On the negativity of Internet forums

[Nuvite-F]

This post had its inspiration in an earlier thread, http://www.airforums.com/forums/f161...uts-57481.html . in which some astute Airforums members were contemplating the personality types who self-select themselves to lead voluntary organizations like the much-maligned WBCCI. (I try to be astute myself; the world needs all the stutes it can get.)

It was given further impetus by dueling threads over in the WBCCI section, http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...ion-57443.html and http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...ion-57458.html .

The latter thread began about the same time as the former. As I write this, the “negative opinion” thread has 245 replies and 8197 views; the “positive opinion” thread has 28 posts and 1,323 views. In other words, “negative” is currently beating “positive” by about nine to one in posts and about 7 to one in views. By the time you read this, the lead will be greater, as there haven’t been many posts on the “positive” thread lately while the “negative” thread is still flaming out of control.

Why is this?

It really doesn’t have much to do with the WBCCI. Sure, the WBCCI is Airforums favorite punching bag, but the response when Airstream, Inc. asked for opinions from Airforums members a few months was a real eye-opener. The Airforums community descended on Airstream like a lynch mob. As hard as it is to believe, Airforums members seem to harbor more animosity toward Airstream than they do toward the WBCCI. And this is the Airstream owners’ forum! Amazing. (I would have provided a link to that thread, except that it seems to have been removed. Whether because it was an embarrassment to Airstream, or an embarrassment to Airforums, I don’t know.)

For that matter, it doesn’t have much to do with either Airforums or Airstream, either; it’s a characteristic of many Internet forums. I have participated in a few forums over the years only to eventually realize that practically every thread invariably ended up with the same old people voicing their same old angry opinions. It was time to sign off, delete the forum’s bookmark from my browser, and forgot about it. That’s a nice feature of the virtual world—easy come, easy go.

I was on the verge of deep-sixing Airforums a few months ago for that same reason, when I suddenly realized what this is all about. As always, it comes back to human nature:

Some folks like to complain. Internet forums are their natural playground. I’m sure we all have known chronic complainers from time to time. I suspect that they tend to concentrate on forums, since their complaints can reach a wide audience, and they can receive positive feedback from the other chronic complainers.

Some folks like to argue. Internet forums are the perfect venue for them. I’m not talking here about productive arguments intended to arrive at a conclusion, I’m talking about the endless arguments that go on for argument’s sake. All it takes is two people with differing opinions, and the game is on. And there seem to be a lot of them on every Internet forum!

The key thing is the concentration, and activity level, of these folks on Internet forums. Look on Airforums. Many of the most vociferous complainers and arguers are Rivet Gods with thousands of posts to their names. The effect of this is that a disproportionately large percentage of posts consist of arguing and complaining, which can be off-putting to people that aren’t arguers and complainers.

Nothing wrong with any of this. Airstreamers who want to head out in the boonies to get away from other people are welcome to do that. Airstreamers who enjoy the social benefits of the WBCCI are welcome to participate in the WBCCI. And Airstreamers who want to argue and complain are welcome to congregate on Airforums.

The only downside is that casual onlookers may draw the erroneous conclusion that the arguing and complaining are more about the subjects of discussion than they are about the personalities of the posters.

Cheers,
Nuvi

[Denis4x4]

I believe that this is the electronic extension of the "little league coach" syndrome. In the sixties, my boys played little league and with few exceptions, the coaches were frustrated wannabes that took their frustrations out on the kids. This in turn created parents that knew more than all the coaches combined when it came to soccer, baseball, football, etc.

Now that our kids are grown (and in some cases, our grandchildren are grown too) we take out our frustrations out on posters that we've never met on any one of a number of forums that cater to our interests.

When it comes to the WBCII, I refer to the old Groucho Marx line; "I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member"

[hampstead38]

Where some see negativity, I see something else.

[aftermath]

It took me over 50 years to join this club, and I am happy to be here. Nuvi, it is nice to know that you are paying attention to the sensitivity of others. I have been lurking here for some time now and I find this forum down right hospitable, a real love fest when compared to the one I left. Go to that one, log onto the tow vehicle forum and type in the word "Tundra" and see what happens. It gets real ugly in a hurry.

What you are seeing is another example of how our society has taken a turn for the worse when it comes to our willingness (ability) to enter into civil debate. Talk radio has taught us to pick sides, argue points and never, never give into the other side. The only way to succeed is to tear down the other side. People are getting more and more angry. Couple this with the anonymity provided by the internet and we are quick to take a critical stance when, if in a face to face conversation, we might act otherwise.

And, one last point, I read the WBCII threads and I didn't get the feel that most were flaming on them. Some people simply were stating their thoughts about being a member of such clubs. I read both sides and appreciated both the pros and cons.

aftermath

[kennethowens]

Human behavior has and will always be the same.

