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Old 05-14-2009, 06:38 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Denis4x4 View Post
Answer me this: if Chrysler products are so crappy, why is VW rebadging the T&C van and calling it a 2009 Rutan?
The real question is why are three-quarters of those units (the initial ship-in) still sitting on dealers' lots, and not selling?
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:51 PM   #62
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Properly or not, American consumers feel that American cars are not as durable and have a higher cost of ownership.

Prove to me I'll be happier behind the wheel of a GM than a Toyota... and that is precisely what GM will need to do to survive as a private company. Otherwise, the U.S. government will be making cars with a GM label.
There are a couple of aspects of all this that haven't been mentioned, so I'm going to mention them.

One of my old bosses used to have a saying, "An ounce of perception is worth a pound of performance"--and I think that's sad but true. As you point out, each of us has our own anecdotal experience to rely on, but our sample is is small. I may have driven GM products for 50 trouble-free years and love 'em (I have, and I do), but that's not persuasive to you.

But often, public perception--what "everybody knows", is shaped by the media--TV, newspapers, magazines, etc. And much of the media has had a visceral hatred for US auto manufacturers in general, and GM in particular, since Ralph Nader in the early 60's.

To name just one example, remember when (at the behest of the plaitiffs' attorneys) NBC set out to show the fuel tanks on GM pickups were desperately dangerous? They couldn't get a truck to burst into flame in repeated side-impact collisions, so they rigged up a remote controlled pyrotechnic device to initiate the explosion. Pretty nifty objective reporting, huh!

Or, for a personal anecdote, I drove my 1973 Chevy Nova for around 12 years and 125,000 trouble-free miles and then gave it to my step son. He drove it for another 5 years or so, by which time it was pretty badly rusted from the salt they put on the roads around here. He gave it to a friend who put the engine (which at that time had about 180,000 miles on it) in his pickup truck and took it to Florida. I would rate my experience with that car as quite satisfactory. Before I bought it I checked Consumers Reports--which rated it "Not Acceptable". Of course, Ralph Nader was on the board of Consumers Union at the time, so I am sure that anything GM made was going to be Not Acceptable.

Well, the media got their wish--Chrysler and GM are history. The only consolation is that the guys from the newspapers will be in the same unemployment line. When fist fights break out, I'll put my money on the auto workers.

Second point--when I buy a car, I like to have a dealer nearby. One of the reasons I like Chevys is because there's a dealer within a few miles of both my home and my family's cabin in northern Minnesota. So I can get factory parts and service either place. Trouble is, the dealer in northern Minnesota (Ely, MN, the "end of the road") is now history. So that advantage is diminished.

I don't understand the US auto industry's distribution cost structure, but it hurts me to see them closing thousands of dealers. I can't see that helping to sell more cars. As far as I know, dealers are independent businesses, and if a small town dealer is willing to shell out the cash for all the tooling, parts inventory, etc. he has to have to meet the franchise requirements, why not let him stay in business?
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:34 PM   #63
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Prove to me I'll be happier behind the wheel of a GM than a Toyota... and that is precisely what GM will need to do to survive as a private company. Otherwise, the U.S. government will be making cars with a GM label.

As I said in my post earlier, I stand about as much chance of proving or changing your mind as you do mine, so I won't try, but I will say that if you're warm and happy with your Nissan, so be it. I stand behind my observations of both the Nissan offerings and the other Asian offerings, and that is of course my opinion, which I like everyone else here is entitled. I know for a fact that my Burb would outlast and out tow that Titan every day of the week and 2x on Sunday. Let's agree to continue this conversation 10 years from now when I still have my Burb and we'll see how the Nissan and other Asian trucks of the same vintage are doing. Everyone has choices and we've both made ours.
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:54 PM   #64
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Asains can't build trucks?

Here's a Hino which Toyota's truck division.



American highways do not provide an accurate picture of the world's automakers.
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Old 05-15-2009, 06:38 AM   #65
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Answer me this: if Chrysler products are so crappy, why is VW rebadging the T&C van and calling it a 2009 Rutan?
Because Wolfgang Bernhard, a VW exec who was ousted in a power struggle, was COO of Chrysler for a decade before going to VW. He created the deal while at VW, part of their plans to dramatically increase the number of vehicles they sell in the US. It didn't work too well.

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Old 05-15-2009, 07:24 AM   #66
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Here's a Hino which Toyota's truck division.

American highways do not provide an accurate picture of the world's automakers.
I knew Mitsubishi made trucks like this, but not Toyota. The fact that they do make these trucks, I would hope is a sign that they too have some plans to make a real 3/4 ton truck instead of the consumer grade machines they sell in the light truck market.

