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Old 07-24-2009, 05:07 PM   #99
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I don't have the time to read all the posts on this thread yet so at the risk of being redundant I'll put in my .02.

I have no problem with the WBCCI on my local level. Right now that's all I need.

If a new club is formed with a vintage component consider opening it to the other similar trailers: Avion, Streamline, Silverstreak, Spartan and the more esoteric SOBs.
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:23 PM   #100
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Come on man, you just can't drop that one here. I need some details! What do I need to do!!!

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They're good, but they're a lot of work to make for a rallyfull of people. Also, to make Ed's secret recipe Door County cherry stuffed French toast, you have to have Door County cherries. . .
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Old 07-25-2009, 05:41 AM   #101
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Come on man, you just can't drop that one here. I need some details! What do I need to do!!!

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I have to tell the truth, I can't cook, but Sandy can! I will wake her up and have her post how this goes. I just put the mess together, she does all the mixing................
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Old 07-25-2009, 06:14 AM   #102
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Ok not the best thing to do.....

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Come on man, you just can't drop that one here. I need some details! What do I need to do!!!

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OK Leo, I woke her up to get this:
You whip up the cream cheese, amount depends on the number of people but plan on 2 tablespoons full/serving
Add fresh Door County WI cherries, about 15 or so/serving
Grill you french toast, bread, egg, milk etc
When toast is grilled add 2 tablespoons of the stuff above and cover with second piece of toast.
Serve with butter (pure WI butter) and maple syrup and lots of cold milk
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Old 07-25-2009, 09:53 AM   #103
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Leo and Ed, You guys are real good at diverting the discussion. Was there seminar at International for how to do that? Was that how you dropped the one VP for another? Talk about something else while doing something other. Kind of surprised to see you doing it Leo. You usually step up toe to toe.

Maybe this thread has run it's course or perhaps Leo and Ed have run it off the tracks, but both of you can enjoy your back door stuffed cherries soon enough. Hope your jaws don't fall too far out of socket when a new train pulls into the station.
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:33 AM   #104
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Frank,

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Leo and Ed, You guys are real good at diverting the discussion. Was there seminar at International for how to do that?
Are you kidding? The WBCCI doesn't know anything about the internet! The powers-that-be of the WBCCI couldn't hijack a thread if it bit 'em on the ankle.

In any case, Leo and Ed are doing you a favor by keeping this thread on the front page. Once it quiets down and sinks to the bottom you won't get any more name suggestions.

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Hope your jaws don't fall too far out of socket when a new train pulls into the station.
We'll be waiting with 'bated breath. Another club is a perennial topic on Airforums, but it hasn't happened yet.

Good luck,
Nuvi
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Old 07-25-2009, 12:33 PM   #105
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It would be necessary to get Airstream's permission to use a name they own. If a group wants to form a club for all aluminum trailer owners, then the use of the Airstream name would be avoided and the word "aluminum" could be used.

An organization needs organizers and the kind of people who organize things like some rules. If their personalities run towards certain toxic personalities such as martinets, petty tyrants and such, you'll have a bad organization. HOA's have a bad reputation because some people who are busybodies seem to gravitate towards running for their boards. Since people who don't like rules, don't like to run for such a board, they don't have any say. This is the dilemma of organizations. But some people appreciate the need for organization and aren't bad leaders—it's important to make sure they are the leaders.

Since running a big or a small organization is a lot of work, retirees tend to be officers and board members. With that comes a certain mindset, often different than those of younger members. This is another dilemma.

Liability is an important consideration. You are responsible when you do something that reasonably results in injury to another—not the legal definition, but close enough for here. Some lawyers abuse this, but in practicing for 30+ years, I have not met many and most lawyers can't stand that type of lawyer.

Many small organizations ally with other ones to obtain insurance at better rates. Rates have gone up and up and $40,000 does not sound unusual to me. Blame the insurance industry for that.

