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Old 01-04-2007, 03:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
you got a cub?! oooh...we need to chat!

so...no brakes by design? or are they just "missing"?

the Champ my dad had had brakes. very similar ride...Now that I think of it, I would feel a bit uneasy without them. I remember watching the cub do "brake stands"...so I would think that some of them must have had brakes. maybe that was a "super cub"...anyway, I have a vivid memory of watching the cub pilot "fly" the tail, without the airplane actually moving. tried it w/ the champ...wouldn't do it. almost...but not quite. although, in the winter, it was typically off the ground before I could get the throttle all the way open. (solo) but it did have to have forward motion...
Your Champ has a little too much tourque to do a tail stand. I have a flatter prop which will allow a tail stand and less HP. I used to be able to do a tail stand in my F-14C at 45K feet too! But it didn't like it too much and actually flamed the port engine once. My RIO got pretty upset and I think he wet his pants. I think I got a bunch of mice turds in my wheels and the cables are either jammed or corroded. A lesson for all AS owners, keep the mice out!
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Old 01-04-2007, 03:12 PM   #16
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I had a 1971 Tradewind with brand new drum brakes, and now have a 1963 Overlander with brand new hydraulic disc brakes.
Same tow vehicle, and same brake controller.
I would never go back to electric drum trailer brakes, the stopping power , balance, and smoothness is simply that much better. There is a wonderful brake feel to these systems, and no brake fade whatsoever. Not at all true with drum brakes.
The other advantage of brake discs vs. brake drums is running gear balance.
The brake discs have inherently a much better potential to be in balance as brake drums will ever have. I would spend the extra money just to eliminate this one issue from the towing experience. It is no longer necessary to have the drums/whell assemblies balanced for a smooth ride, simple tire/wheel balance will suffice to ensure a balanced running assembly.
To sum this up, I would definitely not dismiss the brake disc upgrade so quickly, there's more to it than meets the eye.
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Old 01-04-2007, 03:51 PM   #17
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Huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdalrymple
In the example of disk or drum brakes, the perfomance is nearly the same for the application at hand. Compatability of brake controllers, universal availibilty of parts, the ease of use, all lead to one see that there is no real need for change. They still do the job well, use is widespread, and thereby cheap.
The disc brake testing that I have been involved with shows the disc brake will stop about 50% faster than an electric drum brake. Wouldn't that make them twice as good.

Disc's are more expensive up front - but I think there are fewer parts to fail and replace in the long run. Pad replacement is very simple.

Just two cents from a retired axle dude!

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Old 01-04-2007, 03:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickandsandi
Your Champ has a little too much tourque to do a tail stand. I have a flatter prop which will allow a tail stand and less HP.
"too much torque??" I'd have guessed the other way around. had the same C-65 engine that the cubs use...I figured it was just a "balance" thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickandsandi
...My RIO got pretty upset and I think he wet his pants..
I've heard it said that the scariest thing in the world is to try and land one of those things on a pitching, rolling deck in bad weather at night. An ex-RIO corrected me, saying that the scariest thing was being stuck helpless in the back seat, watching someone attempt the former.
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Old 01-04-2007, 03:57 PM   #19
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Sounds as if Airstream prefers to be on the trailing edge of technology when it comes to brakes.


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Old 01-04-2007, 04:45 PM   #20
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One reason I prefer disc brakes is that they are easily inspected and relined, especially with alloy rims that have big holes

As far as the Piper Cub goes: Who would want to ground loop an Airstream?
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Old 01-04-2007, 05:09 PM   #21
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well, I don't think anyone was suggesting that we put a tail wheel on the airstream...but now that you mention it...hmmm...... might help with that pesky rear-end sag problem I keep hearing about, too.
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Old 01-04-2007, 05:25 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickandsandi
...I would have thought you would have done all your homework before purchasing your AS.
I did my homework...nowhere in the research process did the phrases 'wet battery' or 'drum brake' appear. It just never occurred to me to ask about drum brakes anymore than it would to ask if my prospective new car had a tesla coil.