Good and kind people are good and kind wherever
they go. And the opposite is true!

Anyone recognize this saying:
"The rich answer harshly, but the Poor with entreaties."

[prudencepb]

That would be the book of proverbs, old testament, the Bible.
Prudence-pb

[byamcaravanner]

Originally Posted by Nuvite-F

The effect of this is that a disproportionately large percentage of posts consist of arguing and complaining, which can be off-putting to people that aren’t arguers and complainers.

Nuvi,

Here in lies the problem (there I go...being "negative"). You use the word "disproportionately" yet I would argue (there I go again) that the quantity of these posts is directly proportionate to the community we have.

Then... there is the whole Negative/Positive terminology. I'll offer this analogy...

- Telling the IBT they are spending too much - Negative?

- Telling an alcoholic he drinks too much - Positive?

It all comes down to your perspective.

It is only when we have to opportunity to hear ALL perspectives that we can make conclusions that will hold up to the scrutiny of ALL.

[bizcamp]

Originally Posted by Nuvite-F

This post had its inspiration in an earlier thread, http://www.airforums.com/forums/f161...uts-57481.html . in which some astute Airforums members were contemplating the personality types who self-select themselves to lead voluntary organizations like the much-maligned WBCCI. (I try to be astute myself; the world needs all the stutes it can get.)

It was given further impetus by dueling threads over in the WBCCI section, http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...ion-57443.html and http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...ion-57458.html .

The latter thread began about the same time as the former. As I write this, the “negative opinion” thread has 245 replies and 8197 views; the “positive opinion” thread has 28 posts and 1,323 views. In other words, “negative” is currently beating “positive” by about nine to one in posts and about 7 to one in views. By the time you read this, the lead will be greater, as there haven’t been many posts on the “positive” thread lately while the “negative” thread is still flaming out of control.

Why is this?

It really doesn’t have much to do with the WBCCI. Sure, the WBCCI is Airforums favorite punching bag, but the response when Airstream, Inc. asked for opinions from Airforums members a few months was a real eye-opener. The Airforums community descended on Airstream like a lynch mob. As hard as it is to believe, Airforums members seem to harbor more animosity toward Airstream than they do toward the WBCCI. And this is the Airstream owners’ forum! Amazing. (I would have provided a link to that thread, except that it seems to have been removed. Whether because it was an embarrassment to Airstream, or an embarrassment to Airforums, I don’t know.)

For that matter, it doesn’t have much to do with either Airforums or Airstream, either; it’s a characteristic of many Internet forums. I have participated in a few forums over the years only to eventually realize that practically every thread invariably ended up with the same old people voicing their same old angry opinions. It was time to sign off, delete the forum’s bookmark from my browser, and forgot about it. That’s a nice feature of the virtual world—easy come, easy go.

I was on the verge of deep-sixing Airforums a few months ago for that same reason, when I suddenly realized what this is all about. As always, it comes back to human nature:

Some folks like to complain. Internet forums are their natural playground. I’m sure we all have known chronic complainers from time to time. I suspect that they tend to concentrate on forums, since their complaints can reach a wide audience, and they can receive positive feedback from the other chronic complainers.

Some folks like to argue. Internet forums are the perfect venue for them. I’m not talking here about productive arguments intended to arrive at a conclusion, I’m talking about the endless arguments that go on for argument’s sake. All it takes is two people with differing opinions, and the game is on. And there seem to be a lot of them on every Internet forum!

The key thing is the concentration, and activity level, of these folks on Internet forums. Look on Airforums. Many of the most vociferous complainers and arguers are Rivet Gods with thousands of posts to their names. The effect of this is that a disproportionately large percentage of posts consist of arguing and complaining, which can be off-putting to people that aren’t arguers and complainers.

Nothing wrong with any of this. Airstreamers who want to head out in the boonies to get away from other people are welcome to do that. Airstreamers who enjoy the social benefits of the WBCCI are welcome to participate in the WBCCI. And Airstreamers who want to argue and complain are welcome to congregate on Airforums.

The only downside is that casual onlookers may draw the erroneous conclusion that the arguing and complaining are more about the subjects of discussion than they are about the personalities of the posters.

Cheers,
Nuvi

Very well thought out, very to the point! Thank you!

A few thoughts come to mind.
It's easier to destroy than to build...Complaining is the refuge of the Insecure... Sound and Fury signifiying nothing...
Those that can, do. Those that can't do, complain...
The complainers think that they can control the conversation and then have no responsibility for the outcome...

Talk the talk or walk the Walk!

If it makes a difference, do it..If not, screw it!


Bizcamp

[thecatsandi]

It is so easy to attack anonomously (sp?). Once you know the person on the other end it gets harder. I like gatherings of forum members. It lets me get to know them and where they come from.

