Performance changes using the new diesel

[Stream 1529]

I'm curious to learn if the diesel owners have noticed any changes in performance using the new, ultra low sulfur, diesel.

I've noticed a 6% decrease in my fuel economy over the last several tanks of fuel. I've changed my fuel filtors, and drained my water seperator. My driving patterns haven't changed. I'm not sure if it's the new diesel or something else. I've just turned 30k miles on the Excursion, and was hoping for an increase in my mpg, not the other way around. Oh, I was getting right at 16mpg in town, and now it's under 15mpg.


__________Tom

[2airishuman]

hi tom...

we've had some exchange on this issue recently here...

http://www.airforums.com/forum...ce-27247.html?

i still suggest using stanadyne diesel fuel additive...

Stanadyne Corporation - Home Of High Quality Diesel Fuel System Components

http://www.stanadyne.com/new/ppt/showfile.asp?id=3437

it is reported to improve the lubricity and raise cetane rating...

both can help mpgs...

cheers
2air'

[Stream 1529]

Thanks 2air. I should keep more current in reading the forum posts. I'll check out the stanadyne products.

______Tom

[bake315]

Our daily driver is a diesel Jetta and we haven't noticed an appreciable difference in fuel economy with the ULSD so far. I did notice a subtle difference in the labeling at the pumps - now that it's 15ppm on sulfur it's "recommended" for 2007 and later vehicles. Additives are definitely in order, though.

[JimGolden]

Just curious...what are they doing physically to the engines to change them to "adapt" to this new fuel? I mean, what will be different on a 2008 diesel of a given brand vs. a 2004 model if they are the same displacement? Are they changing the fuel injection? What do they change to combust the low sulphur fuel differently?

[2airishuman]

there are different engine mods from each maker...

lowering sulfur to 15ppm means less sulfur in the exhaust, so less acidic exhaust and less acid rain.

newer diesel emission standards require less nitrogen and particulate emissions...

so the new diesel engines use particulate filters in the exhaust systems...

which will be fouled/killed by higher sulfur content...

just as leaded gas killed catalytic converters...

many of the newer diesels also use piezo electric fuel injection....developed from inject printer technology

small and very precise injections of fuel for more complete combustion at more precise compressions.

this will give better power and less exhaust and quieter powerplants.

the germans are also using 'bluetec' technology to remove nitrogen and evenually they will use urea injection to remove nitrogen from exhaust.

while lead did serve a purpose in gasoline for engines from that era, sulfur services NO purpose in diesel combustion...

but removing it completely reduces the natural lubricants along with the sulfur,

so replacement lubricants are needed and added by the fuel makers...

we hope.

older diesel engines don't have particulate scrubbers or nitrogen removal technology but these engines will still run cleaners with ulsd fuel.

lubrication is the issue and fouled fuel filters during the change over...

expect to see more folks using marvel mystery oil in their diesel and new additives like the stanadyne products...

diesel fuel made from veggie oil esters, has ZERO sulfur and is higher in lubrication...

so too with straight veggie oil...svo.

how svo will work in piezo injection systems isn't well know, as i understand.

in theory if the svo is well filtered and free flowing...it should work.

some vw drivers that have similar injection systems warm up with diesel, cool down with diesel and burn svo in between...

too add more confusion, some trucks were exempted from the change for 2007.

so a 2007 superduty psd (if you can find one) has the 6.0 liter diesel that's been in use the last 4 years and can burn the old fuel...

but the 2008 superduty psd (due out in feb/mar 07) will be the new technology and require ulsd...

ulsd is all that is available in california now and is being phased in, else where...

cheers
2air'

[cosmotini]

Ford also has a product they sell.

"Ford Cetane Booster & Performance Improver"

My last oil change, I asked the service manager if Ford was recommending any additives to ULSD and he told me about this stuff.

So I bought a bottle and try to dump the recommended amount in each fillup.

4 oz per 25 gal.

I think it was $6.95 for the 20 oz bottle. It should be good for 5 25 gallon fillups.

The only ingredient mentioned is kerosene. And that's only listed under First Aid Treatment. Did you know you're NOT supposed to swallow kerosene?

[Over59]

I use the additive the local napa stocked up on. The increase in MPH more than pays for the additive, which I use at double strenght. So I can live with it.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by cosmotini

Ford also has a product they sell.

"Ford Cetane Booster & Performance Improver"

My last oil change, I asked the service manager if Ford was recommending any additives to ULSD and he told me about this stuff.