This is all part of what has amazed me - how much of what is taken for granted in the world of RVing is different. And yes, it is a world of which I was completely ignorant and am slowly becoming less so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickandsandi
So if I were you (thank goodness I am not) do your research before attacking our loved Airstreams! Or do what the rest of us do. Change it if you don't like it!
I'm not in anyway suggesting that other brands are better than Airstreams. I am saying that I am amazed that it is considered 'normal' to ship...

...brakes that require 25-50% greater stopping distance.
...batteries that require maintenance every two weeks and which are unpleasant to be around in an accident.
...trailers which can't be fully used (ie with water) without either exceeding the GVWR or replacing the axle.

I love my Airstream...and my family has loved the time we've had it in it...and we're very excited about the trip we're currently planning for the Spring. But it is wrong that I have to 'Change it if I don't like it' in order to start a trip with full water tanks.

enjoy,
leo

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickandsandi
For someone who spends way too much time trying to make numbers make sense because you want them to...
Blame that on my being trained as a scientist then working as an engineer. And finding that an engineer's 'accepted wisdom' is all too often a synonym for 'repeated unexamined error'...;-)
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Old 01-04-2007, 06:02 PM   #23
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I'm a bit torn myself. I mean on one side, that do work better and have a bit less maint, but then OTOH, it's 3500lbs. My boat trailer I've towed for 12 years, had emerg braking, manuvers, etc and the car and truck were both up to stopping the rig safely....and the boat trailer has no brakes (it's a 1964 Glasspar) and it weighs 3000lbs. So in my mind a 3500lb RV that has brakes...........

I guess if I saw you had a heavier RV (6000lbs or more), I'd feel more ready to agree, but if you have the $$$ and really want discs, go for it.

Airstream ships the premium models with discs. Yea, it'd be nice to have them on my 25' Safari, but the drums do work very well, particularly when the tow vehicle has it's brakes properly maintained. What I mean by that is that the trailer brakes alone won't typically stop the rig, but provide a bit more help to the TVs brakes towing the load.
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Old 01-04-2007, 06:52 PM   #24
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convert drum to disc???why not???maybe more money than cents!!!
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Old 01-04-2007, 06:56 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD Dawson
convert drum to disc???why not???maybe more money than cents!!!
I agree, my only question though is it worth it on a 16' RV that weighs 3500lbs and has more that great breaks already for it's size and weight? Would discs really provide that much more for something so light? If they do, great.......I'm just asking the question.
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Old 01-04-2007, 06:57 PM   #26
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here's my opinion; seems as I've read a lot of posts on this forum about folks having not enough TV to deal with their trailer.So if you do not have what it takes to pull it what makes you think you can stop it? get my drift. I'm needing axles for my 32 excella and will be upgrading to discs at that time, and probably 16" rims also.but I've got an older AS and have the money to make safety improvements. Now about the Cub!! I gave my daughter her first small plane ride with me in a Cub. A perfect day, speaking of perfect days hey J.Rick tell me you were a Marine pilot. Semper Fi Tim
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Old 01-04-2007, 06:58 PM   #27
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I'm all for having the right tow vehicle and in your case with a larger coach, I can agree fully with why you'd go disc, but on a 16'? Besides the fact of the size and weight, what about real estate. That brake system has to be installed somewhere...on a 16' space can be kind of tight already......
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Old 01-04-2007, 06:59 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie
I'm a bit torn myself. I mean on one side, that do work better and have a bit less maint, but then OTOH, it's 3500lbs....
As I said in my original post, I recognize that the choice to move to disc brakes is probably not rational. Disc brakes do stop better, fail less often, and require less maintainence. But I wouldn't be doing it if I wasn't having them upgrade my axles at the same time. And the axle upgrade does increases my GVWR up to 4300lbs so better brakes are probably a good idea.
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