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05-08-2009, 02:24 PM
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#41
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Rivet Monster
1975 31' Sovereign
1980 31' Excella II
Sprung Leak
, North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hampstead38
It's not "rocket science." It's economics. As David Ricardo elegantly proved, free trade benefits all participants... despite the many myths. (Please read the second link, Bill. It would save me a good bit of writing).
To borrow from Robert Kennedy, in 1850 over half of the U.S. workforce was involved in agriculture. That has dropped to less than two percent today and we produce exponentially more food. Our standard of living is higher today than it ever has been. Like any free market, the American economy is constantly evolving and changing, what Joseph Schumpeter called creative destruction. How many typewriter repairmen do you know?
Jobs churn... and quickly. As I have told my three daughters, it is unlikely you will have the same job for your entire career. You will likely need to retrain, perhaps more than once. The best defense is a good offense... make a commitment to lifelong learning, skill development, etc. Embrace risk. Take chances. Treat a job as a privilege, not an entitlement.
Creating a relatively low-skill job paying $120k a year is a long-term losing bet. If the work is only actually "worth" $40,000, the business model will fail. Any attempt to protect the job through tariffs, taxes or subsidies will cost the economy more (by increasing taxes and distorting markets) than simply letting the job disappear. Chrysler failed and GM is teetering not because of a lack of patriotism... but because they have a flawed business model. America car companies could compete against the best in the world... but not with the weight of union contracts and retiree benefits adding thousands of dollars to the cost of every automobile.
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A great help would be if companies would treat the employees as an assets and not a liability or commodity to be sloughed off in the name of profits. Take a look at some employee owned companies and how they treat their people versus the publicly held answer to the stockholders ones. Publix is one that comes to mind vs say Food Lion?
Aaron
__________________
....so many Airstreams....so little time...
WBCCI #XXXX AIR #2495
Why are we in this basket...and where are we going
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05-08-2009, 02:47 PM
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#42
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Rivet Master
1967 26' Overlander
Owings Mills
, MD
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,125
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David Ricardo did his work as an economist in the early 1800s. It is as valid today as it was then. Outsourcing destroys some jobs; it creates others. The rise of Wal-Mart led to the decline of the local "five-and-dime" store. You can decry this, but millions of American consumers--acting as free individuals--made the choice. The same is true for U.S. car companies. The bottom line is that the Big 3 lost market share because Americans--exercising the fundamental American right to spend their hard-earned money as they see fit--decided a "foreign" car better met their needs.
This is how free markets work. The businesses that satisfy customers succeed. Those that don't, fail... unless they are a monopoly or otherwise protected from competition by the U.S. government. What protectionists do not seem to understand is that propping up uncompetitive industries (like U.S. steel) hurts the overall economy. We don't make televisions in the U.S. anymore... but televisions are more widely available and affordable than any time in history.
Here's the thing, Bill. I would rather live in a country where millions of people get to make their own decisions about their lives... and live with that, than live in a country where one government makes all of the decisions... including what businesses are "too important to fail" and taxes me to prop them up. The America we have is the America we have chosen. So it goes.
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05-12-2009, 10:38 AM
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#43
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Master of Universe
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 12,694
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The British car industry died over a period of time. QC was awful. A lot of people blamed the unions and workers, but why not blame the executives who made bad decisions, or no decisions, about the problems in the industry? The execs run the place, they sign the union contracts, aren't they responsible for anything? The same thing has happened in the US.
Some union workers in the US have made $120,000, and probably some haven't deserved it. They had to work a lot of overtime to get it anyway. How many people want a job, regardless of pay, of putting the same door on the same car 8 or more hours a day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year? There ought to be some premium for such a boring job. What about the execs who make many hundreds of thousands or millions for making bad or no decisions? Would you want to the executive or the assembly line job? I'm sure there are good and bad execs, but the guys at the very top, the ones who make the most money, seem to have been in a time warp for quite a while. Buying bad cars and trucks only supports a bad company.
I think Hampstead is right—new opportunities present themselves when the buggy whip has no market anymore. What the US (and Canada too) need to do is provide support for these opportunities or others will in other countries (for ex., broadband is supported by the gov't in other countries and they are way ahead of us in internet penetration—anyone using this Forum must know how important the internet is to sharing knowledge). All those empty auto factories can be used for producing railroad cars, for example. I believe none or few are made in the US anymore. I would think the workers in Michigan, Indiana, etc., who have made cars, can transer to railroad rolling stock, or windmills, or other new technologies still requiring manufacturing. I hope financing is available and I'm sure GM will be glad to sell the factories.