As for American Highways not providing an accurate picture, I would argue that they can in fact accurately describe a company's offering to the market, and that market being fairly large here in the US.

I'd also note that Isuzu makes heavy trucks and that their partnership with GM created the Duramax. It's that kind of engineering that I am talking about and eluding to here. I realize that in this medium reading in between the lines is difficult, but I think you can catch my drift here.

When I see the engineering in the Asian light trucks start adding things found in the Isuzu/GM partnership and find robust components found in the Hino (if in fact they have installed robust components), yea, I would consider the Asian brands.

Right now take the Titan. It gets 2k towing upgrade with a trans cooler and some playing around with the gearing, which initially was done I believe at the transmission (not the rear end). The rear axle was still 2.94 and then with upgrades gets to a 3.36?! Regardless, they still use 1/2 axles. They still don't have more than 1/2 axle hubs. The same truck is touted as a heavy hauler and a grocery getter with the same 5.6L engine, driveline and suspension. There are no trans upgrades or real upgrades of any kind...you get the standard trans and a few somewhat decorative accessories. True it has a boxed frame which adds rigidity, but that alone is not enough. Looking at Nissan's crew cab on their site, they let you select and compare vehicles. The Nissan site has many inaccuracies comparing it to the GM crew cab 2500hd....take a look for yourself if you don't believe me. The 2500HD has an avail Allison tranny, even on the gasser. The standard 4L80e, that tranny is rated to haul 28,000lbs...far more than the truck is rated to tow. The GM 1/2 4L60e trans--- it's rated to haul about 23,000lbs and these are just the transmissions. The devil is in the details....my facts are pulled right from the GM shop book (Helm). You can't get that kind of trans or these kinds of components in any of the consumer grade Asian trucks. It's all marketing, plain and simple.

Don't misread me, the Asian truck are close to greatness. With just a slight push, they could really give the domestics a serious run for their money and if I were in the market for a 1/2 ton, you would be right on, these Asian trucks are worthy of consideration, however, in my case, I need more than 1/2, which is the basis of my viewpoints. Asia has yet to build a consumer grade 3/4 ton truck. On paper it does, but that's about as far as it goes IMHO.

But hey, you want a Titan or Tundra to pull your 25'+ trailer, it's your dime. Life is all about choices. I'm not here trying to convince anyone...simply stating why I chose my GM truck and why I most likely would not be closed mined enough to not look at domestic auto companies when I need a car. The Volt seems very appealing to me for a daily driver as do many other GM vehicles and even F..F....F..., well you know, the other domestic brand.
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Old 05-15-2009, 10:18 AM   #67
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The failure of American car companies is not the fault of anyone but American car companies. "The media" didn't force GM to sign UAW contracts. "The media" didn't make American consumers buy fewer GM cars. "The media" didn't make GM management make lousy decisions.

And, ST, if you don't know about the Nissan Titan... just say you don't know. The primary mechanical difference between the standard Titan and the "big tow" is the Dana 44 rear differential (which isn't the standard Dana 44) and the 2.94 versus the 3.36 gearing. The transmission are the same. If you swap out the ring and pinion, you have to have the dealer reflash the ECU... not terribly hard. And you can't compare the read end gearing to domestics without looking at the transmission... which on the Titan makes the rear end gearing much "taller" than domestic 1/2-ton trucks.

No one here is saying the Titan is a 3/4 ton truck. It isn't. Apples to apples means comparing the Titan and Tundra to the Ford F-150, the Dodge Ram 1500 and the Chevy Silverado 1500. No Asian company makes a 3/4 truck marketed for consumers in the U.S. They do, however, make a number of very high quality heavier trucks. While Nissan may eventually end the Titan experiment, Toyota is a long-run player in the pickup market. I expect they'll roll out a diesel pickup and a 3/4-ton truck using some of the heavy Hino components.

Aside from comparing parts, QC matters. U.S. car makers have improved... and European cars have fallen off a quality cliff. Asian automakers, however, continue to be at the top of the list for durability, reliability and quality. The best parts don't make much difference if they are slapped together.

As for comparing the Titan and the Surburban... I've owned both. The Suburban died. Only time will tell how the Titan will be running at a quarter million miles... but please don't make statements about "fact" that you cannot possibly prove. You don't know if you or I will be alive in ten years, let alone what vehicle we might be driving. I don't mind a civil discussion about trucks, but I'm too old for "my-truck-is-better-than-your-truck" chest thumping. As long as you are street legal, I don't care if you tow with the Oscar Meyer weiner-mobile. It's a big road... there's room for everyone.
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:45 PM   #68
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No one here is saying the Titan is a 3/4 ton truck. It isn't. Apples to apples means comparing the Titan and Tundra to the Ford F-150, the Dodge Ram 1500 and the Chevy Silverado 1500. No Asian company makes a 3/4 truck marketed for consumers in the U.S.

