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Old 11-27-2017, 11:33 AM   #15
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I wonder how many job offers she has had after getting world wide notice for her non-supported-British free speech statement?
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:35 AM   #16
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Sleeping Beauty is hereby banned!

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Originally Posted by SteveSueMac View Post
How do you come to the conclusion that Hall's recommendation equates to "mindless censorship"? She actually argues that removing the book entirely is not her goal and suggests using it as a platform for discussion with older children as well. That's the opposite of "mindless" or "censorship" to me - it feels like an invitation in a suggestion that there's a discussion worth having about something that isn't examined all that much but is sort of taken for granted. It sounds like an invitation to explore merits and pitfalls just as you suggested DON'T happen in censorship.

Wouldn't examining the issue raise, not lower, our intellect?

Someone much smarter than I once said the unexamined life isn't worth living...

I'm interested in exploring it further.


How can something be examined when it cant be discussed, and who gets to decide what is proper and improper?
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:37 AM   #17
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banned books: " Little Black Sambo" for those of you old enough to remember. Need I say?
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:48 AM   #18
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banned books: " Little Black Sambo" for those of you old enough to remember. Need I say?


And still, why is banning, instead of being unbanned and discussed as a monumental and degrading atrocity seen as the superior position?

How is pretending that events and atrocities never happened not a form of ignorance?
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:54 AM   #19
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Reading the linked article...a parent has asked that the fairy tale be banned because she sees the handsome Prince waking with a kiss the slumbering Beauty as “inappropriate sexual behavior”.

She is unlikely to succeed, nor to garner much support, in my opinion, in her quest to have the book banned.

I shudder to think, were she successful, what rabbit hole she would descend into in order to properly and thoroughly purify her child’s environment.

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Old 11-27-2017, 02:48 PM   #20
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Sleeping Beauty is hereby banned!

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How can something be examined when it cant be discussed, and who gets to decide what is proper and improper?


J. Morgan - she recommended discussing it with children of an older age, not banning the book entirely, just having a reasonable age limit from which to discuss it. Like we have age limits for drinking, driving (never together!), service in the armed forces, etc.

I think you may be reacting more to the headline than the actual substance of what she said.
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Old 11-27-2017, 04:28 PM   #21
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Folks, I think you're getting your knickers in a bunch over nothing. The fact is that the reception of Grimm's fairy tales and others has been a "thing" for a long, long time, including in the 19th century. Nothing new here. Just check Google Scholar for info:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...+century&btnG=


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Old 11-27-2017, 04:41 PM   #22
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J. Morgan - she recommended discussing it with children of an older age, not banning the book entirely, just having a reasonable age limit from which to discuss it. Like we have age limits for drinking, driving (never together!), service in the armed forces, etc.

I think you may be reacting more to the headline than the actual substance of what she said.
No. He nailed it. “Discussions” with children by schools these days amounts to indoctrination. Outside of traditional norms in sex roles. Such is indefensible, at its very core. Not in the least the business of the public schools.

Hasn’t anything to do with literary quality, or a place in the history of English & European literature, either. Which was the point if it’s inclusion in the first place. That which has survived centuries has merit. What constitutes that merit is what upper level high schoolers should be able to debate.

That the younger ones become familiar is enough. Common culture.

The bowdlerizations by Disney would be a better topic. Faithless adaptations. Pure propaganda in the latest.

Those that dislike this are welcome to self-deport. Their new home or old one must be more amenable, after all. And they’re then welcome to ruin that society.

Someone remind us of when a vote was cast by Congress to change the culture from that which was wildly successful. Vote-by-bureaucrats isn’t any part of republican government.

Or, better, ask whom it benefits, as it certainly isn’t children undergoing religious indoctrination. This is the crux of the thing.

This won’t be going on much longer. Our high schools have become day care centers. With expensive sports teams. It can’t be sustained at $15,000-per student with most of some cities not even showing grade-level proficiency. On top of standards so dumbed down as to be meaningless.

Women’s votes? That’s funny. Already on the table. Can’t find benefits, only drawbacks. The experiment has lasted a century. Those who will never be required to go to war (because they cannot) don’t have the interests of the whole at heart. Abstract level thinking isn’t their forte. It’ll be their lives on the line only when the men refuse to go to war. And that’s the end of that society.

Some conclusions are awfully simple. Obvious.

The pendulum will swing back, the ONLY question is at what speed.

.
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Old 11-27-2017, 05:35 PM   #23
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Slow - you know I'm a fan of yours, even if others don't get your style. I appreciate your curmudgeonly but typically sage advice and admire your John Houseman as Paper Chase professor approach where nothing comes easy to those seeking knowledge. But I'll be danged if I understand what you're saying here enough to know whether I should be upset, laugh, or reject it out of hand.

Life is messy and complicated - attempts to reduce it to simple bumper sticker statements fall short and do no justice to the point.

>That which has survived centuries has merit.