It's true some countries present tariff barriers to US goods, but those barriers are slowly disappearing. The US does it too, don't forget. If we want to sell US goods to the world, we have to accept they will sell theirs to us. No trade and millions of US jobs will disappear. Trade is not the problem, it's also an opportunity. Dynamic economies change (or die or stay poor) and dislocations are hard for people. When we shifted from an agrarian to an industrial economy there were a lot of farmers who needed to change; conditions in factories were awful until unions and protective legislation was enacted.
Gene
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05-13-2009, 06:19 AM
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#44
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Rivet Master
2006 25' Safari FB SE
Currently Looking...
Durango
, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,112
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"I normally don't speak out on issues this far off-topic (even for an off-topic forum), but the tone of some of the posts here got my dander up. I sensed efforts to make us feel that foreign car makers, or the government, or me, a foreign car buyer now, are to blame for the nation's current ills."
I've been in an auto related industry for 50 years and there's no doubt in my mind that Detroit ceded the business to imports by producing crap in the 1970's through the early 1990's.
What I can't understand is the dogma of some posters that are unable to shop for a car or truck with an open mind. Buick came out with top honors in the latest JD Powers survey. Consumer Reports dropped the automatic "best buy" tag for Toyotas.
When it comes to design, quality and innovation between domestic and imports, the playing field has become level. In the mid seventies, I looked at a new Chrysler that looked like it had been painted with a whisk broom. Ended up with an Olds wagon that served me well. Yet, I'm on my third Chrysler T&C in spite of something that happened 35 years ago.
So, to those of you out there that would rather eat worms then visit a GM, Ford or Chrysler dealership, at least take your blinders off and check out the domestics.
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05-13-2009, 08:52 AM
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#45
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Rivet Master
1955 22' Safari
Currently Looking...
Great Lake State
, .
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Thompson
What's better, NO jobs which pay $120,000.00 per year or 3 jobs which pay $40,000 per year! There is such a thing as pricing yourself completely out of a job. I'm a retired architect and was damned good at what I did, but I never ever even came close to making $120,000 a year and only a few good years did I even make $40,000. Every dollar had to be spent wisely. I tried, but found I couldn't afford to throw good money at vehicles with UAW attitude in every part! Now they can enjoy the same considerations.
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Just remember that the person making $120,000 a year is paying approx.
$50,000 in taxes which along with his employer is paying about $30,000 in social security taxes a year. In China, BMW is paying about $400.00 a month to assy parts, and the worker is paying no social security taxes what so ever. So the next time you cash your social security check you should think about where did that money come from. BUY FROM AN AMERICAN BASE COMPANY.
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05-13-2009, 11:17 AM
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#46
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Rivet Master
Corpus Christi
, Texas
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 936
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Although I do no yet receive a social security check, I am not at all short on the knowledge of where the money comes from. They've been taking it out of my paycheck every month since May 1965! Yep, every month for the past 44 years, a portion has been withheld. Please don't suggest any social security benefits I may get in the future will be paid from money taken out of UAW worker paychecks. That would insult even a stupid persons intelligence.
It would also insult a persons intelligence to suggest they buy a Buick, like my neighbor who had the transmission fall right out on the ground! Or have their beige upholstry turn pink like my Pontiac, or have 3 of 4 shock absorbers break within one month on a brand new Buick. Or have the headlights suddenly turn off while going down a country road doing 70 mph like my GMC Pickup! Or drop a timing chain bending 13 push rods and 9 valves like my Ford F-150.
Or have a front wheel just fall off like my friend did while doing 60 mph on the freeway thru Austin in his Dodge Ram! I've had my Tundra 7 years not had a single thing like that happen to it!
__________________
So Long!
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05-13-2009, 11:56 AM
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#47
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Rivet Master
2007 23' Safari SE
Central
, Connecticut
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis4x4
So, to those of you out there that would rather eat worms then visit a GM, Ford or Chrysler dealership, at least take your blinders off and check out the domestics.
