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Chuck · 01-04-2007, 04:09 PM

well, I don't think anyone was suggesting that we put a tail wheel on the airstream...but now that you mention it...hmmm......

might help with that pesky rear-end sag problem I keep hearing about, too.

ljmiii · 01-04-2007, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickandsandi

...I would have thought you would have done all your homework before purchasing your AS.

I did my homework...nowhere in the research process did the phrases 'wet battery' or 'drum brake' appear. It just never occurred to me to ask about drum brakes anymore than it would to ask if my prospective new car had a tesla coil.

This is all part of what has amazed me - how much of what is taken for granted in the world of RVing is different. And yes, it is a world of which I was completely ignorant and am slowly becoming less so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickandsandi

So if I were you (thank goodness I am not) do your research before attacking our loved Airstreams! Or do what the rest of us do. Change it if you don't like it!

I'm not in anyway suggesting that other brands are better than Airstreams. I am saying that I am amazed that it is considered 'normal' to ship...

...brakes that require 25-50% greater stopping distance.
...batteries that require maintenance every two weeks and which are unpleasant to be around in an accident.
...trailers which can't be fully used (ie with water) without either exceeding the GVWR or replacing the axle.

I love my Airstream...and my family has loved the time we've had it in it...and we're very excited about the trip we're currently planning for the Spring. But it is wrong that I have to 'Change it if I don't like it' in order to start a trip with full water tanks.

enjoy,
leo

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickandsandi

For someone who spends way too much time trying to make numbers make sense because you want them to...

Blame that on my being trained as a scientist then working as an engineer. And finding that an engineer's 'accepted wisdom' is all too often a synonym for 'repeated unexamined error'...;-)

Silvertwinkie · 01-04-2007, 05:02 PM

I'm a bit torn myself. I mean on one side, that do work better and have a bit less maint, but then OTOH, it's 3500lbs. My boat trailer I've towed for 12 years, had emerg braking, manuvers, etc and the car and truck were both up to stopping the rig safely....and the boat trailer has no brakes (it's a 1964 Glasspar) and it weighs 3000lbs. So in my mind a 3500lb RV that has brakes...........

I guess if I saw you had a heavier RV (6000lbs or more), I'd feel more ready to agree, but if you have the $$$ and really want discs, go for it.

Airstream ships the premium models with discs. Yea, it'd be nice to have them on my 25' Safari, but the drums do work very well, particularly when the tow vehicle has it's brakes properly maintained. What I mean by that is that the trailer brakes alone won't typically stop the rig, but provide a bit more help to the TVs brakes towing the load.

JD Dawson · 01-04-2007, 05:52 PM

convert drum to disc???why not???maybe more money than cents!!!

Silvertwinkie · 01-04-2007, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD Dawson

convert drum to disc???why not???maybe more money than cents!!!

I agree, my only question though is it worth it on a 16' RV that weighs 3500lbs and has more that great breaks already for it's size and weight? Would discs really provide that much more for something so light? If they do, great.......I'm just asking the question.

doorgunner · 01-04-2007, 05:57 PM

here's my opinion; seems as I've read a lot of posts on this forum about folks having not enough TV to deal with their trailer.So if you do not have what it takes to pull it what makes you think you can stop it? get my drift. I'm needing axles for my 32 excella and will be upgrading to discs at that time, and probably 16" rims also.but I've got an older AS and have the money to make safety improvements. Now about the Cub!! I gave my daughter her first small plane ride with me in a Cub. A perfect day, speaking of perfect days hey J.Rick tell me you were a Marine pilot. Semper Fi Tim

Silvertwinkie · 01-04-2007, 05:58 PM

I'm all for having the right tow vehicle and in your case with a larger coach, I can agree fully with why you'd go disc, but on a 16'? Besides the fact of the size and weight, what about real estate. That brake system has to be installed somewhere...on a 16' space can be kind of tight already......

ljmiii · 01-04-2007, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

I'm a bit torn myself. I mean on one side, that do work better and have a bit less maint, but then OTOH, it's 3500lbs....