[funkill]

Now I actually feel better. What was the post about again? Oh yeah; some people are negative, like to complain and like to argue. With sincerety, this feels like more of the same ...

But make no mistake: "Rivet Gods" got those rivets by posting TONS of positive, informative assistance to ALL of us! And appreciation for their aid and encouragement has been stated time and again. Being new to airstreams hasn't enabled me to assist many - nor do I post many of my *personal* opinions; my rivets are from asking a lot of questions. Thankfully, I get lot of replies!

Laura

[Boondocker]

Originally Posted by Nuvite-F

......Many of the most vociferous complainers and arguers are Rivet Gods with thousands of posts to their names.......
Nuvi

Rivet Gods? How many posts do I need for that. My meter is stuck on rivet master....

[Ag&Au]

I saw this bumper sticker the other day:

Just say NO to negativity.


It tickled me, after I thought about for a couple seconds.

Ken

[Jezibels]

Dont have an Airstream--------------yet.
Am building a slab next to the garage for just that, so its coming!
Love the forum, and Ive belonged to many.
Love all the great advice Ive been getting, on good prices, floorplans, vintage or new?
For the most part very friendly.
I grew up camping my entire life (all 35 years of it). To me camping was a way to get away from it all. Until I came on here and saw what the "red letters" really meant, I had not known, I thought they were painted on at the factory at birth. A club. That sounds fun for those who want to all meet up, hang out together, Im glad its there for you to do just that. If thats your thing, go do it. If its not, dont join. In my mind, its contradictory to how I define "camping", to get away from it all. So for now, my "club" consists of the 4 of us, my little family, out camping in the wonderful beautiful outdoors that are there for our exploring, and to get away from it all!
Thanks everyone for all your help, she's out there I just know it!

[Andy R]

Nuvite, you make some interesting points and some I agree with. Understanding why people participate in forums is important key here. IMO the number one reason is because there is an audience. People could blog all day long about the issues that face them but if no one reads them or comments then what fun would it be. On forums people find audiences and thus their discussions have impact.

On the fact that forums are negative, some might be. Here on AIR, I'd lean the other way and point to the near 750,000 posts that have been made in the last 8 years. Of which 17,000 (2.25%) are in the WBCCI Forum. Out of those most are not negative, for analysis purposes, lets just say 25% of those are critical. That means that 99.5% of the posts on this forum are not negative towards the WBCCI. If we do the same analysis for critical posts about Airstream, Inc's products we will probably end up with about 1% of posts. That means together, maybe 1.5% of the posts on this forum are critical or "negative" in nature.

It's my opinion, many of the critical posts speak clearly to issues. If they had been addressed, we would probably stop hearing about them. All it takes is communication back letting those who complained know that things are changing. People don't typically complain for no reason, usually there is a reason and listening to them and looking for a solution is the right way to do business IMO. On that note, I have noted this issue and will announce a new system to offer member an expanded system ignore content based on many things like forums, tags, by other members, keywords, etc. That way if any content does not sit well with you, can opt out from viewing it thus improving your experience here. We have done this on other forums with great success, it's like hiding all those other points of view you don't agree with.

If you have time for a read on the subject of online communities and how they are typically controlled by a small percentage of members read this white paper:

A broader investigation into how business can exploit online community underlines the importance of online information in driving purchase decisions, but the most influential information is beyond the direct control of companies selling products and services. Courting the small fraction of Internet users who write online reviews and comments is a very important task for many companies, but one they often neglect.

Many companies downplay the importance of online communities because only a few percent of all Internet users contribute to them heavily. What they don’t understand is that most other Internet users read those reviews and rely on them heavily when making purchase decisions. Taking good care of online communities can be a huge money-saver for companies trying to get more marketing impact from limited budgets.

The full PDF is found here (it's an excellent read)

[bryanl]

When the 'crowd' cannot determine what is good from what is not good, what is reality from what is not; when rules are vague or left to interpretation; when reason and integrity suffer; when standards are not examined and upheld, the results we see should be expected. The examples are present even in this thread with just a few posts so far.

The responses also indicate an agreement with the OP that a problem is noted. The issue is how to deal with it, both at forum level and at the personal level. Again, this thread provides several examples of the different ways of dealing with it: avoidance, tolerance, denial, gaming, ...

I don't see many considering the implications seriously, some of which have been noted. I think that is troublesome and worrisome.

re: "Where some see negativity, I see something else." - moral relativism, perhaps? (also the "Then... there is the whole Negative/Positive terminology. I'll offer this analogy...").

re: "Talk radio has taught us to pick sides, argue points and never, never give into the other side." - let's not get into generalizations, what say? (it's another type of logical fallacy). Choosing a vague villain does not lead towards anything fruitful.

re: "got those rivets by posting TONS of positive, informative assistance to ALL of us!" - a generalization that really doesn't fit with what I see. It tends towards confusing to OP that noted a correlation with a backwards causation (again, a known logical fallacy). it also goes towards the rationalization by association.

