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Old 09-03-2005, 10:25 AM   #57
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Back to the topic of this thread ... ;-)

This is like getting into an accident. What you do after the event will be determined by what you did before the event; by how you prepared and planned for contingencies.

There were two disasters in this case. One was the hurricane Sunday and the other was the flood that started Tuesday. A third underlying disaster was New Orleans criminal problem which surfaced Monday.

One of the issues was evacuation. The mayor had to be pushed to declare a mandantory evacuation on Saturday. But even that wasn't carried out well as evidenced by the parking lot full of school busses in recent pictures. Another problem is that of finding destinations for so many people.

Emergency infrastructure in terms of communications, transportation, and such things is another preparation issue. Some of this is federal but a most is at community and state levels.

There is the personal aspect. Emergency preparedness guidelines are pushed at the local level and it is up to each citizen to be properly prepared.

On the list at the start of this thread, they appear mostly to be focused on recovery. Have you noticed that several similar things have indeed been done? Two I can think of involve gasoline.

The scope of the problem is also an interesting one. How can you move 100,000 people 1,000 miles while providing medical attention for as many as 20% of them to safe quarters and do this overnight with no chance to rehearse?

Some things the government can and should do, but there is also a lot that each individual should do. We all have to help each other by first making sure we have done as much as we can to keep ourselves fit to assist our neighbors.
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Old 09-03-2005, 03:30 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikagurl
The Mayor of a city gets paid $12K a year and about the most important thing he does is ride the Thanksgiving Day float through town on Turkey Day.
Its a meaningless office.
Its obvious reading this transcript he's in a panic and trying to shuffle "blame".
If indeed the office is meaningless, what "blame" could he possibly have to shuffle?


The images I (and the rest of the world) am seeing show a population that lives below the poverty level - predominately black and poor. While there are notes of "they were warned" and "they should have left" in this post, it would seem to me that these people simply could not get out. Without a disposable income and a means of transport, do you just start hiking out of the city? Where do you stay?

9/11 certainly was not predictable and I don't think the two events are comparable anyway. I imagined, however, that our government had been spending some of the homeland security budget on planning what to do in the event of a disaster in a city and might apply some of that thought here. Instead we seem to be caught not having any idea what to do first.

I think my post so far should be filed under grousing rather than solutions. The solution seems simple though: these people need help. The federal government, our elected officials and our tax dollars, must provide it. These displaced people will need housing, food, schools, medical care... and then rebuilding.

Carlos
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Old 09-03-2005, 07:23 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
There is the personal aspect. Emergency preparedness guidelines are pushed at the local level and it is up to each citizen to be properly prepared.

And therein lies the great key to a successful life in this universe.
It has been mentioned several times by other wise members here...
Personal Responsibility
Be prepared...own it.
Ive seen now where some are actually trying to turn this whole fubar
into a racial issue...which is the most disgusting and incredulous thing Ive ever heard.
There are very very few true victims in this world.
The moment you stop thinking like one is the very moment you stop being one.
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Old 09-04-2005, 07:11 PM   #60
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I am posting this here so that people that seem to need a voice of reason can perhaps find one. It is also posted in a couple of other threads. If you are offended by the duplication, my apologies.

Now, I have some comments for everyone....

The Mayor of New Orleans, the Governor of Lousiana are BOTH more at fault than The President or Congress.

Fact #1- People were ordered by the Mayor to evacuate.
Fact #2- Some did, some didn't.
Fact #3-NOTHING was done before the disaster by the Mayor or Governor to mobilize infrastructure of public transportation, school busses, etc to get those people being evacuated right now, after the disaster, to move it.
Fact #4- Some of those IDIOTS in New Orleans STILL don't want to leave and are attempting to refuse orders to evacuate even though they are living in a LAKE of disease and sewage etc. This only proves that the people of New Orleans actually did elect one of their own as Mayor.
Fact #5- We are dealing with TWO disasters. The first is the hurricane, which barely MISSED New Orleans. The SECOND disaster is the failure of the LEVY system in N.O. The second disaster is worse than the first because water flows to the lowest point, which is in this case New Orleans. The Asian tsunami washed ashore destroying life as those people knew it, and then washed back into the ocean. This New Orleans "tsunami" isn't going anyplace without a repaired levy, electricity, pumping, and lots of cleanup work.
(Notice that Mississippi and Alabama, although bruised and battered by Katrina, are NOT the subject of 24/7 coverage by CNN and FoxNews as is New Orleans?)
Fact #6- The City of New Orleans, The State Legislature of Louisiana, The CONGRESS and the Executive Branch of the Federal Government, has failed to fund adequate money necessary to build the necessary levy infrastructure and protection necessary for power and pumping stations in New Orleans for DECADES. This is a disaster that has been planned for decades by default....we let it happen for want of doing nothing.
This includes BOTH Democrat and Republican majorities in Congress, and BOTH Democratic and Republican Presidential Administrations.

