like that, come to thing about it.

The thing was, BMW and VW reportedly have similar systems. To kill their engines while the vehicle was moving, you either pressed and held the pushbutton for three seconds, or jabbed it three times in succession.

Toyota's, you apparently had to hold in for a solid three seconds. Three seconds while the thing is open loop WOT (reportedly) is going to seem like a week and a half.

The difference between the BMW system and the Toyota system is (at least it seems to be, from here) some guy spending a couple of days thinking really really hard about the whole system, different ways it could break, and how people would normally react.
__________________

__________________
RedSHED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2010, 07:48 PM   #227
Rivet Master
 
ROBERTSUNRUS's Avatar

 
2005 25' Safari
Salem , Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,266
Images: 18
Blog Entries: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel1 View Post
Correct, the engine must be turning in order to drive the pump. I don't think you could key off/on fast enough to mantain sufficant line pressure to keep the clutches engaged. Adios, John
Hi, John is correct; Rear pumps dissappeared in the 60's. You can push your car over 100 MPH and it won't start. My old cars would start as low as 10 MPH. You only get engine brakeing while the engine is still turning.[turning the torque converter, connected to the front pump]

Did I hear this correct? Toyota replaced pedal assemblies on their cars in Japan and they are mouse-ing them here. [spring shim]

Also computer related; One lady's testamony was that she put her car's shifter into neutral and even reverse, and her car kept on going. Many years ago cars with automatic transmissions had a Neutral Switch. This switch controlled your back-up lights and allowed you to start your engine in Park or Neutral. Next came Locking Steering Columns. These vehicles had a mechanical block allowing your car to start only in Park or Neutral. The Neutral switch controlled your back-up lights and a vacuum parking brake release. Up until this time your transmission had a mechanical connection to the transmission's valve body. Now in the electronic age, we call the neutral switch a "MLPS" Manual Lever Position Sensor and the mechanical connection to the mechanical valve body has been replaced by electronic solenoids. Therefore Your transmission could be considered a FLY BY WIRE system too. Your computer dictates what mode your transmission is in.
__________________
Bob

2005 Safari 25-B
"Le Petit Chateau Argent"
[ Small Silver Castle ]
2000 Navigator / 2014 F-150 Eco-Boost / Equal-i-zer / P-3
YAMAHA 2400 / AIR #12144
ROBERTSUNRUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2010, 08:42 PM   #228
Rivet Master
 
HowieE's Avatar
 
1991 34' Excella
Princeton , New Jersey
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,809
Images: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS View Post
Did I hear this correct? Toyota replaced pedal assemblies on their cars in Japan and they are mouse-ing them here. [spring shim]
.
Reason being "Suicide" is the remedy of choice for failure in Japan so there
is a strong incentive not to fail in the home land.

I must be showing my age thinking you could still push start an automatic. Guess I forgot what I did when I rebuilt my 4L80. "Never Mind"
__________________
WBCCI 12156 AIR 3144 WACHUNG TAC NJ6
2004 Excursion 4x4
1991 34 ft. Excella +220,000 miles, new laminated flooring, new upholstery, new 3200 lbs axles

HowieE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2010, 09:02 PM   #229
Rivet Master
 
Gene's Avatar
 
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction , Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
It's true that you'll still have brakes and steering when the engine is off, but it won't be like the cars were years ago—it'll be a lot harder to stop or steer. It not just like the days before power brakes and steering. Maybe it'll feel like mechanical brakes. You'll also lose ABS I think. Standing on the brake will take a lot of pressure. The difference in response will surprise people who may over-correct on steering. The sensation of a racing engine also unnerves people.

If you turn off the ignition and leave the vehicle in gear, will that turn the engine enough to maintain power assist for the brakes and steering? Aren't all the pumps run by the crankshaft and belts and chains? Power brakes used to run off engine vacuum, I think—what happens there? Does it take a while to exhaust the vacuum after the engine is off?

On our 2006 4Runner and 2007 Tundra, I have noticed the cruise control doesn't seem to work quite as well as on previous Toyotas. It's harder to set the speed at a specific number. Sometimes it seems to increase the speed 3 or 4 miles an hour above the speed I try to set it at, then slows down to near the set speed. Other times it's fine. It can be difficult to get the exact speed I want, but not always. Previous models weren't as touchy and were easier to set. Once set it works fine. Perhaps, as was suggested to me, it's time to pull the fuse on the cruise control.

I am trying to balance the risks. Considering all the vehicles and all the gazillions of miles driven, this is a very rare problem. But, it's really bad when it happens, maybe. Have there been many more such problems never reported because it happened once, then never happened again? We don't have start/stop buttons, so that's good.

The 4Runner is not on the recall list for anything, so that is reassuring.

Gene
__________________
Gene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2010, 10:06 PM   #230
Rivet Master
 
ROBERTSUNRUS's Avatar

 
2005 25' Safari
Salem , Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,266
Images: 18
Blog Entries: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
If you turn off the ignition and leave the vehicle in gear, will that turn the engine enough to maintain power assist for the brakes and steering? Aren't all the pumps run by the crankshaft and belts and chains? Power brakes used to run off engine vacuum, I think—what happens there? Does it take a while to exhaust the vacuum after the engine is off?