Perhaps. But universally? That's an exceedingly broad statement, no? Purchasing and owning human beings stolen from their land and families as property to increase your profits was an idea that survived centuries. Does that idea have merit?

If I created a fable that included a sleeping black slave who rises from a long sleep after being kissed by a white plantation owner and the black slave loves the plantation owner - would that not also be a story intended for indoctrination of young minds to justify slavery or at least to make the slave owner seem more sympathetic?

>Those that dislike this are welcome to self-deport. Their new home or old one must be more amenable, after all. And they’re then welcome to ruin that society.

I see. So agree with me or leave. Now this is no way to build a society. I'm not 100% sure what I think on the topic yet though I do believe it's worth examining. You apparently don't feel that way. I don't think you should leave the country because of that. I see no reason I should not be afforded the same respect, please and thank you.

I'll leave alone the irony of Hall's being British and you and I having the privilege of discussing this concept in the country that was born by people CHOOSING to up and leave her country....

>Women’s votes? That’s funny. Already on the table. Can’t find benefits, only drawbacks. The experiment has lasted a century. Those who will never be required to go to war (because they cannot) don’t have the interests of the whole at heart. Abstract level thinking isn’t their forte. It’ll be their lives on the line only when the men refuse to go to war. And that’s the end of that society.

And here's where I'm especially lost in your speech. Honestly - I don't understand what you're saying. Are you arguing there are no benefits to women voting or are you being ironic to prove a different point?

Are you saying women don't go to war because they can't? Have you never met a female soldier?

Are you suggesting women can't think in the abstract?

Really - what the heck are you saying???


>The pendulum will swing back, the ONLY question is at what speed.

Well there are ebbs and flows to most things. I would be hard pressed to imagine a world in which swinging a pendulum back to slavery is a good thing. It's not like thin ties coming in and out of fashion - there are some principles that simply must break the gravitational pull of a pendulum, never to return to the place from which they came. The male-centric view that women shouldn't vote (done), are subservient and to be enjoyed as play things with or without their consent is another example that needs to escape that pendulum. The recent "reckoning" of sexual predators may be the best thing to happen on that front.

So yes - let's have a discussion. I won't ask you to leave the country if we disagree - but I will disagree with you vehemently if your argument is that just because things are the way they are they must remain the same - especially if you're suggesting a return to days we've thankfully begun to place in the rear view mirror (or backup cam if you prefer to extend the analogy toward progress....).

And last - may I suggest - for all - spending just 3.5 minutes (re-)acquainting ourselves with this gem of wisdom...on this pale blue dot, we're all we have - doesn't hurt to seek opportunities to treat each other with the utmost respect...

https://youtu.be/GO5FwsblpT8
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:09 PM   #24
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Man oh man Tony, see what you've done!!! Once again!
I'm going out to check my air bags

(I see nothing but good coming from these discussions. There is real opportunity right now to begin to make significant changes in our culture.
I hope that we take full advantage. The discussions MUST focus on the behavior and not the context or its all for naught)
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:11 PM   #25
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My point is simple. Censorship steals away the individuals ability to make informed decisions and quashes intellectual growth. It turns conversations from “you are wrong” to “you cant say that”.

In my minds eye, that is a slippery and dangerous slope.
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:30 PM   #26
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Sleeping Beauty is hereby banned!

When it comes down to it, I would guess there are very few among us who have not kissed someone while he or she was sleeping, whether it be a child, spouse, lover or friend. Of course, almost any behavior one can imagine might be appropriate in one setting and inappropriate in another. I would suggest that the setting of a prince coming upon a maiden under a spell in a castle is rather unique, and whether kissing under those circumstances would or would not be appropriate can be relegated to a subset of problems like determining how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:50 PM   #27
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Plus, it puts a new spin an old tale which has been told in many forms:

An old man was walking down by the river, when he heard a faint voice saying “save me!” He looked around, didn't see anyone, and was about to walk on, when he heard the voice again saying “look down and pick me up!” He looked down and saw a frog, which he picked up. The frog said, “kiss me and I will turn into a beautiful princess!” The man put the frog into his pocket and walked home. Later that day, he was walking around the neighborhood and came across one of his friends. He showed the friend the frog and told him the story. The friend asked him, “why don't you kiss the frog? Maybe it will turn into a beautiful princess.” The man replied, “well, at my age, I’d just as soon have a talking frog as a beautiful princess.”

What he probably didn't realize was that he no doubt also saved himself a lot of trouble if he had kissed the princess while she was clearly under duress and incapable of giving informed consent.
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:54 PM   #28
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My point is simple. Censorship steals away the individuals ability to make informed decisions and quashes intellectual growth. It turns conversations from “you are wrong” to “you cant say that”.

In my minds eye, that is a slippery and dangerous slope.


Hi again. I agree with your point re: censorship. FWIW - you CAN say that AND you're wrong in applying it to Hall's point. She's saying something different than you're arguing about.

Shall we continue this in the Argue thread?
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