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Old 02-13-2009, 01:31 PM   #15
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Well, Gene, some of us would contend FDR actually exacerbated the Depression. Economics aside, strong companies can get money. The credit markets are a bit stickier and the spread is higher than some would like. For CW to jump on $20m at 12 percent for a year smells of desperation to me... much like Buffet-Constellation deal.
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Old 02-13-2009, 08:24 PM   #16
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It's pretty well documented that FDR's policies may have extended the depression and that the build up to WWII did more to create jobs then the WPA.

I have a WPA tourist publication about San Diego published in 1937. I take great delight in sharing some of the most politically incorrect passages with my liberal friends!
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Old 02-13-2009, 09:40 PM   #17
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The ONLY good thing about this is that Thor must be sitting a bunch of cash and that's a good thing nowadays. I thought the oil companies should have loaned some of their windfall profits to the autos for 10/15%. Another good symbiotic relationship if there ever was one.
As to last two posters and FDR..... hmmm well I am glad you're the minority now...
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Old 02-14-2009, 05:02 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis4x4 View Post
It's pretty well documented that FDR's policies may have extended the depression and that the build up to WWII did more to create jobs then the WPA.

I have a WPA tourist publication about San Diego published in 1937. I take great delight in sharing some of the most politically incorrect passages with my liberal friends!
Pretty Well....no thanks.

I'm living in the Sixties....Thirties....NOT.
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Old 02-14-2009, 05:04 AM   #19
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Where I live there is no Camping World or Airstream dealers. Neither has very much for my rig anyhow so they are not missed too much.
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Old 02-14-2009, 05:18 AM   #20
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During the time of our socio-ecomomical decline and status, I, too, am in a world of worry...Our hospitial is claiming bankruptcy...Who would EVER think that healthcare would experience such a level of decline???? At least I DO have an AS that is paid for--granted she needs a world of renovations---At least if I lose my home, I still have my AS...Poor gal, she has to rely on me to fix her up!!!
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Old 02-14-2009, 01:00 PM   #21
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2-4-6-8 Stimulate!

Quote:
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It's pretty well documented that FDR's policies may have extended the depression and that the build up to WWII did more to create jobs then the WPA.
I think the great majority of opinion by economists and historians is that this happened:

1. The Hoover administration did very little except to establish the Reconstruction Finanance Corp. to provide a little bit of stimulus and the result was the Depression got worse. The Depression actually started in the agricultural sector not long after WW I and far more people were farmers in the 1920's than now—maybe 40+% compared to 1 or 2% now—so there was fundamental weakness for years before the stock market decline in October, 1929. Nothing was done for the ag sector in the '20's except some states enacted mortgage moratoriums* to prevent banks from taking farms. The first 3 1/2 years of the Depression were during Hoover's term.

2. In FDR's 1st term, a lot more was done to stimulate the economy (WPA and CCC are most well known to most people, but the Glass Steagal Act regulated banking and parts of the equities markets). The result was unemployment was cut in half. The stimulus wasn't enough, but, like now, there was opposition and compromise which prolonged the Depression.

3. In the beginning of FDR's 2nd term, he supported balancing the budget and removing stimulus and the result was a reversal of economic improvement and the need to re-stimulate. This revived and prolonged the Depression.

4. WWII provided a great deal of stimulus, but very inefficient stimulus since military spending has very limited stimulation—after all, a lot of it is to destroy things. Military spending produces less than a dollar for every dollar spent.

Thus being too cautious in providing stimulus did prolong the Depression. The present stimulus is, I believe, also too cautious.

The best stimulation will not only create jobs, but do things that will cause more production and national efficiency. Thus, for ex., transportation and communication improvements pay off many times because a modern economy needs both to thrive. China is pouring money into new highways and railroads, far more than we are. The stimulus has to go beyond "shovel ready" because it will be needed for several years to come—you don't turn this around in 6 or 12 months. Money should be going for planning for shovels in 2010 and 2011.