On our 2006 4Runner and 2007 Tundra, I have noticed the cruise control doesn't seem to work quite as well as on previous Toyotas. It's harder to set the speed at a specific number. Sometimes it seems to increase the speed 3 or 4 miles an hour above the speed I try to set it at, then slows down to near the set speed. Other times it's fine. It can be difficult to get the exact speed I want, but not always. Previous models weren't as touchy and were easier to set. Once set it works fine. Perhaps, as was suggested to me, it's time to pull the fuse on the cruise control.
Gene
Hi, a vacuum brake booster should work about three times after you turn off your engine. You can test this by [at a stop, in park] shut off your engine, wait a few seconds, then press your brake pedal down steadily, then let off of the pedal and repeat until it feels different; At this point the vacuum has been depleted in the booster. Hydro-boost works off of power steering pump pressure, so when the engine stops turning, steering and brakes stop too. Yes you can still try to turn the steering wheel with a lot of effort, but the brakes will be almost impossible to stop with. I know because I had a car with hydro-boost and when the engine shut off at about 15 MPH it took about 3 houses distance to stop the car. [about 150 feet]

So many different systems of cruise control, but from your explaination on how your's acts when you set the speed, a cable or chain from the servo to the accelerator has too much slack in it. Easy fix on a Ford.
__________________
Bob

2005 Safari 25-B
"Le Petit Chateau Argent"
[ Small Silver Castle ]
2000 Navigator / 2014 F-150 Eco-Boost / Equal-i-zer / P-3
YAMAHA 2400 / AIR #12144
ROBERTSUNRUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2010, 09:06 AM   #231
Rivet Master
 
Gene's Avatar
 
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction , Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
Bob, I thought the brakes would work that way because I remember that from being in a car being towed that had power brakes and how hard it was to control the braking. That was about 30 years ago, but the technology hasn't changed. That means to mean that once the engine is off, you have a couple of chances to stop the car with relatively normal power brakes and you only need one time to stop. If you pump the brakes, you got a problem pretty quickly. So, press the break pedal and don't let up.

Steering is another problem and you lose power steering immediately.

As for cruise, I thought the system of regulating fuel and therefore speed was totally electronic. But if the final link is mechanical, that's another problem. The problem I describe wouldn't affect acceleration, the "unintended" kind, though. Some relief in that. Another question to ask when I see the dealer—how does the cruise system link to the system—cable, chain or what?

It's good we have some guys here with lots of experience working for car dealers who actually understand how these things work.

Gene
__________________
Gene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2010, 09:33 AM   #232
Rivet Master
 
SteveH's Avatar
 
2005 39' Land Yacht 390 XL 396
Common Sense , Texas
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,311
Gene,

If you consider a servo (electric motor and gears) electronic, then that's what controls the final throttle, or butterfly in the air intake. It as well as the fuel injection is controlled by the 'puter.

Way too many things to go wrong IMHO, but they all do it that way today.
__________________
Regards,
Steve
SteveH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2010, 11:17 AM   #233
Rivet Master
 
Gene's Avatar
 
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction , Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
Gene,

If you consider a servo (electric motor and gears) electronic, then that's what controls the final throttle, or butterfly in the air intake. It as well as the fuel injection is controlled by the 'puter.

Way too many things to go wrong IMHO, but they all do it that way today.
No, not electronic, but a mechanical part which operates mechanically other mechanical stuff. I suppose those parts could get stuck too, or the electronics leading to it could be wacky. A lot more complex than the cable that used to control the throttle.

I temporarily "fixed" the throttle on a Jeep I had in the '70's when the cable burned in half. Yes, a fire under the hood, contained quickly with a couple of handfulls of sand. A friend happened by who had some gas line (the fire was caused by a hole in my gas line) with him, so we replaced the offending and melted line. I then used a rod that came with the top and threaded it through a hole (already there) in the firewall and attached it to the throttle linkage with some mechanic's wire. I could drive by pushing and pulling the rod from the cab until I got a new cable. It worked pretty well though steering and shifting were a challenge. Do not try this at home! Try and jury rig a car now with mechanic's wire.

Gene
__________________
Gene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2010, 11:34 AM   #234
1 Rivet Short
 
1989 25' Excella
By The Bay , Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,547
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
No, not electronic, but a mechanical part which operates mechanically other mechanical stuff. I suppose those parts could get stuck too, or the electronics leading to it could be wacky. A lot more complex than the cable that used to control the throttle.

I temporarily "fixed" the throttle on a Jeep I had in the '70's when the cable burned in half. Yes, a fire under the hood, contained quickly with a couple of handfulls of sand. A friend happened by who had some gas line (the fire was caused by a hole in my gas line) with him, so we replaced the offending and melted line. I then used a rod that came with the top and threaded it through a hole (already there) in the firewall and attached it to the throttle linkage with some mechanic's wire. I could drive by pushing and pulling the rod from the cab until I got a new cable. It worked pretty well though steering and shifting were a challenge. Do not try this at home! Try and jury rig a car now with mechanic's wire.

