Non-lethal force

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by urnmor

I have enjoyed reading this thread however I have yet to decide what is the best defensive weapon.

There is no "best." The trick is to see the potential for defensive use in whatever you have handy at the time. Even car keys or a belt can be a defensive weapon, with a little imagination and foresight.

[rmkrum]

Just reminds me of the old adage, "There are no dangerous weapons, just dangerous people"


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[PKI]

The bear spray info came through today and ..... wait for it ..... OK, no surprise. The "Counter Attack" is the recommendation. It is available from REI, so we'll see what good old CA allows us to purchase.

Still trying to understand the difference between bear and people sprays. Bears are bigger, which suggests something stronger is needed, but something less strong might have a bigger effect on bears since they have a more sensitive sense of smell. Because people spray does not work on bears, something in bear spray must be stronger. Have not found data that states bear spray will not work on people.

URNMOR - we'll keep trying to find something that meets your requirements.

Tried my flashlight last night. Blinded my eyes. What is the case with the blinking light being more effective? Understand it is intended to attract attention, but was not aware it was also a deterrent.

ISI - the red might make that method a bridge too far.

Has anyone investigated defensive clothing?

Travel safe. Pat

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by PKI

Tried my flashlight last night. Blinded my eyes. What is the case with the blinking light being more effective?

It causes disorientation due to over-stimulation of the optic nerves. The optic nerves are the second-shortest nerve paths to the brain, second only to the olfactory nerves.

Remember back in 1997 when flashing lights in a Pokemon episode triggered photosensitive epilepsy in Japanese schoolchildren? The condition is rare, with only about 5% of all epileptics having the photosensitive version, but the ability of rapid flashing lights to cause disorientation (but not seizures) even in non-epileptics gained a lot of attention after that. Rapid flashes— between 5 and 30 times a second— work best in that regard.

[Rich Jenkins]

Originally Posted by PKI

Still trying to understand the difference between bear and people sprays. Bears are bigger, which suggests something stronger is needed, but something less strong might have a bigger effect on bears since they have a more sensitive sense of smell. Because people spray does not work on bears, something in bear spray must be stronger. Have not found data that states bear spray will not work on people.

Hi Pat - I contacted an Alaskan bush Pilot and guide on another forum for input on Bear Spray. His input was that pepper spray would indeed work on bears, no problem. In fact, he said it was the same stuff.

I did some looking online on different products and found that the pain inducing ingredient (2% oleoresin capsaicin) in both bear and personal sprays were identical. The difference appears to be volume (bear spray in 9 oz, personal sprays in 1 or 2 oz) as well as distance (35' vs. 10-15'). So, it appears to be the same product, just more of it.

Rich

[Isuzusweet]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

It causes disorientation due to over-stimulation of the optic nerves. The optic nerves are the second-shortest nerve paths to the brain, second only to the olfactory nerves.

Remember back in 1997 when flashing lights in a Pokemon episode triggered photosensitive epilepsy in Japanese schoolchildren? The condition is rare, with only about 5% of all epileptics having the photosensitive version, but the ability of rapid flashing lights to cause disorientation (but not seizures) even in non-epileptics gained a lot of attention after that. Rapid flashes— between 5 and 30 times a second— work best in that regard.

Actually my neurologist told me less than 3% of epileptics are photo induced. Mine is exactly 25 Mhz which funny enough is exactly the same wavelength as the condiment aisle at the local grocery store or an aisle with lots of brightly coloured items at a big box store. I have ended up on two occasions in hospital, not knowing how I got there.
Luckily for me photo induced seizures have warning signs that I now don't ignore; because of that, I still have a licence to drive as they don't occur outdoors.

Sorry to thread hijack
Cheers
Tony

[SteveSueMac]

If your trailer is like mine with the aluminum bare interior, the strobe could disorient you as well. I have a high lumen flashlight that I can't even look at on its lowest setting. On high, a "bear" would have to turn his head away or at least raise his "paws" to cover his eyes.


Really appreciate this discussion. Thanks!

[AWCHIEF]

Another source for higher dose OC sprays are cop shops. They have 5% strength in larger sizes. Most will sell to anyone that walks thru the door as long as you do not live certain obvious states.

[AWCHIEF]

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

If your trailer is like mine with the aluminum bare interior, the strobe could disorient you as well. I have a high lumen flashlight that I can't even look at on its lowest setting. On high, a "bear" would have to turn his head away or at least raise his "paws" to cover his eyes.


Really appreciate this discussion. Thanks!

I was just picturing a bear raising his paws to block the light. 😽

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by AWCHIEF

I was just picturing a bear raising his paws to block the light. 😽

😂

We were using "bear" as a code for "perp" weren't we? 😳😀

But yeah - the visual is pretty amusing thankfully!

[PKI]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

It causes disorientation due to over-stimulation of the optic nerves. The optic nerves are the second-shortest nerve paths to the brain, second only to the olfactory nerves.

Remember back in 1997 when flashing lights in a Pokemon episode triggered photosensitive epilepsy in Japanese schoolchildren? The condition is rare, with only about 5% of all epileptics having the photosensitive version, but the ability of rapid flashing lights to cause disorientation (but not seizures) even in non-epileptics gained a lot of attention after that. Rapid flashes— between 5 and 30 times a second— work best in that regard.

