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05-03-2006, 08:35 PM
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#1
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Rivet Master
1976 25' Tradewind
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, Maine to Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 621
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Towing Weight Loss, Any Ideas?
Our 25' Tradewind is too heavy and costs too much to tow.
As we contemplate the trailer's restoration I think; How Light can we go?
The La Fumas are excellent lounge chairs and light, I ripped out the sofa but love the mattress..
We have a plastic table with removable legs and maple side chairs but no flamingos yet..
The twin beds will go for a queen size mattress in the back.
We love muffins and baked chicken so the oven stays but the pilot light goes..
The rear bath will be a center bath like the 22'CCDs.
Any ideas?
The Armstrong a/c is heavy but bullet proof and probably going to be rebuilt.
We have aluminum propane tanks and a flimsy frame.
Thought about an aluminum frame.
Any ideas?
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05-03-2006, 08:49 PM
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#2
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418
2007 25' Safari FB SE
1958 22' Flying Cloud
1974 29' Ambassador
Yucca Valley
, California
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1963 26' Overlander
Posts: 4,804
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Leave it as it is, get full inflation in radial tires, and slow down 5mph on the flats, and 10mph on hills. Drive with the water tank 1/4 full only. Remove unneeded seasonal items like blankets and jackets that you will not need. Bring less "stuff". Instant 2mpg.....
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05-03-2006, 09:29 PM
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#3
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Huh?
1975 27' Overlander
Twin Cities
, Minnesota
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 513
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Buy Scotch
It's much lighter than beer
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05-03-2006, 11:28 PM
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#4
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Rivet Master
Nipomo
, California
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 629
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With a queen-sized bed, you might want to consider the Select Comfort air mattress system. That might save a few pounds.
__________________
Mike Young & Rosemary Nelson
Bowlus Road Chief "Endymion"
BMW X3 xDrive 28D
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05-04-2006, 01:15 AM
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#5
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Rivet Master
1992 34' Limited
Falls Church
, Virginia
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 945
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Gas is STILL cheaper
Fastrob -
Gas is STILL cheaper ( even at the gouging levels seen these days!) than all the other things you are considering doing. Especially when you consider having to sell it someday.... Your grandkids maybe!?
Seriously. Gas/ diesel is still cheap - even over many years - when compared to all the time, thought, and $'s you are considering in possible changes.
Then again, it IS YOUR AirStream and you can do as you like....
Peace
Axel
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05-04-2006, 07:48 AM
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#6
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Rivet Master
1976 25' Tradewind
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, Maine to Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 621
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Ideas Wanted
Good thoughts,
Yes, Axel gas is still "cheap." So am I.
When in the USAF as an enlisted man, I liked flying for free.
Uwe is right on, and yes, Scotch is lighter than beer and a light mattress would help.
In addition:
I was thinking about a light frame under the bed. Or re-using the twins framing to make the queen frame. Airstreams are well thought out after all.
An aluminum floor instead of plywood? With cork or vinyl flooring over the aluminum? Or textured epoxy paint over the plywood?
A Shaker style Airstream, simple, lighter and very functionally efficient.
Uwe has an on board a/c that reduces drag.
How is that working out for you Uwe?
R
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05-04-2006, 07:59 AM
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#7
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Rivet Master
1995 25' Excella
1961 26' Overlander
1982 34' Limited
Albuquerque
, New Mexico
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 740
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How Light can we go?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastrob
Our 25' Tradewind is too heavy and costs too much to tow.
As we contemplate the trailer's restoration I think; How Light can we go?
Any ideas?
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If you have a conventional vacuum tube TV on board, you might swap it out for a light weight LCD flat panel TV.
__________________
Airstream25
KE5CKG on 2 meters
AIR #10274
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05-04-2006, 08:14 AM
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#8
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Rivet Master
Nipomo
, California
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 629
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As Airstream25 says, there are ways to reduce weight with more modern electronics. You could, for example, get a Mac laptop and have a TV, DVD, music, internet, email, phone, and videochat all in one. That's what we do (all except TV because while travelling we like not having TV).