Gene
Hey Gene, I had a 71 CJ5 that was prone to the same behavior...in those days, I would open the hood and pour some beer on the external electronic fuel pump that was the culprit.
Don't think we could use that method of extinguishment today without raising some eye browse, and a trip to the slammer.
Drinking beer and riding around was typical in those days...some times evolution is a good thing. That was then...times have changed...

Bill
__________________
*Life is Good-Camping all around the Continent*
*Good people drink good beer-Hunter S Thompson*
BillTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2010, 01:16 PM   #235
Rivet Master
 
Gene's Avatar
 
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction , Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
Bill, mine was a '72 CJ5. I was entranced by the coolness of the yellow Jeep. Probably the worst vehicle I have ever owned. The short wheelbase made it prone to spinouts, the high center of gravity to tipping. It was assembled from whatever parts could be found cheap near Toledo. Chrysler rescued that marque from its self-destructiveness and greatly improved it, though it took time, a lot of time. The '80's Wagoneers were known for being bad vehicles too. The CJ5 Continental engine sucked gas like it owned an oil company. Beer is a risky fire extinguisher; better to have relieved yourself on the fuel pump.

Any contemporary vehicle is a vast improvement over those junkheaps.

Gene
__________________
Gene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2010, 01:17 PM   #236
Rivet Master
 
2011 25' FB Flying Cloud
Anywhere & , Everywhere
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,090
ow have an appointment to have the pedal fixed next week. This pedal gets the metal plate that's supposed to prevent the pedal from getting stuck while depressed. As much as I try to figure out how this will help, I can't. Maybe the dealer will show me and I'll certainly ask.

Gene[/QUOTE]

Made an appointment today to get my 2010 Tundra done next Tue at the Toyota dlr in Las Cruces, NM. Was surprised to get appointment this quick but will be nice to get it taken care of. Like you Gene I don't see how what they're doing is going to fix " sudden acceleration" but at least if it hits me they can't say it's because I didn't get the work done. When I bought mine I got the accessory Aluminum Sport Pedals and I was told today that the aluminum gas pedal would be removed and would be replaced with a regular pedal and that if I wanted it back on it would be up to me to do it after the truck had left the dealership. So if I decide not to replace mine wonder if Toyota is going to give me a refund - since they weren't exactly cheap. And I have not gotten a letter from Toyota yet and was told none is needed.
__________________
Al - K4GLU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2010, 01:26 PM   #237
1 Rivet Short
 
1989 25' Excella
By The Bay , Rhode Island
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,547
Images: 3
[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
Bill, mine was a '72 CJ5. I was entranced by the coolness of the yellow Jeep. Probably the worst vehicle I have ever owned. The short wheelbase made it prone to spinouts, the high center of gravity to tipping. It was assembled from whatever parts could be found cheap near Toledo. Chrysler rescued that marque from its self-destructiveness and greatly improved it, though it took time, a lot of time. The '80's Wagoneers were known for being bad vehicles too. The CJ5 Continental engine sucked gas like it owned an oil company.
Yeah, but they go like stink in the mud. I have owned a 71-79-83 jeeps...my Buddy owned one with a factory 304 ci V8...the thing would do wheelies. Terrible commuter vehicles, they really are 4 wheel motor cycles, and nothing can touch them off-road!

Quote:
Beer is a risky fire extinguisher; better to have relieved yourself on the fuel pump.
Unfortunatley, I was not so blessed that I could do this while standing on the ground...beer was cheap, readily available, and in the grade I was drinking then; not very flammable!
__________________
*Life is Good-Camping all around the Continent*
*Good people drink good beer-Hunter S Thompson*
BillTex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2010, 01:27 PM   #238
Rivet Master
 
Gene's Avatar
 
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction , Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,840
You can hang the Sport Pedal from the rear view mirror. I asked the dealer about the floor mats and got the impression they would leave them alone, but didn't really understand the guy.

If the gas pedal has more resistance, won't that tire your leg faster? One of the benefits, the major one to me, is that cruise means my right leg gets a rest and I can drive longer. If I disconnect the cruise control, I lose that benefit. Cruise is only a modern version of the hand throttle that used to be mounted on the steering column long ago except that they regulated how much fuel was delivered rather than speed. There have also been hand throttles on the dash in trucks. Nice simple system. Maybe we should put the spark advance back on the column too and a hand crank to start them. Imagine cranking a 400 hp. engine.

Gene
__________________

__________________
Gene is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help- sales to the US phibbs All Argosy Trailers 6 09-16-2009 10:13 AM
Airstream77 Sales ALANSD Commercial Listings 1 05-11-2008 07:46 AM
help with sales transaction please wheel interested Buyer Guidelines 7 07-23-2004 08:07 PM
AS Sales on the Web bonnisd Commercial Listings 9 12-08-2003 09:54 PM
Airstream Sales jcanavera Our Community 7 03-05-2003 11:06 AM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.