And I thought it was just an extra setting to cycle through to get back to the high power. Much thanks for that information. Learning, learning = good! Pat

[PKI]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

Actually my neurologist told me less than 3% of epileptics are photo induced. Mine is exactly 25 Mhz which funny enough is exactly the same wavelength as the condiment aisle at the local grocery store or an aisle with lots of brightly coloured items at a big box store. I have ended up on two occasions in hospital, not knowing how I got there.
Luckily for me photo induced seizures have warning signs that I now don't ignore; because of that, I still have a licence to drive as they don't occur outdoors.

Sorry to thread hijack
Cheers
Tony

Tony - no hi-jack. More info helps. Appreciate the input. Pat

[PKI]

Originally Posted by Llando88

Hi Pat - I contacted an Alaskan bush Pilot and guide on another forum for input on Bear Spray. His input was that pepper spray would indeed work on bears, no problem. In fact, he said it was the same stuff.

I did some looking online on different products and found that the pain inducing ingredient (2% oleoresin capsaicin) in both bear and personal sprays were identical. The difference appears to be volume (bear spray in 9 oz, personal sprays in 1 or 2 oz) as well as distance (35' vs. 10-15'). So, it appears to be the same product, just more of it.

Rich

Well, that is a lot less confusing. Thanks for the clarification. Pat

[McDave]

I'm sure a can of bear spray is as effective a non-lethal deterrent as you can get; however, I'm pretty sure you're not going to walk around a campground or go shopping in a store with a can of bear spray strapped to your belt. Which means it's not going to be there when you need it. So by all means get one if it makes you feel more secure to have it around somewhere; they're not that expensive. But at the same time get yourself a pocket sized tube of pepper spray that can be with you always and is no more inconvenient or noticeable to carry than your car keys. The downside to a tube of pepper spray is that it is a one-shot deal and won't spray as far as a can of bear spray. But what is the likelihood that you will react to a threat 20 feet away? I mean, even if a bear or a pit bull comes into your campsite, are you going to spray it 20' away or are you going to give it the benefit of the doubt until it gets closer? Same with a human; you probably won't identify a human as a threat until it is closer than 20'. It might just be the park manager making his rounds. Only having one shot might be a problem if you are backpacking and think you might run into more than one bear, but in your case, you can stash extras here and there if you want to and reload after you take your first shot.


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[Rich Jenkins]

Originally Posted by PKI

Well, that is a lot less confusing. Thanks for the clarification. Pat

No problem.

Here is another link to an article by Greg Ellifritz on how to choose a pepper spray.

http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...-how-to-use-it

Greg was one of the trainers at the Self-Defense conference I attended in Memphis in March.

Rich

[cwf]

Hijack notice..

Two hunting buddies were approached at their camp site by a game warden. They welcomed him saying how are you tonight warden? The warden replied " I am doing great fellers!"

He then asks.. "I heard a shot earlier tonight. Was that you and was it that Bear?" The friends replied "yessir... We were headed back to camp when the bear charged and we shot in self defense." The warden asked to examine the beast and the hunters agreed. They all agreed it was a great specimin and shot right between the eyes... "Wow, some good shooting!!!.... " hunters replied, "well, thanks! It isn't often a warden compliments a hunter!"

The warden, upon closer examination asks "why are there bullet holes in the Bears paws?"

Boudreaux said, " well, when Hebert threw his light on him, the bear used his paws to cover his eyes!"

Next.....
Sign at Ranger station "Carry Bear spray when hiking or moving about the campgrounds "
Next sign at Ranger station, "Be aware of Bear scat. It indicates the presence of Bear and smells like Bear spray. "

Returning you from this maladjusted sense of "humor".

[cwf]

Oh, BTW.. Rumor is our military personnel are trained to respond even with the pepper spray. So, train yourself and practice to keep the tolerance up for whatever you choose.. Especially in a confined space.

I was thinking inside the RV, Halon dispersal system could prove useful... Just practice holding your breath..

[sparkymark]

Police officers are trained to "stop the threat". Takers are only effective if both probe are not n close contact to the skin, otherwise they have no effect what so ever. Pepper spray for the public is 2%, for peace officers it is 10% (much more effective), however, approx 20% of the population is unaffected by it-also, the mentally ill feel 0 pain so also, in fife time on them. If you do chose to use a firearm, there's no going back...if you do shoot somebody, you will be sued and investigated thoroughly by the local police. Best choice is good situational awareness. Good luck with your choice.


Ford F-350 crew cab 4X4 diesel, 25' Jack Bauer edition AS

[PKI]

CWF - metal container flailed with purpose might be more helpful than holding your breath, but I get your point.

Sparky - it is true that some mental illness results in higher pain tolerance, while other types can result in pain. However, pepper spray does not just induce pain. CA allows 2 oz containers, but I thought the dose was more than 2%. Maybe it's just the bear spray. Have to check that out. Thanks for the heads up.

+++ on paying attention to surroundings and being with good people. Pat

[boondockdad]

I understand you're looking into non-lethal alternatives from an ethical standpoint, but also be aware many states have very convoluted laws governing pen knives, bats, clubs, monkey paws, blackjacks, 'pepper spray', mace, batons, tazers, etc....

Michigan is one of those states where you can get in just about as much trouble for having the wrong percentage OC spray, as you can for having an illegal firearm.

With that said, have you considered rubber bullets? I knew a gentleman who loaded his Governor with a non-lethal load in the first chamber, then hollow point in the rest. His rationale being if a good, hard jolt wasn't enough to deter his attacker then he'd need to finish the job.