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To be fair, that goes both ways. There are those who think that every Japanese car will rust out immediately, that all that they build are tinny poopboxes, or that they can't build big trucks and SUVs. Or that every foreign-branded car is built in Japan, or that every domestic-branded car is built here with US parts.
But I agree with the sentiment. It's hard to buy a bad full-size pickup truck now, no matter who builds it. Chrysler doesn't have a truly competitive family sedan or small car, but GM (Malibu) and Ford (Fusion) build some very strong family sedans, with reliability comparable (or better, in the case of the Fusion) than the Accord or Camry.
The problem in the end though is that personal experiences are a very strong learning tool. As good as those newer domestic products are, if you've been burned in the past and moved on, it's hard to return. After all, why do it, especially if you had a good experience with your foreign car and the American product is equal-but-not-better?
Tom
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05-13-2009, 01:17 PM
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#48
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Rivet Master
1967 26' Overlander
Owings Mills
, MD
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,125
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My wife's Malibu has been a great car. (She picked it; she drives it.)
I agree with Tom. Overall, the quality of cars have improved. So have our expectations. The paradox is that past experience does not assure future results... but past experience is what we have. Sure, I am biased by having positive experiences with Toyota. I've also looked at trucks like the Tundra component by component. The 2nd generation Tundra is the best half ton truck on the market, but that is just one man's opinion.
Early in my life, I could only afford cheap stuff... including vehicles. The older I have become, the more I feel quality is the best long-term investment. I also feel there is a good to deal be said about the right tool for the job. I don't own a .375 H&H magnum for deer hunting. I don't use a 20-pound sledge for driving nails. Our next house will be half the size and the shop will be at least twice as large. If I needed a three-quarter ton truck, I'd have to buy American... so I would do my homework and make the best pick possible. With a '67 Overlander weighing 4,100 pounds dry... I just don't need a 3/4 ton truck. At the time, I thought the Titan was the best bang for the buck. If I were buying today, it would be a Tundra. Maybe next year, some American truck will top my list. I don't buy vehicles to make a political statement. I just want to get from here to there.
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05-13-2009, 01:31 PM
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#49
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Rivet Master
1994 30' Excella
alexandria
, Kentucky
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutcth
But I agree with the sentiment. It's hard to buy a bad full-size pickup truck now, no matter who builds it. Chrysler doesn't have a truly competitive family sedan or small car, but GM (Malibu) and Ford (Fusion) build some very strong family sedans, with reliability comparable (or better, in the case of the Fusion) than the Accord or Camry.
Tom
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Tom,
I would have to disagree with this sentiment. I like the curb appeal of the current GM, Ford and Chrysler products that are manufactured. Every year I go to the new car show when it comes to town here in Cincinnati to check out the new models. Every year I yawn when I pass the same old Camry or Accord - big deal - they have no curb appeal to me. What the heck is wrong with the Chrysler/Dodge line of cars? I am 40 years old and I think they have a really nice looking product. I look at a 4 door Charger and it is a nice looking car with many engine options to choose from. I see it as a family car that is not so dull as many of the other models out there. I hear the same old crapola all the time about US products not being any good - I have to disagree. It is rather tiresome seeing Chysler always being treated as a red headed step child when they have brought a lot of new and interesting products to market. I see many people driving down the road happily ever day. Maybe reliability is in the eye of the the beholder. Stepping off my soapbox.
Steve
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05-13-2009, 02:00 PM
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#50
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Rivet Master
Southwestern
, Ohio
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Thompson
Although I do no yet receive a social security check, I am not at all short on the knowledge of where the money comes from. They've been taking it out of my paycheck every month since May 1965! Yep, every month for the past 44 years, a portion has been withheld. Please don't suggest any social security benefits I may get in the future will be paid from money taken out of UAW worker paychecks. That would insult even a stupid persons intelligence.
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Uh, Bob, I hate to tell you this, but you've been had. You seem to think that the money that you (and your employer, unless you have been self-employed) paid into Social Security all these years was invested in some kind of account that you can now withdraw from in retirement. That's what the government would like for you to believe.