As I said in my original post, I recognize that the choice to move to disc brakes is probably not rational. Disc brakes do stop better, fail less often, and require less maintainence. But I wouldn't be doing it if I wasn't having them upgrade my axles at the same time. And the axle upgrade does increases my GVWR up to 4300lbs so better brakes are probably a good idea.

Silvertwinkie · 01-04-2007, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljmiii

As I said in my original post, I recognize that the choice to move to disc brakes is probably not rational. Disc brakes do stop better, fail less often, and require less maintainence. But I wouldn't be doing it if I wasn't having them upgrade my axles at the same time. And the axle upgrade does increases my GVWR up to 4300lbs so better brakes are probably a good idea.

Gotcha....guess I must have missed that part that the axles will be off already....but let me ask you another question....where are you gonna put the extra gear that would require an additional 800lbs of axle rating? I've been in a few 16' units and there isn't a lot of space for the "extras" per se.

You must really like that 16' I might have gone to a 19' myself, but hey, we all like what we like!

doorgunner · 01-04-2007, 06:04 PM

silvertwinkie I have a 32 foot excella 16 inch rims upgrade not a 16 foot wannabe trailer, ha

Silvertwinkie · 01-04-2007, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doorgunner

silvertwinkie I have a 32 foot excella 16 inch rims upgrade not a 16 foot wannabe trailer, ha

Yea, I figured that part.

uwe · 01-04-2007, 06:08 PM

I would think that a single axle, roughly 4000lb max trailer would especially need the discs, as opposed to a 22 or 23 footer with dual axles and 4 brakes.
Airstream does supply them on their premium dual axle trailers, which some of them don't weigh twice as much as the 16.
And, don't forget the added value of having a better balanced running gear.

Silvertwinkie · 01-04-2007, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uwe

I would think that a single axle, roughly 4000lb max trailer would especially need the discs, as opposed to a 22 or 23 footer with dual axles and 4 brakes.
Airstream does supply them on their premium dual axle trailers, which some of them don't weigh twice as much as the 16.
And, don't forget the added value of having a better balanced running gear.

I suppose you're right. Just seems like a good expense to go through.....

BTW, looking at the Airstream site, every Classic has discs, and even the smallest Classic is more than 2x the weight of a 3500 16 footer (GVWR is what I'm going by).

uwe · 01-04-2007, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

BTW, looking at the Airstream site, every Classic has discs, and even the smallest Classic is more than 2x the weight of a 3500 16 footer (GVWR is what I'm going by).

It recently became apparent that Airstream's published weights don't always reflect the facts. However, if the 16's are understated in their actual weight, then perhaps the larger trailers are as well, making this a moot point.

rickandsandi · 01-04-2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doorgunner

Now about the Cub!! I gave my daughter her first small plane ride with me in a Cub. A perfect day, speaking of perfect days hey J.Rick tell me you were a Marine pilot. Semper Fi Tim

Hey Doorgunner- Sorry, NAVY! I had a marine cabin boy though, does that count? As just mentioned above, yes, if you have the correct tow vehicle for what you are towing, brakes become secondary to a small point. The absolute correct match of TV to TT is that the TT brakes are for stability purposes only and not for stopping. We have come to the belief that the TT must also contribute 50% of the stop which actually is incorrect. Yes, the new disk brakes are very cool, but who, or what is supposed to be stopping what? First flight for any kid is a wonderful thing and the cub is perfect. I was very lucky growing up to start flying a Mooney at age 7. And the worst case of a controlled crash is night landing on a carrier during combat when all is dark and all you see is a ball. I would never RIO on a F-14, especially with me on the stick.

Jim Clark · 01-04-2007, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickandsandi

Hey Doorgunner- Sorry, NAVY! I had a marine cabin boy though, does that count? As just mentioned above, yes, if you have the correct tow vehicle for what you are towing, brakes become secondary to a small point. The absolute correct match of TV to TT is that the TT brakes are for stability purposes only and not for stopping. We have come to the belief that the TT must also contribute 50% of the stop which actually is incorrect. Yes, the new disk brakes are very cool, but who, or what is supposed to be stopping what? First flight for any kid is a wonderful thing and the cub is perfect. I was very lucky growing up to start flying a Mooney at age 7. And the worst case of a controlled crash is night landing on a carrier during combat when all is dark and all you see is a ball. I would never RIO on a F-14, especially with me on the stick.