The flat-panel TVs are heavy and limited in functionality.
For more info, you might want to start with http://digitalrv.net/blog/.
__________________
Mike Young & Rosemary Nelson
Bowlus Road Chief "Endymion"
BMW X3 xDrive 28D
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05-04-2006, 04:13 PM
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#9
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Just an old timer...
2004 22' Interstate
Tipton
, Iowa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,759
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Water weighs approximately 8lb/gallon. 30 gallons of water weighs 240lbs. I doubt that their is much else you can do to dump 240 lbs of excess weight any easier. You'll save a few pounds here and there with other 'stuff', but nothing like what merely emptying your tanks will do.
Talking about the cost of towing... it's literally insignificant compared to the number of miles you drive not towing. If you tow 2,000 miles a year and you get 5 mpg less towing than you get unladen... and your figures are 15 mpg and 10 mpg, you will use 67 more gallons of gas over that 2000 miles for a total of $186 at $2.79/gallon during the towing season. That translates to less than a tank and a half if you have a 40 gallon tank over your entire 2,000 mile towing summer. If the rest of the year you drive your tow vehicle an additional 12,000 miles at 15mpg at $2.79 a gallon, your unladen commuter miles will cost $2232. The extra $186 is pretty insignificant in the big picture of the cost of ownership of an Airstream.
Roger
__________________
havin' to fix my broken Airstreams since 1987...
AIR 2053 Current: 2004 Airstream Interstate "B-Van" T1N DODGE Sprinter
Former Airstreams: 1953 Flying Cloud, 1957 Overlander, 1961 Bambi, 1970 Safari Special, 1978 Argosy Minuet, 1985 325 Moho, 1994 Limited 34' Two-door, 1994 B190 "B-Van"
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05-04-2006, 04:52 PM
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#10
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Rivet Master
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,486
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While I can appreciate the desire to lighten the load, you are likely to be disappointed in the results if your primary concern is fuel economy. There have been many posts on these forums by people who have gone from a 19' to a 22' to a 30' and been amazed to discover their mpg remained virtually the same. This should not really be surprising, however, if you recognize that the biggest force at work (once at speed) is wind resistance.
You may find a lighter load easier on your tow vehicle, and towing generally may be more pleasant, but unless you do all your towing in the mountains you will see only a small change in fuel consumption.
Mark
__________________
'85 Sovereign, 25'
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05-04-2006, 06:15 PM
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#11
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Rivet Master
1973 23' Safari
1977 23' Safari
2018 25' Flying Cloud
Palmer Lake
, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,092
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Quote:
There have been many posts on these forums by people who have gone from a 19' to a 22' to a 30' and been amazed to discover their mpg remained virtually the same.
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I get 1/2 or maybe 1 more mpg when towing my 27' Overlander compared to my 18' Caravel!! The Overlander is 50% heavier, but it has what is known as a better "slenderness ratio" and therefore less drag (which is the only explanation I can come up with). Go figure. Maybe the AC isn't as big a relatvie bump on top, or something. I know the brakes aren't on--after 10 hours at 65 they aren't on fire or even very warm (on either trailer).
Maybe the F250 diesel is too dumb to know the difference... sorry, baby.
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05-04-2006, 06:21 PM
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#12
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Retired.
Currently Looking...
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, At Large
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,276
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If you ditch the Univolt, and install an Intellipower (or equivalent), if you haven't done so, you can save another 25 or more pounds.
And if you feel like getting silly, you could inflate the air mattress with Helium...
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.
Terry
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05-04-2006, 06:35 PM
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#13
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418
2007 25' Safari FB SE
1958 22' Flying Cloud
1974 29' Ambassador
Yucca Valley
, California
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1963 26' Overlander
Posts: 4,804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastrob
Uwe has an on board a/c that reduces drag.
How is that working out for you Uwe?
R
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Haven't a clue if it helps with drag, if so, then it's probably marginal. It does tow nice with a low center of gravity, that I do know.
As far as the A/C's performance; hard to tell, it's been cool in California, have not needed it this year.