BOTTOM LINE:
There is enough BLAME to go around. Cussing those holding office right now does no real good.
We are where we are because WE THE PEOPLE let it happen, and now WE THE PEOPLE will pay to pick up the pieces, and hopefully WE THE PEOPLE will LEARN something from the mistakes of the past and we will MOVE ON.

I happen to know the President personally. I have looked him in the eye, and have found him to be a straight shooter. He will make corrections in policy and reccommendatoins to Congress that are necessary to make sure the mistakes revealed in this disaster do NOT happen again.
The President is anything but an idiot.
Although some people's politics may differ from his, he is still YOUR PRESIDENT. We should act respectfully.

Lastly, what the country is dealing with in this is nothing short of several nuclear explosions in terms of amount of destruction across the Gulf States.
What those people that would wish the United States ill should know is this:
Right now we are a little occupied with healing our own land after an unprecidented natural disaster.
We are more than a little sore and irritated about a number of things resulting from this disaster, and our anger and angst is on display in front of the world stage for all the world to see.
But make no mistake, WE are AMERICANS. We will put it back together.
We welcome the help of those who would be willing and able to help us in a time of grief and humanitarian need.
However, if you wish the United States harm and act on that desire, then you should know that we will pull ourselves together despite our grief and differences, and we WILL settle the score.

---now, back to your regular programming---
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Old 09-04-2005, 07:18 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dscluchfc
I am posting this here so that people that seem to need a voice of reason can perhaps find one. It is also posted in a couple of other threads. If you are offended by the duplication, my apologies.

Now, I have some comments for everyone....

The Mayor of New Orleans, the Governor of Lousiana are BOTH more at fault than The President or Congress.

Fact #1- People were ordered by the Mayor to evacuate.
Fact #2- Some did, some didn't.
Fact #3-NOTHING was done before the disaster by the Mayor or Governor to mobilize infrastructure of public transportation, school busses, etc to get those people being evacuated right now, after the disaster, to move it.
Fact #4- Some of those IDIOTS in New Orleans STILL don't want to leave and are attempting to refuse orders to evacuate even though they are living in a LAKE of disease and sewage etc. This only proves that the people of New Orleans actually did elect one of their own as Mayor.
Fact #5- We are dealing with TWO disasters. The first is the hurricane, which barely MISSED New Orleans. The SECOND disaster is the failure of the LEVY system in N.O. The second disaster is worse than the first because water flows to the lowest point, which is in this case New Orleans. The Asian tsunami washed ashore destroying life as those people knew it, and then washed back into the ocean. This New Orleans "tsunami" isn't going anyplace without a repaired levy, electricity, pumping, and lots of cleanup work.
(Notice that Mississippi and Alabama, although bruised and battered by Katrina, are NOT the subject of 24/7 coverage by CNN and FoxNews as is New Orleans?)
Fact #6- The City of New Orleans, The State Legislature of Louisiana, The CONGRESS and the Executive Branch of the Federal Government, has failed to fund adequate money necessary to build the necessary levy infrastructure and protection necessary for power and pumping stations in New Orleans for DECADES. This is a disaster that has been planned for decades by default....we let it happen for want of doing nothing.
This includes BOTH Democrat and Republican majorities in Congress, and BOTH Democratic and Republican Presidential Administrations.

BOTTOM LINE:
There is enough BLAME to go around. Cussing those holding office right now does no real good.
We are where we are because WE THE PEOPLE let it happen, and now WE THE PEOPLE will pay to pick up the pieces, and hopefully WE THE PEOPLE will LEARN something from the mistakes of the past and we will MOVE ON.

I happen to know the President personally. I have looked him in the eye, and have found him to be a straight shooter. He will make corrections in policy and reccommendatoins to Congress that are necessary to make sure the mistakes revealed in this disaster do NOT happen again.
The President is anything but an idiot.
Although some people's politics may differ from his, he is still YOUR PRESIDENT. We should act respectfully.

Lastly, what the country is dealing with in this is nothing short of several nuclear explosions in terms of amount of destruction across the Gulf States.
What those people that would wish the United States ill should know is this:
Right now we are a little occupied with healing our own land after an unprecidented natural disaster.
We are more than a little sore and irritated about a number of things resulting from this disaster, and our anger and angst is on display in front of the world stage for all the world to see.
But make no mistake, WE are AMERICANS. We will put it back together.
We welcome the help of those who would be willing and able to help us in a time of grief and humanitarian need.
However, if you wish the United States harm and act on that desire, then you should know that we will pull ourselves together despite our grief and differences, and we WILL settle the score.