Anyone who has a good grasp on their own feelings and ideas and can see with an open mind can tell when anger and bile is present. It takes a bit of work but you can also determine when reason and rationality are left behind or when opinion falls to judgment.

If we want civility in our forums or in our society at large, it will take each and every one of us to come to grips with who we are, an ability to distinguish fact from opinion, an appropriate tolerance for new or different ideas, and an ability to accept things we may not like.

[Nuvite-F]

Originally Posted by Andy R

If you have time for a read on the subject of online communities and how they are typically controlled by a small percentage of members read this white paper:

The full PDF is found here (it's an excellent read)

Andy,

Thanks for the link--very insightful.

I downloaded it to read at length, but at first glance it tends to confirm some of my thoughts, like "80% of the user-generated content on the Web, is created by less than 10% of web users. . ."

Best regards,
Nuvi

[byamcaravanner]

Originally Posted by bryanl

Anyone...with an open mind can tell when anger and bile is present.

Such as in your post?

[kingfisher24]

I am a new member of WBCCI...have been on this forum and lurking for some time longer...I have participated in two wbcci chapter rallies and have been nothing but comfortable and welcomed....great people and great fun..... and I am not naturally a joiner or a fun person...ask anyone in my former life as a corporate executive..... but i am learning

bring or leave your baggage at the door.....the face you bring is what people see....If you are not happy until everyone else is NOT HAPPY then that is what you will get......

wbcci 2541

take all you want....eat all you take

[Andy R]

Originally Posted by Nuvite-F

Thanks for the link--very insightful.

Here are some of my favorite tid bits:

This means the old idea of "influencers" is confirmed and explained. The most frequent contributors are the influencers, and they have a strong influence on purchase decisions because they write most of the online recommendations and reviews.

Web discussion is theatre
These findings mean online community matters enormously to companies, but not in the way that most of them expect. Online discussion is a poor way to communicate with the average customer, because average customers don't participate. But it is a great way to communicate to them, because average customers watch and listen.

Most content and discussion sites should be viewed as performances, in which the site's organizers interact with a relatively small number of users in order to educate, persuade, or entertain everyone else. This means it is critical that companies understand who the MFCs are, and how to take care of them, because they are the companies' fellow actors in the online performance.

Web communities: 10% contributors, 70% voyeurs
The common perception of web communities is that they allow groups of people to share ideas and information, and that they allow companies to communicate directly with their customers. This is factually true, but also misleading. The vast majority of online conversation is driven by a small group of web users -- less than ten percent of them. The rest of the web community sits back and watches the interactions as a mostly-passive audience that only occasionally injects a few comments.

Community experts have been aware of this phenomenon for years, calling it"participation inequality." Jakob Nielsen wrote an influential article on the subject in 2006, describing the "90-9-1 rule" ("90-9-1" Rule for Participation Inequality: Lurkers vs. Contributors in Internet Communities (Jakob Nielsen's Alertbox)). It states:

• "90% of users are lurkers (i.e., read or observe, but don't contribute).
• "9% of users contribute from time to time, but other priorities dominate their time.
• "1% of users participate a lot and account for most contributions: it can seem as if they don't have lives because they often post just minutes after whatever event they're commenting on occurs."

The 90-9-1 phenomenon means that an online community generally doesn't represent the opinions and interests of the average customer; instead, it tends to reflect the views of extreme enthusiasts.

If I ran a company (or club) it would be in my best interest to listen to the most vocally outspoken people and take care of their needs. Let's just say there are a few people who continue to harp on quality control issues. Wouldn't it be smart to take some time, listen to them, try and address the issues (especially on their units) in order to win them over? Same thing goes for some of the people who are passionate about changing a club. If the club listened to them and tried to find solutions to their issues they would not be so outspoken about their desire to change. It's not fair to point the blame on people who are complaining about something unless you have tried everything possible to resolve the situation.

[byamcaravanner]

Originally Posted by Andy R

If I ran a company (or club) it would be in my best interest to listen to the most vocally outspoken people and take care of their needs. Let's just say there are a few people who continue to harp on quality control issues. Wouldn't it be smart to take some time, listen to them, try and address the issues (especially on their units) in order to win them over? Same thing goes for some of the people who are passionate about changing a club. If the club listened to them and tried to find solutions to their issues they would not be so outspoken about their desire to change. It's not fair to point the blame on people who are complaining about something unless you have tried everything possible to resolve the situation.

Right! unless you don't see listening to the outspoken folks as worth your effort... This is why so many folks in a certain club feel alienated by it's leadership and it's "official" forum.