An interesting sidelight is that the tax credits and deductions to stimulate purchase of autos and trucks also apply to motorhomes under 8,500# (I might be off 500#, I read this earlier today). The information didn't seem to say trailers would be covered, but there's so much in the bill, I'm having trouble finding out everything. It seemed to only cover vehicles with engines. If so, it might benefit Thor and CW, but not Airstream except for the conversion vans.

The payments of $400/individual apparently only apply to people who are working. Social Security recipients will get a one time payment of $250. People on pensions, people relying on income from investments, people who have used up unemployment insurance payments, get nothing. So we get $250 (my young trophy wife doesn't get Social Security and we are both retired). I guess there's something for everyone to like and dislike in the bill. I'm sure hoping the stock market recovers and dividends stop being cut. I expect fellow retirees will have little reason to purchase a trailer until the markets improve significantly, although with $250 I can buy some toys for the trailer (or medication for me).

Gene

*As a long ago Latin student, I think it should be "moratoria", but such usage seems to have disappeared and no one would understand the word except fellow sufferers of all those declensions.
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Old 02-14-2009, 01:37 PM   #22
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2. In FDR's 1st term, a lot more was done to stimulate the economy (WPA and CCC are most well known to most people, but the Glass Steagal Act regulated banking and parts of the equities markets). The result was unemployment was cut in half. The stimulus wasn't enough, but, like now, there was opposition and compromise which prolonged the Depression.

The repeal of the Glass Steagal act during Clinton's watch probably did more to cause today's problems along with the Demoracts blocking oversight on Fanny and Freddy than any other factor.

There's $30 million to preserve mouse habitat in Pelosi's district, yet not single mention of lowering capital gains or corporate income tax rates. The mouse will not create jobs, a lowering of business tax rates will.

As more and more people remain in their jobs past retirement, there will be fewer jobs for new college graduates. The real crime here is the fact that there were 1100+ pages that were dumped on the legislators with no time to read the bill before voting.

There should be a requirement that all congresspersons and senators must have spent at least five years in the private sector and understand what it takes to make a payroll every week.

The tax credit for purchasing a new car or truck was dropped and there was a lack of info on the RV credit in the San Diego Union.
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Old 02-14-2009, 02:25 PM   #23
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Just to keep you honest on the mouse fib..... Congress Matters ::

Also, "The repeal of the Glass Steagal act during Clinton's watch" is technically true.
It was Clinton's final budget bill and highly contested, much like the stimulus bill trying to make it through congress now. It was down to the deadline without a budget and a lot of deal making going on. Phil Gram talked Sen. Luger into including the amendment to repeal Glass Steagal act in the dark of the night. He had been trying for years to repeal it.
So technically it was on Cinton's watch, but still Phil Gramm's doing.

If McCain would have won Phil Gramm would be Larry Summers and John Thain (1.2 million bathroom at Merril ) would be Geitner.


Plenty of blame to go around..... My personal opinion, that isn't worth too much, is the belief that deficit spending doesn't matter and lack of regulation did us in....
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Old 02-14-2009, 02:35 PM   #24
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I agree the repeal of the Glass Steagal Act was a mistake, but even if it had not been repealed it may not have covered the financial instruments created later. I think the Federal Reserve and SEC have not been good watchdogs since 2001 and they did not recommend legislation to control Wall St. Instead Wall St. was encouraged to create instruments that are now plaguing us. I think both parties were lax where Freddie and Fannie are concerned.

The overriding factor is that bankers created the financial instruments that were speculative. Bankers and mortgage companies issued stupid mortgages to people who didn't have clue what they were signing.