In reality, Social Security is a Ponzi scheme on a scale that makes Bernie Madoff look like a piker. The money you an I paid in went to pay for your and my parents retirement and any left over went into a cookie jar full of government IOUs called the Social Security trust fund. In today's Wall Street Journal it's reported that the government is predicting the Medicare trust fund will go broke in 2017--just 8 years from now, and 2 years sooner than the last prediction. The Social Security trust fund will run out in 2037, 4 years earlier than the last prediction.
So we had better hope for a robust economy during our retirement--so that our kids can afford the taxes to keep us in the style to which we've become accustomed, as well as pay the interest on the trillions of dollars of debt the government is running up. . .
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05-13-2009, 03:37 PM
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#51
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Rivet Master
1955 22' Safari
Currently Looking...
Great Lake State
, .
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Thompson
Although I do no yet receive a social security check, I am not at all short on the knowledge of where the money comes from. They've been taking it out of my paycheck every month since May 1965! Yep, every month for the past 44 years, a portion has been withheld. Please don't suggest any social security benefits I may get in the future will be paid from money taken out of UAW worker paychecks. That would insult even a stupid persons intelligence.
It would also insult a persons intelligence to suggest they buy a Buick, like my neighbor who had the transmission fall right out on the ground! Or have their beige upholstry turn pink like my Pontiac, or have 3 of 4 shock absorbers break within one month on a brand new Buick. Or have the headlights suddenly turn off while going down a country road doing 70 mph like my GMC Pickup! Or drop a timing chain bending 13 push rods and 9 valves like my Ford F-150.
Or have a front wheel just fall off like my friend did while doing 60 mph on the freeway thru Austin in his Dodge Ram! I've had my Tundra 7 years not had a single thing like that happen to it!
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Maybe you can get somebody in Japan to pay your social security, medicare and medicaid since you drive a Tundra, what little money that you have paid into the fund you will withdraw out in 3 to 4 years.
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05-13-2009, 03:38 PM
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#52
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Rivet Master
1955 22' Safari
Currently Looking...
Great Lake State
, .
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Thompson
Although I do no yet receive a social security check, I am not at all short on the knowledge of where the money comes from. They've been taking it out of my paycheck every month since May 1965! Yep, every month for the past 44 years, a portion has been withheld. Please don't suggest any social security benefits I may get in the future will be paid from money taken out of UAW worker paychecks. That would insult even a stupid persons intelligence.
It would also insult a persons intelligence to suggest they buy a Buick, like my neighbor who had the transmission fall right out on the ground! Or have their beige upholstry turn pink like my Pontiac, or have 3 of 4 shock absorbers break within one month on a brand new Buick. Or have the headlights suddenly turn off while going down a country road doing 70 mph like my GMC Pickup! Or drop a timing chain bending 13 push rods and 9 valves like my Ford F-150.
Or have a front wheel just fall off like my friend did while doing 60 mph on the freeway thru Austin in his Dodge Ram! I've had my Tundra 7 years not had a single thing like that happen to it!
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Maybe you can get somebody in Japan to pay your social security, medicare and medicaid since you drive a Tundra, what little money that you have paid into the fund you will withdraw out in 3 to 4 years.
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05-13-2009, 03:40 PM
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#53
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Rivet Master
1955 22' Safari
Currently Looking...
Great Lake State
, .
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuvite-F
Uh, Bob, I hate to tell you this, but you've been had. You seem to think that the money that you (and your employer, unless you have been self-employed) paid into Social Security all these years was invested in some kind of account that you can now withdraw from in retirement. That's what the government would like for you to believe.
In reality, Social Security is a Ponzi scheme on a scale that makes Bernie Madoff look like a piker. The money you an I paid in went to pay for your and my parents retirement and any left over went into a cookie jar full of government IOUs called the Social Security trust fund. In today's Wall Street Journal it's reported that the government is predicting the Medicare trust fund will go broke in 2017--just 8 years from now, and 2 years sooner than the last prediction. The Social Security trust fund will run out in 2037, 4 years earlier than the last prediction.
So we had better hope for a robust economy during our retirement--so that our kids can afford the taxes to keep us in the style to which we've become accustomed, as well as pay the interest on the trillions of dollars of debt the government is running up. . .
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What a great post..............
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05-13-2009, 03:46 PM
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#54
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2 Rivet Member
1991 34' Limited
1968 22' Safari
Clarksville
, Indiana
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 41
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Wow! I've been a Ford employee for 16 YEARS, and to date have not made $120k per year. I am a SKILLED TRADES worker, meaning I am not a low-skilled assembly line worker, and get paid more per hour, with the ability to work tons of overtime. My point is if you spout figures please know your facts.