You can organize as a nonprofit corporation or an unincorporated association. Either works for tax exempt status these days, but require some legal and accounting help. Organizational documents are necessary (articles of incorporation or articles of association plus bylaws) to make sure things are done fairly and democratically. To reduce it to one page will leave out a lot of stuff. I have dealt with organizations for decades and most people don't like all the documents and rules, but then when a question comes up, they want to know what the rule is or just how to do it. Starting out you may not need tax exempt status because the organization will spend everything it takes in. There are many types of 501(c) organizations and there are different tax exempt rules for them too.

If people you don't like, or people who's idea of how an organization should be run disagree with your idea of it, get in power, they can bend or subvert the rules anyway. Watch out who you elect!

The Forum does act as a clearinghouse for rallies. How Andy R. deals with that because of the Forum's potential liability is an interesting question, but I hope he has discussed it with some experts. If Mike trips over a table negligently placed in his way by a fellow Forum member at a Forum rally, he may want to take care of it himself, but as explained by others, his insurance company may not want to, depending how much the injury costs. You might not think the table example is a good one, but if it were placed partly on a pathway and is difficult to get around with your hands full of covered dishes, and it's dusk and Mike's eyesight isn't what it used to be, well maybe it's not Mike's fault.

I'm guessing there are some very different reasons people want a new organization. Some are mad at WBCCI, some just don't feel it's their kind of organization, and probably some feel both. But these reasons may be at cross purposes, and founding a new organization with people at cross purposes isn't going to work well.

We haven't joined WBCCI because we don't want our money to go to an organization run like we perceive the WBCCI is run. Thus, an organization we'd be interested in would have to be different and have clear goals and governance. I don't mean "different" in reaction to all things WBCCI, but different in governance and possibly goals or mission. I think such an organization would have to start small, probably regionally. As it grew, maybe some units of the WBCCI would want to join it (I don't have to tell anyone which ones those might be).

But if you want to be part of a new group, prepare to spend more time than you want at it. People dissatisfied with an existing group at some point start talking about forming a new group. Once they find out what they have to do to start it, promote it, get insurance, have a membership effort, etc., they usually stop right there. If some people wish to start a new organization, great, go for it, and be prepared for what it requires to do it right.

As for a name, Aluminitis Inc. Perhaps some heavy drinking is necessary for me to do better.

Gene
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Old 07-25-2009, 12:46 PM   #106
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A few more things:

As stated above, liability waivers are of limited use. Blanket ones ("I'm not responsible even if I strangle you because I don't like your socks") are especially useless, but frequently used because some people are intimidated by them. The best thing to do is be careful what you do, hope for the best, get together with others with like interests, and hope for the best.

I have been sued for something I had nothing to do with, but got dragged into it because I was a board member of a nonprofit. I didn't like it and knew from the beginning someone (and their lawyer, one of those "colleagues" I can't stand) was after insurance money; fortunately I had insurance. Sometimes things don't work out.

Most times nothing happens. I've had fire insurance at every home I've owned, but have yet to have had a fire. Rallies probably have few accidents associated with them. But when the time comes there is a serious, expensive injury, insurance was a good idea.

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Old 07-25-2009, 09:37 PM   #107
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Starting a new club would be lots of paperwork and preparation. You need to incorporate to protect yourself and get the tax status you'll need. Figure on some lawyer and accountant time to get you set up and of course insurance.

A couple of determined folks could do it. If your new club is open to all aluminum trailers it might grow faster and hopefully you will avoid all the things about the WBCCI you don't like. That may be tougher than you think because of human nature.

Here's a few names.

Tin foil tourists.

ATA, Aluminum trailer assoc.

Highway palace assoc.

I'm very happy in the WBCCI but I wish you luck and success
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:01 PM   #108
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Been There Done This, Let me see

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See, and that's where you lose all credibility... Are you trying to insinuate that Ed or I had anything to do with Rob's issue? A past, past, past, and a never been?



Come on man -- get a grip...

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If they only knew what we have been through, and parked on black top is at the bottom of the list.

Now with that said, I'll step up Frank and and give you my input when it came to moving people through the VAC as officers. I said and and will say in public that I had reservations about Rob being able to pull off a VAC International without ever being at one. Also I was concerned about his participation at the national level when it came time for him to be VAC Prez.