---now, back to your regular programming---
Wow. (applause)
(speechless)
I think I need a kleenex.
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Old 09-04-2005, 08:15 PM   #62
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Right now, I don't think any of the ideas put forth can really help the situation. There are reasons for most of the EPA and OSHA regulations, we shouldn't just change them without some rational discussion and forthought. Maybe they need to be changed, but a kneejerk reaction may do more harm than good.

When the oil industry in the Gulf region gets back to semi-normal, the energy crisis will sort itself out. Fuel is transported across the country mainly by pipeline, and fuel in the West cannot just be instantly rerouted to the East. The pipelines are intact, fuel is flowing through them right now.We have laws to take care of price gouging, enforce them vigorously and that will not happen again. I read somewhere that Marathon Oil told the stations they supply that they cannot go over $2.99 a gallon and thats where it seems to have settled in at in my area. This kind of corporate responsibility will go a long way to helping the country.

Taking the taxes off fuel won't solve anything, they pay for something we want, something we don't want to do without, and someone has to pay the bill. Again this is a relatively short term problem, lets not do anything rash that will make it a longer term problem.

No city in America could withstand the beating New Orleans took. No area of the country could withstand the beating the Gulf coast took. This was a disaster of biblical proportions. Most of the people who did not leave New Orleans could not leave. They didn't have the means or the money to go anywhere else. Most anyone who could get out, got out. Most of us on this board has some financial means, we have to to be able to own an Airstream. Most of us would have gotten out when the Mayor said go. Some guy educated in the Louisiana Public schools, making half what many of us paid for our rigs, would not be able to just drop everything, fill up his very dependable raggedy car and drive to a motel in Memphis. This is reality, plain and simple. The same thing would happen in New York, Detroit, Chicago or LA. And when government breaks down, as it would anywhere else after this kind of disaster, lawlessness and anarchy take over.

Right now, finger pointing should stop, and President Bush should order the military to fix the security situation. He should order Corp of Engineers to fix the levies and drain the town. I think he has already done both of these things, and they are up to the challenge. I'm no fan of GW, but he can and will lead. I watched him after 9:11, the guy can do it. After that, the cleanup can take place and then the rebuilding. After the people are fed and sheltered, all over the Gulf region, then maybe we can point fingers.

This is the greatest country on Earth, and we will take care of this just like we have taken care of everything else we've had to.
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Old 09-04-2005, 10:40 PM   #63
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Just thought I would post the link again of the Vancouver Urban Search and Rescue team.
http://www.vancouver.ca/usar/
They are doing a great job.
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Old 09-05-2005, 09:21 AM   #64
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The sad thing is everybody knew this was going to happen, but nobody wanted to pay to take the measures necessary to prevent disaster. It is only now, after the disaster has punched everybody in the face, that the city of New Orleans will now have enough money to make it right. Somebody said here that the President will ensure this will not happen again...everybody knew it would happen in the first place!!!...except now, money is coming in hand over fist.

Someday, there'll be one hell of an earthquake at San Andreas and it'll be a catastrophe and everybody will then shell out the bucks to fix it. There's an island off the coast of Africa with a fault along it's entire mountain range. One day when that falls off, it is predicted to send a tsunami of unfathomable proportions that will wipe out New York City and a massive portion of our eastern seaboard...but it's not really bothering anybody right now, so we'll just let it keep on sliding.

The fact is, nobody wants to pay to prevent problems in this country. We only want to pay to get them out of our faces AFTER it happens.

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Old 09-05-2005, 09:40 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDS
Most of the people who did not leave New Orleans could not leave. They didn't have the means or the money to go anywhere else. Most anyone who could get out, got out.
Most of this post I agreed with except this part...
When my life and the lives of my family depend on it...money or not
you better damn well believe I'll find a way.
A lot of people just flat refused to go. Others stayed behind to exploit the situation...ie. looters, snipers, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HDS
I'm no fan of GW, but he can and will lead. I watched him after 9:11, the guy can do it.
Amazing and profound point here which Ive tried to make. We as a people seem to have latched onto this useless idea of "likeability".
A survey of the great leaders of history (lets exclude W here because Im not labeling him as one) will show that invariably they were not well liked at times
by those under their command. But after all was said and done, their leadership abilities became evident and they were highly respected and loved nevertheless.
Ask any DI and the recruits under him. A DI is a green recruits worst nightmare come true UNTIL AFTER bootcamp...then the recruits realise what they've been pushed to accomplish...it develops a bond that lasts a lifetime.

Im always really suspicious of a guy that EVERYONE likes...it usually means he doesnt have any real convictions and just tells people what they want to hear.
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Old 09-05-2005, 10:07 AM   #66
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Poverty

New Orleans has a poverty rate of 23%

Poverty is defined for 2005 as an income of $9570 for an individual. To figure rates for a family, add $3260 for each additional family member.