The story about money to protect marshland which coincidentally would protect a certain type of mouse is a fabrication posted on the internet. A neighbor told my wife the other day it was $50,000,000. Usually the story is $30,000,000. A Congressional staffer took a statement that a federal agency would like to protect marshland (the mouse part was a small part of the hoped for project) and decided to promote the idea that it was in the stimulus bill. That staffer has since admitted it is not and never was in the stimulus bill. Other myths about things that are claimed to be in the stimulus are circulating on the internet and show up on TV. Opponents of the bill get some TV time with this stuff.

So far as the tax credit and deductions for new vehicles, I got my information from the NY Times this morning. Whatever you can say about the Times' editorials, it still is one of very few newspapers with comprehensive and objective coverage. Some stuff has been in and out of the bill several times, so it gets pretty confusing.

Instead of requiring all reps and senators to work in the private sector, how about requiring them to be poor for five years? That is an eye opening experience. And then they should get a graduate degree where they can learn how to do research and logically assess facts and come to rational conclusions. A law degree helps so they know what legislation actually does. An advanced degree in public administration should help them understand how government works. Also some advanced study of ethics. I'm sure there are many other life experiences that would be helpful. Of course, this would mean amending the Constitution, not a particularly easy thing to do.

Many very long bills have been dumped on Congress over the years. Reps and senators have large staffs. Those are the people who actually read these things (and come up with myths like the mouse story). The Washington Post and NY Times managed to read through it, surely the staff members could. The basic bill has been around for several weeks—the amendments come frequently and once the original bill was read, all you have to do is read the amendments, not read the whole thing over and over. Waving the bill around and then dropping on the floor was theater for a TV clip, not the reality of legislative drafting. Everyone would like more time and the fact is there isn't more time. Even in normal years legislators never have enough time to look carefully at everything. I'm not sure there's any solution to that excepot abolish the government.

Gene
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:08 PM   #25
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Yup.
I had to laugh at one senator complaining he didn't have time to read the bill. Those guys don't read any of the bills. Not one. No one read the Patriot bill for example. The senators don't write any of the bills either. Lobbyists write the bills completely and hand them to the congressman.
I agree that the repeal of the Glass Steagal was just a start of the problem. There were long debates in Congress in the early 2000's on whether to create the " Phantom banking system" that investment banks wanted.
Greenspan was an advocate for deregulation ,as was Paulson. They argued that private investment banks didn't need regulation because they were super smart and would not take unnecessary risks. They argued that risk would be fairly priced....That worked out real well.
A friend was complaining about people on welfare being a problem. I told him " wait till you see what the rich people just did to you. You haven't seen anything yet. The magnitude of this unimaginable." We don't even know how big the problem is because we can not look at the books and see what's going on. The banks won't tell us because they are insolvent. Insolvent to the tune of 1.6 trillion dollars.
If you can handle it... google "Nouriel Roubini" Dr Doom,,,, but not right before you go to bed..
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:33 PM   #26
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the build up to WWII did more to create jobs then the WPA.
This is not the case. The depression was over by 1934. In fact the economy was doing so well by 1936 the government deliberately pulled back, causing the Roosevelt Recession of 1937 - 38.

The war only started in 1939. There was some buying from overseas. The big buildup in the US did not start until after Pearl Harbor in December 1941. In other words the big war buying did not start until 1942.
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:47 PM   #27
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no ethics= disaster

The problem, we've had a Democracy the last decade......Just wild video
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:25 PM   #28
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This dialog is interesting. However, I'm more concerned about an escalating class warfare that is creeping into this and several other forums I check on a daily basis.

Crawford Gene said,
"Instead of requiring all reps and senators to work in the private sector, how about requiring them to be poor for five years? That is an eye opening experience. And then they should get a graduate degree where they can learn how to do research and logically assess facts and come to rational conclusion".

With all due respect Gene, If you own a business and make sure your employees are paid first, you usually are poor! It's been my experience that most successful business owners usually have the ability to research, assess facts and reach rational conclusions in order to succeed based of real life experiences.

Perhaps we need to ban attorneys from holding office for 10 years and rely on common sense!
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