Just so we all know where I stood on this issue.


Time to start cooking!
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:25 PM   #109
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All in time

There are many reasons for starting a new club, church, civic organization, etc… Depending on the backing ($$$) the startup process can be easy or difficult. But remember, no amount of money or volunteerism (by a few) is a guarantee it will survive. Only by giving people a reason to join will keep it alive. Just because someone is “unhappy” with the one, does not mean they would join “another” club. That reasoning only works in elections and even then sometimes people decide, just to sit it out for awhile.

What would a new organization offer members that cannot be found either through the current WBCCI and/or Unit, TCT or one of the many other camping, caravanning, RV or vintage trailer clubs already out there?

Plus, what can this organization offer a new member for a given amount of money? Is offering a newsletter(and to what level $$), camping together, eating off the same table to later sit around a campfire and drink a beer together enough to join?

Could there be a new/old club personality out there that would bring people together with a common mind set? I think so. Remember, when the WBCCI became a club, it was after many years of people with a common thread among themselves who were then able to finally weave the fabric of the WBCC. The entity that comes close to that model would be the “Airforums” group at this time. Is that the only way to start a club, “no” look at TCT. Anyone can start a club, but a club of one, is not much of a club. But a club does not need 10,000 to have fun either.

Though a name is important, it needs to be more than just a “cool name”. The name should reflect you and what you are about if possible or a name that brings an image to a persons mind about what they could experience by joining. You could always go for an animals name like the “Lions Club” did, I would not reccomend using the name “Jackasses”, though it would be funny!

A name will come when the time is right and you will know it when it does.


When you can take the pebble from my hand, it is time for you to leave,
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Old 07-25-2009, 11:56 PM   #110
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Rather than repeatedly grousing here about the VP progression, has anyone thought about personally calling or emailing any of the recent VAC officers to see what really happened? I know Scott Scheuermann responded here, but that move was not his doing and he only reluctantly agreed to it. Perhaps if the decision makers were personally contacted, an apology would be extended.

I really don't believe the mishap was any sort of evil plot. Someone or a small group of people make a decision that they thought best at the time. Perhaps they didn't realize they may have been violating "the rules". And recognize that we all seem to hate following rules except when they are not followed and it negatively affects us personally.

I agree that the VP progression shouldn't have changed without Rob being fully involved in the decision and agreeing to it. Certainly it should have been better communicated. Is there reason for Rob to be upset? Absolutely, but everyone else needs to get over it and realize that people make mistakes. One bad experience should not be the reason to go form another club.

And the parking on asphalt for much of the VAC was another poor development, but as already noted, that was not the plan. Letting VAC members with non-vitntage trailers park in the VAC area was only a very small part of the problem. The weather and water and electrical teams did things that compromised the original plan and resulted in many non-VAC members parked in the VAC area and less total spaces on grass. Reason to be upset if you were on pavement - yes, but reason enough to start another club, IMO no.

There have always been compromises at Airstream and club events. If you look at any of the old caravan and rally photos from the 50's & 60's you will sometimes see trailers so close together you could hold hands out the window. And this was with no hookups, dumping your black water into a gopher hole. I assume some folks didn't like that either, but they got over it, because each year attendence increased. Or maybe they all didn't worry about those things back then.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth. Good luck with the new club, but as of right now I am having too much fun within WBCCI to join another club.
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:18 AM   #111
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Africa, no grass, no pavement, nada

No air conditioners, no electricity or water hook ups...

Just think of it 7 months in Africa, and more of the same in the Middle East.

No pavement, parking on dirt, driving in dust...wash board roads, no roads

And everyone listens to how bad it is to rally up in the United States.

Generational gaps, or is that gripes?
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Old 07-26-2009, 01:03 AM   #112
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Been watching this thread... and simply can't turn away. It started on names for a potential new AS members group, slipped into a discussion on legal liabiltity, followed by recipes and then back to what's wrong with WBCCI.

PeeWee- thank-you for the reality check where the 'bar' used to be set.
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