The only ingredient mentioned is kerosene. And that's only listed under First Aid Treatment. Did you know you're NOT supposed to swallow kerosene?

hi cosmotini...

motorcraft has 3 of these products... mostly kerosene and 2 naptha compounds...

the one you were advised to buy is ok for our 6.0s but actually isn't approved for engines that require the ulsd...

they have had to relable this stuff recently to reflect that...

unless the dealer can move it out quickly...

http://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricant...us174524us.pdf

i tried a couple of bottle this summer too and noticed no change in mileage or performance...

some folks think it may be another widely available additive relabeled and packaged for motorcraft...

power service diesel additive and centane booster (the old formula, not the new stuff for ulsd)

while skeptical of the claims made for these products, i did try stanadyne performance forumula just after buying the truck.

not many dealers...mostly diesel repair shops or commerical truck repair shops carry the stuff...

their website has a 'dealer locator' to find it near you....

http://www.stanadyne.com/new/ppt/ppt_dfa.asp

anyway i used it every 3rd tank for some 2-3000 mile trips. did the mileage calculations; yadda, yadda.

mpg was improved 1-2 mpg when added and declined with each tank full without it....

like over59, i sorted out the costs and as long as diesel fuel is 2.25/gal or more the additive is cost efficient.

i saw no changes with the motorcraft product...

that isn't to suggest no engine protection, but who can measure that?

fuel savings is pretty obvious.

cheers
2air'

[Coastalview]

Originally Posted by Stream 1529

Thanks 2air. I should keep more current in reading the forum posts. I'll check out the stanadyne products.

______Tom

Yep, thanks for the info 2air. We have a few diesels in the driveway. I suspect that if we don't start using some additives, some of these ole' timers are going to die a fast death:

3 Peugeot 505 turbo diesels, all with over 300,000 miles each. (one is running bio)
2 Ford Power strokers with less than 90,000 miles each. 97 models (young ones in the group)
2 Mercedes 300 SDL's that are nearing 300,000 each.

We can't complain about getting our monies worth out these, but do have to complain about the loss in lubercation properties in diesel. With California's $$$ price per gallon, could make this collection museum pieces.

[cosmotini]

2air,

Thanks for the information. I'm having a problem with the "find a dealer" link on the Stanadyne site right now. I'll try again later.

[Saddletramp]

In reading these threads, I note that you have discovered that:
A) ULSD 15 made entirely from petroleum base stock has lower lubricity.
B) Oil companies say they have added lubricity improvers, but you wonder if they really did, therefore you add an additive to be sure.
C) You note biofuel has good lubricity.

What I haven't seen is the explanation that taking petroleum base stock ULSD to 15 ppm is an expensive process. Oil companies have discovered that if they take ppm down to a certain level then blend bio fuel with it takes it down to 15 ppm. They save production cost and restore lubricity. I discovered that one of the country's largest oil company's ULSD is actually a B11 blend, 11% biofuel! You won't need to put lubricity improver in his fuel, because he has in fact already done it, and will continue to do it because it saved him money. Other oil companies must surely be doing this. You need to ask someone in their organization and be certain he knows what he is talking about.

It is in interesting that in Illinois this company only has to label his dispensing pump as ULSD, he is not required to also say it is biofuel.

You also know that that ULSD contains fewer btu's per unit volume. It is perhaps less well known that biofuel can carry more water in suspension. It robs heat from combustion to flash this water to steam. Both of these facts will, in a carefully controlled mpg test, give lower mpg.

A local supplier gave me a free bottle of Stanadyne performance improver
with the assurance that it would boost my mpg. In a carefully controlled road
test with the same load, fuel, speed, wind direction and velocity, and temperature on the flat plains of Nebraska I 80, it made virtually no difference in mpg in my F350 7.3 liter PSD. Most fuel additives contain kerosene. Kerosene added to to ULSD must be special to blend with ULSD. I don't know how you can tell if it is old stuff or new.

I see that you know that ULSD has a higher cloud point and is a solvent that will clean out your tank, lines and fuel filter housing. Aside from an additive that might improve flow/waxing characteristics in cold weather, I personally am going to save my additive money to spend on fuel filters. I carry a spare all the time.

I have seen people swear that cetane improver improves fuel mpg , and they add it to ULSD. It is well proven in engineering circles that cetane improver will give virtually no improvement in mpg. Besides ULSD blended with biofuel will already have a good cetane rating anyway. Ask your fuel supplier if his ULSD is a biofuel blend, and ask him how he can prove it.