When I used it pre-interior build-out, it was very efficient at 90F. This summer will be the proof of the pudding, as they say, when I'm going to Austin Tx in July for business with the Airstream in shlep.
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05-05-2006, 05:25 AM
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#14
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Rivet Master
1976 25' Tradewind
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, Maine to Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 621
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Going Smaller?
Boy you guys are good.
The thought is to go from, currently, a V8 pickup with 6,000lbs tow capacity to a V6 with a 5-6,000 tow capacity.
The dry weight is 4,110, tongue is 610 lbs. GMVW or GVMW is 5,800 I believe. If we put in 1,000 lbs personal stuff the unit is good to go with the P/U at 80% of tow capacity.
Thinking that a little weight mismanagement would help stay with-in the load limits of a V6 is the ultimate goal.
But whatever is done a plow must hang from the front of the tow vehicle to clean the 1/4 mile driveway.
Huh?
R
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05-05-2006, 05:31 AM
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#15
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Just an old timer...
2004 22' Interstate
Tipton
, Iowa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,759
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Rob, when I tow my 34' at 8,500 lbs with my 6.8l V10 Excursion I average 11-12 mpg towing. When I pull my 16' Scamp at 3,000 lbs with my Excursion, I get 12-14 mpg. When I pull my 16' Scamp with my 3.4l V6 Tundra, I get 14-15 mpg highway towing. I get about 17 mpg highway with the Tundra, and only about 12 city only.
Keep your V8. You'll lose a ton of power with a V6 and won't see a significant increase in gas mileage and it may be worse towing.
Roger
__________________
havin' to fix my broken Airstreams since 1987...
AIR 2053 Current: 2004 Airstream Interstate "B-Van" T1N DODGE Sprinter
Former Airstreams: 1953 Flying Cloud, 1957 Overlander, 1961 Bambi, 1970 Safari Special, 1978 Argosy Minuet, 1985 325 Moho, 1994 Limited 34' Two-door, 1994 B190 "B-Van"
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05-05-2006, 10:29 AM
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#16
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Rivet Master
2019 27' Flying Cloud
Albuquerque
, New Mexico
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,917
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False Economy?
Rob,
You may be obsessing over the wrong thing. You should be looking for the best towing performance and safe handling. With your trailer, a V-6 will deliver neither. And guess what? Since the V-6 will be underpowered for what you want it to do, you will use more gasoline not less. Been there, done that.
So, empty your fresh water holding tank as suggested. Get a flat panel TV. Get rid of the Univolt for an Intelpower converter, leave the sewing machine and breadmaker at home, etc.
Remember, adjusted for inflation, gasoline is still a bargain in the good ol' United States. Despite all the politically motivated grief they take, the oil companies are doing a great job exploring, drilling, transporting, refining, transporting, and ensuring that there is gasoline available to us just about anywhere we travel. Exxon-Mobile continues to make about 7.5 cents per gallon when all is said and done. You pay more than 50 cents in taxes on the same gallon.
So, quit obsessing, enjoy the trip, and be greatful that we live in such a great Nation. By the way, I have had a 23' a 27' and now a 31' Airstream. Fuel consumption towing the 23' was same as the 31.' Check this thread for more information: http://www.airforums.com/forum...wing+Mountains
__________________
Ken L 2019 Flying Cloud 27FB
2020 GMC Sierra 1500 Crew Cab 6.2L Max Tow Four Corners Unit WBCCI #5783
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05-06-2006, 12:28 PM
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#17
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Rivet Master
1976 25' Tradewind
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, Maine to Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 621
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<Maybe>
Quote:
Originally Posted by klevan
Rob,
You may be obsessing over the wrong thing. You should be looking for the best towing performance and safe handling. With your trailer, a V-6 will deliver neither. And guess what? Since the V-6 will be underpowered for what you want it to do, you will use more gasoline not less. Been there, done that.
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You might very well be right, right on.
My pickup, 03 GMC 4.8l is not holding up to the roads in Maine (4 tie rod ends replaced in less than 3 years) and the gas mileage stinks (15mpg). I was thinking about a V6 for the 25,000 miles and some good execution from Honda or Toyota. Just read about a 300 hp 4 cylinder production car.