The BIG Three auto are not asking for free money, they are LOANS unlike the banks that got us in this situation. The union is not at fault, the execs. have to take the blame for the short sightedness for focusing on TRUCKS and SUVs because profits were so great,(ie) the Excursion $15k profit per truck, Super Duty $9k per truck.
If you know about Harbor(the quality people) they have said it takes about 23 man hours to build a truck, so if the assembly worker is making $28 per hour, that makes the labor for building a truck $644. The total employee cost for our Super Duty trucks
is 7.5% that includes benefits and retiree. That same figure is applicable to Toyota, because their assembly worker makes the same wages the union worker does. Also Toyota has lost $8 Billion the First quarter this year, close to the amount Ford lost.
Andre'
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05-13-2009, 05:42 PM
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#55
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Rivet Master
2007 23' Safari SE
Central
, Connecticut
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crispyboy
Every year I yawn when I pass the same old Camry or Accord - big deal - they have no curb appeal to me.
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That's fair Steve. Quite a few people feel that way. Honestly, I'm still considering buying an Airstream for its styling, even though there are less expensive products that would probably suit my budget and needs better. Then again, I'm 38 and own a minivan (with no kids), so I'm willing to sacrifice style for function.
Quote:
What the heck is wrong with the Chrysler/Dodge line of cars? I am 40 years old and I think they have a really nice looking product. I look at a 4 door Charger and it is a nice looking car with many engine options to choose from.
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Its a nice looking car. Chrysler's good at that. But there are shortcomings. It's hard to see out of, a shortfall of the styling. None of the engines is all that fuel-efficient. The steering is vague. And for such a large car, there isn't that much room inside. That's a lot to give up for looks.
The 300/Charger are probably some of the better current Chrysler products - the problems get worse in the rest of Chrysler's fleet. The Sebring/Avenger are universally panned. Cheap interiors, underdeveloped suspensions, difficult visibility out. A car company NEEDS a competitive mid-sized sedan (the biggest market segment out there) but this ain't it. That shows in its sales. There are similar issues with the Nitro/Liberty SUVs. Chrysler doesn't have a truly fuel-efficient small car offering either.
Part of this is due to Chrysler's development team being starved for money by Daimler. Signs are there that Chrysler can design some very competitive vehicles - the new Ram is a delightful truck. Cerebus is working to bring up their reliability and improve interior quality. And Fiat will probably bring the small and midsized platforms (or maybe Opel) that they really need. But there was a bad patch of products there.
I have a curious thought through this whole thread: I wonder what how tthe thread would read if BillTex got a comfy cruiser Toyota Avalon at the rental counter instead of the Prius?
Tom
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05-13-2009, 06:04 PM
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#56
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Rivet Master
1967 26' Overlander
Owings Mills
, MD
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,125
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If you are under 50, you can pretty much forget Social Security. Whatever is left of the system will be a shadow of what it is now. Of course, it was never intended to be a universal pension system. In 1945, there were over 40 workers per retiree. By 2030, it will be 2 to 1.
As for the myth that the "banks got us into this," that's just not accurate. As noted in The Economist, government shares a good deal of the blame:
"BANKERS, frauds, predatory insurers: there has been a stampede to punish the villains of the global meltdown. Yet one culprit is not only rarely seen as an offender, but is also being cosseted and protected. Governments’ obsession about home ownership has contributed as much to the meltdown as any moustache-twirling financier."
For decades, the U.S. had a fairly stable and successful "20 percent down" housing finance model. Over time, government had this idea that everyone ought to own a house... whether they could afford one or not. This led to excess credit which led to a housing bubble which led to... today.
Oh, and the government has no business playing banker with our tax dollars. If corporations need a loan... they can find it in the private sector.
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05-14-2009, 06:25 AM
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#57
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Rivet Master
1955 22' Safari
Currently Looking...
Great Lake State
, .
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hampstead38
If you are under 50, you can pretty much forget Social Security. Whatever is left of the system will be a shadow of what it is now. Of course, it was never intended to be a universal pension system. In 1945, there were over 40 workers per retiree. By 2030, it will be 2 to 1.