I don't mind a civil discussion about trucks, but I'm too old for "my-truck-is-better-than-your-truck" chest thumping.
Interesting perspective. Clearly you love your Nissan and understanding that is half way to the road of recovery. If you feel that strongly about it, it's ok to say I'm passionate about my Nissan.

Nissan, Toyota both claim it's a not 3/4 ton truck, but they put tow ratings in the 3/4 ton range. Gotta love marketing. Only marketing could take a Toyota Corrola and sell it as a Lexus or a Caddy Cimmeron from a Chevy Cavalier, both brands with leather seats, power windows and some fancy marketing.

Seems to be getting way too personal and I'll simply stand by my comments, and leave it at that as I'm old enough to know when to walk away and/or take it offline while simply shaking my head while grinning from ear to ear.
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Old 05-15-2009, 01:57 PM   #69
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Nissan, Toyota both claim it's a not 3/4 ton truck, but they put tow ratings in the 3/4 ton range. Gotta love marketing.
Ah! Nothing's more controversial online than debating "what is enough to tow with." Combine that with "are American cars junk?" and you get something like the Reeses' chocolate meets peanut butter combination - an internet forum Supertopic!!!

The thing is, what is a 3/4-ton tow rating? OEMs calculate tow ratings in different ways. It's typically linked to a SAE test of towing uphill in high heat and looking at transmission fluid temps. Some do that at a different speed than others. Some "downrate" some powertrains for marketing - can't have a small-block outtow a big-block, or a gas outdo a diesel, even if one has better cooling than the other. And I know that some OEM engineers, who offer heavy-duty trucks, don't quite understand why more consumers don't stick to their very capable 1/2-ton trucks.

Anyway, it's not like Ford and GM don't have 1/2-ton trucks with tow ratings solidly in the 3/4-ton arena. That isn't uniquely a Nissan/Toyota trait.

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Old 05-15-2009, 02:16 PM   #70
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I don't "love" any inanimate object... not the Airstream, not a pickup truck, not the .243 Winchester my grandfather gave me on my 13th birthday. They are things, not people. In some cases, they are tools to do a job... and some work better than others.

Because I know a bit about trucks, own a Titan and have done my homework, I know the Titan's strengths and weaknesses. Hands down, the 2nd generation Tundra is a better overall truck than the Titan. It's opinion, not affection.

I wouldn't use the Titan to tow at its "rated" capacity. The 26' Overlander weighs 4,100 pounds dry and it tows easily behind the Titan. It is a competent tool to do the job. If I was pulling an 8,000 pound trailer, I'd buy a 3/4 ton truck... even though 8,000 is within the theoretical towing capacity of the Titan.

When it comes to Internet forums, I don't get emotional one way or another. I figure the raison d'etre of the forum is to inform. When you play fast and loose with information on the Titan, my response is simply to point out what I know. For example, most folks might not know that the Titan transmission makes the 3.36 gear ratio a bit misleading. I wouldn't recommend a new Titan today because it might become an orphan vehicle. If a guy had a chance to buy a used Titan at a very nice price, I'd give him my short list of things I have or will upgrade to address performance issues.

Stepping back to a more philosophical point, I think our possessions own us as much as we own them. When I was younger, I sometimes thought having a particular thing would make me happier. These days, I am more interested in giving than having. I'm more interested in accumulating experiences than stuff. I have found the less I have, the more I enjoy life. So, I'm interested in truck that serves its purpose... which is to get us where we are going. When we arrive, I'll leave the keys in it for someone else.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:02 PM   #71
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Toyota worst nightmare........backlash

TOYOTA WORST NIGHTMARE........BACKLASH

Warren mayor wants requirement for all municipal works to 'Buy American'
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Old 05-20-2009, 10:15 PM   #72
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I guess he doesn't realize Chrysler is now a foreign owned company. The profits go to Italy. Just like some profits go to Japan or Germany, Chryslers profits are bound for Italy. So, it's really down to GM and Ford. You can't use "Buy American" to buy Chrysler. Will China buy GM?
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Old 05-21-2009, 09:57 AM   #73
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Profits?

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I guess he doesn't realize Chrysler is now a foreign owned company. The profits go to Italy.
'Course, none of these companies have any profits right now. . . if they did, they wouldn't be on the block. . .
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Old 05-21-2009, 10:12 AM   #74
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chrysler ownership

Actually Chrysler is owned 35 percent by Fiat, and 55% by UAW Chrysler workers. Talk about "you reap what you sew"!!!
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