Mississippi is the poorest state in the country, Louisiana is second based on poverty rate.

More information is available in this article: http://www.americanprogress.org/atf/...INAVICTIMS.PDF
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Old 09-05-2005, 10:17 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcferguson
New Orleans has a poverty rate of 23%

Poverty is defined for 2005 as an income of $9570 for an individual. To figure rates for a family, add $3260 for each additional family member.

Mississippi is the poorest state in the country, Louisiana is second based on poverty rate.

More information is available in this article: http://www.americanprogress.org/atf/...INAVICTIMS.PDF
I wouldnt dispute these figures for a second.
But my BIG question would be WHY?
Now, more than anytime in history there is an unprecedented level of opportunity.
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Old 09-05-2005, 10:26 AM   #68
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Does this count.......?
I cannot think of a bigger waste of MY MONEY than YET ANOTHER
"commission" of politians sitting around trying to figure out whose
forehead to drive the nail into.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050905...n_050905134442


Personally, given the magnitude of this catastrophic disaster...it has been likened by someone in this thread previously (and I think accurately) as several nuclear blasts...
that under one week to rescue, evacute, feed, clothe, relocate over a half million people is not too shabby.
Add in medical treatment, restabilize and secure the city, etc. also...
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Old 09-05-2005, 11:54 AM   #69
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The Culture of Blame...
The Culture of Blame---on assigning blame for Hurricane Katrina:
"Let me make this clear: Everything which has happened as the
result of Hurricane Katrina is my fault. Mine. Alone. No one
else's. Stop wasting energy pointing fingers and put your hands to
work helping out. It was me. Got it? I was a United States Senator
from Louisiana in 2001 when the levee at Lake Pontchartrain was
declared unsafe and I didn't have enough clout with my Senatorial
brethren to get sufficient money appropriated to fix it. It was my
fault. Oh. I almost forgot. I was the Commander-in-Chief of all
United States Armed Forces in the 1960s which includes the Corps
of Engineers. The cost-benefit analysis? My fault. It is my fault
that, as the Governor of Louisiana, I didn't foresee the need to
have enough Louisiana National Guard troops---the vast majority
of whom are NOT currently in Iraq, or Afghanistan or, for that
matter, Indiana---pre-positioned and ready to preserve order. I,
frankly, forgot that there is a portion of the population which
will steal anything from anyone given any opportunity and then
will blame it on me because I didn't---in spite of ample warnings
by sociologists from large Eastern Universities---foresee the
need to have 27" flat-screen television sets available to every
family in the New Orleans city limits as soon as the electricity
went out. That one WAS my bad. It is my fault that, as Mayor of
New Orleans, I was boogying down Bourbon Street the night before
the hurricane hit rather than being where I should have been---on
the roof of the Superdome pounding in extra nails to hold the roof
on. As the architect of the Superdome, it was my fault for claiming
that the Dome could survive 200 mile-per-hour winds. It couldn't
even handle a relatively gentle 160 mile-per-hour zephyr. Strap
me to my drafting table and set me adrift. Global warming? My
fault. Despite the fact that nearly every serious climatologist
in America has stated over and over again that there is no clear
evidence tying human-generated greenhouse gasses to global warming,
and even if there were, there is no evidence tying global warming
to hurricanes in the Atlantic basin, I was opposed to the Kyoto
treaty and so it is my fault. It is also my fault that during
the administration of Bill Clinton the U.S. Senate rejected the
terms of the Kyoto protocols by a vote of 95-0. That would be
zero, zilch, nada, nil, bupkis. As the Grand Poohbah in Charge
of all TV Coverage, it is my fault that there is constant video
of looters and almost none of humanitarian activities. I am the
person who issued the statement: 'No more rescue footage UNLESS
the person rescued complains about how long they had to wait or,
if he shoots at the rescuers.' And, finally, as Chairman of the
National Association of Gasoline Producers it is my fault that I
had the bad judgment to put so much of my drilling, refining and
transportation assets in a hurricane-prone area like the Caribbean
basin. What...was...I...thinking? If I could re-do that whole
thing, I would have put all that equipment in Lake Erie and Lake
Michigan. There may not be any oil there, but hurricanes are very
rare. So. There you have it. Everything that has happened is my
fault. Now. Shut up and help."---Rich Galen
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Old 09-05-2005, 12:45 PM   #70
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oddly enough, i was up late last night and saw a rerun of dateline on nbc. it was about hurricane andrew.

it showed the same destruction, the same looting, the same finger pointing, the national guard showing up after 4 days, folks saying "what took you so long".

what i did not see was the national media beating up on then president clinton.

wonder why?

must be beause it really IS bush's fault! carl rove caused it all to distract us from the cindy show in crawford.

john
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