As for the myth that the "banks got us into this," that's just not accurate. As noted in The Economist, government shares a good deal of the blame:
"BANKERS, frauds, predatory insurers: there has been a stampede to punish the villains of the global meltdown. Yet one culprit is not only rarely seen as an offender, but is also being cosseted and protected. Governments’ obsession about home ownership has contributed as much to the meltdown as any moustache-twirling financier."
For decades, the U.S. had a fairly stable and successful "20 percent down" housing finance model. Over time, government had this idea that everyone ought to own a house... whether they could afford one or not. This led to excess credit which led to a housing bubble which led to... today.
Oh, and the government has no business playing banker with our tax dollars. If corporations need a loan... they can find it in the private sector.
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In terms of life expectancy and health, baby boomers at 70 will be like their parents and grandparents were in their 50s.
The projected life expectancy of a baby boomer who is 60 years old is 83.1 For a married couple at 65, there is a greater than 50 percent chance that one spouse will live to be 90 or older.2 Medical research consistently predicts that 75 to 80 percent of baby boomers will be healthy enough to continue working well into their 70s due to better health care and less physically demanding work.3 Of course, boomers will experience the usual problems associated with aging: reduced strength and endurance, slower reflexes, and a decline in sensory functions. But they should be in substantially better physical shape than their parents were at the same age because they likely have taken better care of themselves. For example, research by the Ipsos MORI Social Research Institute (a large U.K. survey research organization) found that people in their 70s today are as active in sports and other outdoor activities as were people in their 50s, 30 years ago.4
What a system, start collecting full S.S. at 65, continue to work until 75 and still collecting my full S.S.........what a deal
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05-14-2009, 07:25 AM
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#58
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Aluminut
2004 25' Safari
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, Illinois
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,477
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I tend to agree with BillTex. If for some reason Chevy were not around (which mind you I really, really, really doubt it would go away), I would buy a F...F...F....., well you know what I mean.
Every vehicle has a purpose. The Asian automakers make cars for getting people from point a to point b. Some surrounded in luxury, some economy. Same holds true for nearly any automaker.
However, few automakers can and do actually build trucks, and when I say trucks, I mean heavy duty light trucks and commercial trucks. GM happens to be a company that does and I am happy to spend my money with them as I find their trucks far superior to that of anything on the road. When GM says it can tow 9000lbs, I believe it. I don't have that comfort level with the Asian builders because I don't see how they magically get these higher tow ratings with "Big Tow Packages" which mostly have artificial items like trans gauge and bang you get 4k more towing capacity. These trucks I find to be 3/4 wolves in 1/2 ton sheep clothing. Nissan was the worst of the lot when it came to this IMHO. GM you get upgraded engines, transmissions, hubs, suspension...real tangible things. I would put my Burb up against any Asian claimed light truck and have no doubt my Burb will outlast and out tow anything it comes up against from an Asian builder in the same class because my Sub I feel is that well built and problem free after 5 years of use, mostly towing and 4x4ing in the winter....it sees very little grocery getting. It's all business class.
Now when it comes to cars, I would agree and had been saying it for nearly a decade, that the domestically owned automakers spent way too much on the trucks and nothing on the cars (more folks buy cars than trucks). Now that the bubble has burst, trucks are now becoming less appealing, particularly when fuel prices go up. This left GM and Ford with few real solutions since they committed themselves to trucks.
What we are in the process of seeing is a transformation that will yield a leaner and meaner domestically owned auto industry. There is a perception to overcome, but eventually it will be overcome. Buick surpassed Lexus in overall quality customer surveys. More and more domestics are getting rave reviews. Once credit thaws a bit more and jobs begin to stop evaporating, you may find that the domestically owned auto industry will be back in a big way. The party for the domestics is over, the hangover starting to wear off and a rebirth I feel is on the horizon.
For every domestic horror story, I can also point to several Asian and German nightmares. So let's not simply say the domestics are junk, they are not. I have had 4 domestics, all have lasted the tests of time and needed only normal to minor maint for cars of their age. I am not easy on my vehicles either, but I do service them myself for the most part.