I always liked you flyboys, always got me combat pay during Vietnam. I was riding the Plane Guard DE.

Thanks Jim

doorgunner · 01-04-2007, 06:56 PM

Hey Jim- Seeins as you are from New Orlans
I was attached to HMM-263 69-70 one of my squadron mates -Mike Clausen- was from N.O. Did you know him?? He was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. A day of flying I will always remember.

ljmiii · 01-04-2007, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doorgunner

Here's my opinion; seems as I've read a lot of posts on this forum about folks having not enough TV to deal with their trailer.So if you do not have what it takes to pull it what makes you think you can stop it? get my drift.

I started this thread to see if anyone else had experieced the same 'technology shock' when they started to get into RVing. And it seems the thread has to a certain extent refocused into a discussion of braking systems. So let's see if I can bring these ideas back together...

The most common car in America is the Camry. A base level Camry is about $18,000 and 3300 lbs. It has 16" wheels, 4 disc brakes, ABS, and a limited braking stability system called Brake Assist. More expensive Camrys come with larger wheels and brakes and full on Vehicle Stability Control and Traction Control. My Airstream was about $45,000 and an unladen weight of about 3200 lbs. It has 14" wheels, 2 drum brakes, and no electronic braking assistance. And this is considered normal.

As I've thought about this (admittedly for all of an hour or so) it occurs to me that most trailers are probably ridiculously underbraked. To compensate for the lack of braking ability we've been trained to put large vehicles in front. And to compensate for the lack of braking electronics we've been trained to introduce quirky anti-sway systems* and yet bigger vehicles in front.

Even the $18,000 Camry stops on a dime and is very difficult to put into a spin. It amazes me...;-)...that there is no one in the RV world working with Ford (or Toyota or GM) to create a trailer chassis with serious brakes that integrate into the tow vehicle's ABS and VSC systems.

enjoy,
leo

*Excepting that most elegant yet simple piece of engineering - the Hensley Arrow.

ljmiii · 01-04-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

Where are you gonna put the extra gear that would require an additional 800lbs of axle rating? I've been in a few 16' units and there isn't a lot of space for the "extras" per se.

You must really like that 16'! I might have gone to a 19' myself, but hey, we all like what we like!

I do love the 16'er....we liked the look of the 19' 75th anniversary edition but perversely enough it didn't have enough space for the four of us. The thing about the 16' Bambi is that it has an enormous amount of storage and bed space for its size - it just doesn't have any floor space. The 16'er is great as a bed and breakfast - you just don't want to try to live in it.

enjoy,
leo

Silvertwinkie · 01-04-2007, 07:37 PM

Leo. To answer your question no, I was not shocked by the fact that I had drum brakes. I knew that going into it. My 5300lb Caprice/Impala SS Clone has front disc, rear drum and it too brakes fine as the a 3000lb Camry in relation to the size and weight differences. My real SS has 4 wheel disc and to be honest, it's all in the proportioning of the brakes that makes the 4 wheel disc much better, at least on that car.

I place a big tow vehicle in front of my coach not so much because I worry on how to stop, I know, even in an emerg, it stops great. I put a big tow vehicle in front because of wheelbase, and power to move 6300lbs of RV, 6000+lbs of SUV and about 800lbs of passengers, cargo, fuel, etc. When I test the brakes on the Safari as I am leaving, I can get the truck to stop with the trailer brakes alone at low speed. I also am not sure I agree folks put sway control on due to lack of brakes. As I said earlier, the drum brakes might not be as good as disc brakes, but they are not by any measure "ridiculously underbraked". I have 4 drums on the Safari and have seen 2 hard braking manuver situations happen. At no time did the brakes on the Safari (drum brakes) fall short. Now I do have 4 drum brakes cause I have 2 axles, compared to your single axle.

As for loving the 16', it's easy to understand way. It is a great unit to own an if you are happy with it, pulling the axles already, why not if $$ isn't an issue and it gives you piece of mind.

I have to believe though that the Airstream engineers knew what they were doing when they designed, built and sold RVs.