I have time and a slick Airstream is my goal.
Was a little surprised when I found out that it only weighed 4110 dry.
R
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05-06-2006, 03:57 PM
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#18
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Rivet Master
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastrob
You might very well be right, right on.
My pickup, 03 GMC 4.8l is not holding up to the roads in Maine (4 tie rod ends replaced in less than 3 years) and the gas mileage stinks (15mpg). I was thinking about a V6 for the 25,000 miles and some good execution from Honda or Toyota. Just read about a 300 hp 4 cylinder production car.
I have time and a slick Airstream is my goal.
Was a little surprised when I found out that it only weighed 4110 dry.
R
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The tie rod end problem is surprising; however GM suspension pieces have a history of under-engineering. I like Moog aftermarket parts. I've seen GM idler arms go out in 40,000 miles, for example, and the Moog replacement to last the next 200,000. My '04 Silverado 2500 diesel 4X4 has yet to have its first repair and I just rolled over 40,000 miles. 17 mpg in daily driving, 20 mpg on the highway (actual measure, not the computer).
It depends upon driving conditions and so forth, but I know several owners of Nissan, Toyota, Mazda pickups that do no better in daily driving - 15 mpg normal, 18 mpg max in highway driving. Again, just as in towing, the culprit is wind resistence. The aerodynamics of a pickup are lousy.
I'd weigh that Tradewind on a scale before I made any buying decisions. The 4110 lbs. is published weight, and those figures are notoriously optimistic.
You have a highly desirable coach, and the efforts you are making to make it better will doubtless pay off.
Mark
__________________
'85 Sovereign, 25'
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05-06-2006, 04:21 PM
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#19
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4 Rivet Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 411
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There really is not room for a queen size bed in your Tradewind. You need walk-around space around the bed. By the time you get a center bath installed (IF you can find all the peices required) you'll have very little room left for the kitchen and lounge area. My recommendation is also to leave it as is and concentrate on not taking so much stuff with you. I've just finished some work on a '71 Overlander that was so full of glassware, dishes, silverware, kitchen and cleaning supplies to furnish a regular house, and TWO feather beds, that the axels were sagging. Radically modifying an Airstream like you're intending will reduce the resale value drastically and the amount of work you'll need to pour into it will never be repaid either in dollars or pleasure. If you must get a smaller tow vehicle, get a smaller trailer to go with it. Darol
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05-06-2006, 04:48 PM
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#20
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Rivet Master
1984 31' Excella
Broken Arrow
, Oklahoma
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 673
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Towing Weight Loss, Any Ideas?
I tow with a 1990 GMC RallySTX 3500 van, 350ci Throttlebody electronic fuel injection,700R4(4L60) Transmission,4:11 Positraction rear end.
With 9 teenage girls, their luggage for a 4 day weekend and two other adults (female) both ACs cranking I have gotton as good as 22 MPG(65 mph). Pulling a SOB, 5-7 MPG, pulling my 31 ft 84 Excella, 12 - 14 mpg(60-66 mph).
Keep this in mind, a semi tractor trailer generally has less than 400 hp but pulls over 60,000 of load through the mountains, usually not too fast.
My point, you dont have to gain speed going up a mountain grade, thats what the right lane was made for.
Take it easy, enjoy the ride. The guys that gain speed going up the mountain usually have dropped a large chunk of change in diesels or 454s or 460 etc. They like gas very much.
As long as the tv runs good, the transmission runs cool and the radiator keeps the water temperature within normal range, enjoy. Oh by the way, my van at 70 mph gets 14 mpg without the trailer.
Keep the engine in tune (good plugs, Engine computer managment system interagated occasionally, O2 sensor replaced on a regular basis, THERMOSTAT KEEPING THE WATER TEMPERATURE WITHIN RANGE FOR YOUR VEHICLE, and so on). This will help a grear deal. Also, keep your foot out of it.
This is what works for me.
just my two cents worth
Beginner
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