Saddletramp

[2airishuman]

hi saddletramp and thanks for the info...

i'm unaware of the mixing of biod with petro d...without labling. interesting.

ford says biod 5% is the max in the 6.0 liter powerstroke. there is only ONE filling station in my metro area (>1million) that stocks biodiesel...

here is the msds on stanadyne performance formula...

http://www.stanadyne.com/new/ppt/showfile.asp?id=3328

the ingredients don't include kerosene, but stoddards solvent (white spirits) is in there, and naptha which isn't quite kerosene...

and a lot of other compounds...

i'm not promoting this product just reporting that i use it...

absolutely your mileage may vary...

cheers
2air'

[Otters]

We just bought a 2007 F-250 with a 6.0L PSD. My wife's cousin turned me onto Diesel Kleen, which is a lubricant and cetane booster. It's compatible with ULSD15 and biodiesel and costs about 70 cents per tank (29gal). With only 2600 miles on the truck and limited use to date of Diesel Kleen, I have no reliable anecdotal data yet on fuel mileage. I have noticed that my mileage depends substantially on how well I control my right foot! However, this thread has encouraged me to consistently use Diesel Kleen to keep my new Ford's injectors clean and the fuel pump lubricated. It's available from Kragen Auto Parts.

[TIMETOGO]

Like most guys i too went for the 2006 PSD for one reason, its long life. Now with the ULSD and all kinds of additives do you think the motor wiil start to run short. And if we use them do you need it at the start. Can starting later make motor problems?. Ending its life far to short. Something for all of us to think over.

[SafeHarbor]

I'm not too worried. Even with the old fuel, I added a mix of Marvel Mystery Oil and Power Service to the fuel for my Dodge. This was to protect the fuel injector pump. I'm still doing this with ULSD, so I have no reason to suspect that my fuel pump is being deprived of necessary lubricity.

TIMETOGO, I do hope that you get the long life from your PSD that you hope for. AFAIK you have the same fuel injector pump that my Dodge has. Keep IT happy, and the rest of your engine should be happy, too.

Lamar

[DFord79]

Like most things that change so do assumptions on how to "adapt" to the changes. All post are intended in good spirit and helpfulness. But, the fact remains if you read your owners manual regarding the new diesels and the new low sulfur fuels they say no additives should be added to the fuel. I have a friend who is the local Chevron distributor. He told me Chevron has additives to the low sulfur fuel that more than compensate for the lack of sulfur. Ford is the only truck (GM,Ford,Dodge) using the new piezo injectors. chevron says "motorists can expect a 2-3% decrease in fuel economy with the new low sulfur fuel". The fact of the matter is fuel changes by the seasons. Winter or colder climate cause engine fuel milage to drop. The fuel blends that have been used in the winter have for many years caused a slight drip in mileage. I kept track of a fleet of trucks for 25 years. The fuel economy dropped about 6% in the winter every winter. GET THIS....regarding dielel and gas blends ie....Cocktails...is the industry slang, there are more than 600 different blends of fuel used in the US. Each reagion, city, weather change,etc. Fuel additives in spite of what some say rarely do much except drain your wallet. I KNOW>..We tried them many times.....only result was we spend more money to get the same MPG. Service is the key.....clean filters, oil etc. Sometimes additives will clean up injectors a bit......if they are clogged. But injectors will not clog if good fuel and good maintenance is used. Water is the biggest enemy of diesel. You can't let diesels set around for months on end and expect them to run well. You can't store diesel fuel for very long without issues. A good friend of mine has a cherry and peach orchard. He cusses his 7.3 ford diesel. It never did run right according to him. Of course HE has a thousand gallon above ground fuel tank and the fuel sets in it all winter. He uses it for his tractors and his 7.3 liter Ford. He has more problems with things than HE admits. He buys fuel in bulk to get a discount. It sometimes sets in the tank for 6 months or more...at temps from below zero to HOT. HE traded his Ford diesel last summer for a chevy. GAS. He brages now that the chevy runs fine...HE buys the gas at a station. NOT from a tank on his farm..NO wonder. Some people just find ways to have problems.

[TIMETOGO]

With the sort lived 2007 ford 6.0L psd (i think may). The new 2008 will be a little bigger, 6.4L Maybe from the loss in power with ULSD the larger motor made up for it. More HP means less steping on the gas = better MPG. I think the only thing we can do is, do the p.m. and drive the truck.

[HowieE]

Saddletramp

Is there a reason you did not name the oil ompany that is Bio Blending there fuel. Others might frequent that company if they knew of it.

[nilesrob]

Originally Posted by Stream 1529

I'm curious to learn if the diesel owners have noticed any changes in performance using the new, ultra low sulfur, diesel.

I've noticed a 6% decrease in my fuel economy over the last several tanks of fuel. I've changed my fuel filtors, and drained my water seperator. My driving patterns haven't changed. I'm not sure if it's the new diesel or something else. I've just turned 30k miles on the Excursion, and was hoping for an increase in my mpg, not the other way around. Oh, I was getting right at 16mpg in town, and now it's under 15mpg.


__________Tom

Tom, we run very similar rigs (X 4x4, 34 w/so). For reference, I just drove down to FL (without towing) and got about 17 mpg on the highway, although around town is probably closer to 15 mpg. On a recent cross country trip towing, I got about 11ish mpg. My X has about 75k mileage. I have not noticed a change with the low sulphur blend.