To put it simply, I retired my 1980 Oldsmobile Delta 88 after 25 years of service (most towing and hard years here in the rust belt). How may 25 year of Hondas, Toyotas, Nissan (or then Datsun) do you see roaming the streets today. You'd be hard pressed to find as many late 80s Asian rides still out there in the streets....but you see tons of POS Caddys, Buicks, Chevys, etc out there. Now just why is that cars labeled as the biggest POS are still roaming the roads today? My 1996 Impala SS is now 13 years old with 110k on the clock. All hard miles and yes, I drive it like I stole it. By the way the Asian buyers speak, that car and my Oldsmobeater should have died the day I got them home.
Again, any of you Asian buyers hold your daily driver cars/trucks for 25 years, come talk with me and we can swap stories. I realize that the faithfully departed who have gone to foreign owned machines are happy and have neg feelings toward domestics. I suppose I have as much chance of converting those folks as they do converting me, but I've said my piece on the subject....you can pry my GM out of my cold dead hands.
Don't even get me started on Social Security.....it is scheduled to run out of money far before I get even close to that day I can retire, but like most, I try not to rely on any government for my retirement.
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05-14-2009, 08:25 AM
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#59
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Rivet Master
1967 26' Overlander
Owings Mills
, MD
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,125
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My old '73 Celica is still running around the streets of my home town. I put a quarter million miles on a Toyota pickup. My wife loved her Surburban; I hated it. After 12 years, it was falling apart. Her little Malibu, on the other hand, has been a great car. Rarely does any one person own enough cars to make a statistically valid assessment.
I have only driven my Titan for five years, so I'm still in getting acquainted stage. Overall, however, I'd say it has been a very competent half-ton truck. To dismiss the towing package as mirrors and a transmission gauge is simply inaccurate. All Titans have integrated transmission and oil coolers. They have an excellent (though thirsty) 5.6l V8s and outstanding transmissions. The rear differential gearing is different for the towing package... and the difference is 2k not 4k in towing capacity. The frame is solid. The suspension is good except for rear weak spring shackles. The two weak points are the front brake rotors and the Dana 44 rear. The newer Titans and the Tundra address these issues. The Tundra rotors are what you would find on most 3/4 ton trucks as is the rear differential.
I'm what they used to call a "shadetree mechanic." I have turned wrenches on trucks since the mid 70s and have done a vintage frame up restoration. Every truck has strengths and weaknesses. While I am not happy that computerization has made it impossible for me to work on some aspects of modern trucks, I think half ton trucks have never been better. I also think this notion that only America knows trucks doesn't hold any water, particularly if you spend any time outside the U.S. If you think Hino can't build a truck, do a little reading on the Paris to Dakar.
U.S. auto makers have fallen on hard times for a number of reasons. The union contracts are onerous. Retiree benefits are unsustainable. Designs have often been derivative and/or stale. Management has focused on short term profits and stock prices. Manufacturers relied on the profits from financing vehicles rather than selling them. Properly or not, American consumers feel that American cars are not as durable and have a higher cost of ownership. In the long, customers--not government--decide what businesses succeed and what businesses fail. Like it or not, most American are not willing to pay a premium for an "American" car when they feel they can get a better car from some other company. I don't have any particular bias. If Ford suddenly made a 1/2 ton truck that was demonstrably better than the Tundra, great. I would need more, however, than an appeal to my patriotism or anecdotal evidence from a few happy Ford owners. And I think many Americans feel the same way. Prove to me I'll be happier behind the wheel of a GM than a Toyota... and that is precisely what GM will need to do to survive as a private company. Otherwise, the U.S. government will be making cars with a GM label.
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05-14-2009, 06:24 PM
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#60
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Rivet Master
2006 25' Safari FB SE
Currently Looking...
Durango
, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,112
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"Prove to me I'll be happier behind the wheel of a GM than a Toyota... and that is precisely what GM will need to do to survive as a private company"
Nobody has to prove anything to you....you have to be open minded enough to look at all the options. I too have been a shade tree mechanic and hot rodder all my life. I had a Plymouth Arrow PU that was nothing more than a rebadged Mitsubishi(sp?). The carburetor crapped out, went to Pep Boys for a rebuild kit and the counterman laughed at me. Seems it was a $300 sealed unit in 1977 from the dealer.
Answer me this: if Chrysler products are so crappy, why is VW rebadging the T&C van and calling it a 2009 Rutan?
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