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Old 09-02-2005, 09:56 AM   #43
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I am thinking about the past years of this coastal region and decisions made by leaders and investors that led in good part to the disaster some of us are living and others of us are observing today. I know that after our Flood of '93, flood plains were much more strictly declared no-build zones. This only makes sense, if sense is to govern our decisions. No one, common man or huge conglomerate, should hard-headedly rebuild in an area that WILL at some time in the future have to be dealt with in a rescue-reconstitute mode by the government's (our) assistance. And here I am speaking only of the $$ aspect, not the human tragedy aspect of these events. This seems the same to me along the coast and with the major cities there. PLEASE, as rich as the income was that was produced there, do not rebuild that casino-hotel-condo strip that ran from NO to Mobile. Declare a build-free coast that can be restored to its natural condition with sea oats, etc, to establish dunes. Maybe the ports have to be here for the oil and refining, but what else must be there? In the midwest after the Flood of 93, entire towns were rebuilt/moved to higher ground. Shouldn't vulnerable NO be rebuilt differently, NOT in that bowl again? Even moved? I know that I am speaking of $$$$$ from the pockets of many big investors, but again, doesn't all this show us that it is WAY past time for sense, for thinking WAY OUTSIDE the box of past thinking, to reign instead of greed and repetition of past errors?
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Old 09-02-2005, 10:09 AM   #44
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I'll tell you who to blame. Let's blame all the other nations we have helped in their times of need who are doing nothing now. The hurricane was no one's fault, but they had damn well better be feeling pretty guilty for not sending relief now.
Yep....memory is oft selective.
In any event no one should overlook or forget the MASSIVE generosity
of our great nation as we continually PROP UP most of the rest of the
world...we bail EVERYONE out.
If the US suddenly went belly up tomorrow...the rest of the world disappear like a cane field burning in a high wind.
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:50 AM   #45
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You didn't read my post on the previous page?
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Old 09-02-2005, 12:26 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxandgeorgia
...doesn't all this show us that it is WAY past time for sense, for thinking WAY OUTSIDE the box of past thinking, to reign instead of greed and repetition of past errors?
WELL SAID. Well said.
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:14 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Rivetedude
Let's blame all the other nations we have helped in their times of need who are doing nothing now. The hurricane was no one's fault, but they had damn well better be feeling pretty guilty for not sending relief now.
Or, let's not blame everyone else.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationwo...orld-headlines

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/stor...296&p=66yzz598

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L02304097.htm

"The State Department said by early Friday local time, 44 nations and international organizations had offered help, ranging from medical teams and tents to cash donations."

Relief is coming from elsewhere, and if you say it's too little too late, just look at your own government first. I read somwhere around here that there are busses pulling into Houston with dead bodies in them. How's that for the swift and mighty U.S.?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chikagurl
If the US suddenly went belly up tomorrow...the rest of the world disappear like a cane field burning in a high wind.
That's probably the most ridiculous piece of self-righteous, ethnocentric garbage I've ever read.

This country is a little over 200 years old, and the bonze age, the industrial revolution, and the inventions of just about everything from plumbing to paper came from other places, in other amazing and self-sufficient nations and cultures. Yes, we make a huge contribution, but I don't believe for a second that we're more important than anybody else. Just because we put our country in the middle of every map, doesn't make us the center of the world.
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:20 PM   #48
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You know? I feel like I'm starting to tread on thin ice with my emotions, here. I'll make this my last comment, and unsubscribe from this thread. The narrow-mindedness is infuriating. Carry on, Airstreamers!
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Old 09-02-2005, 01:55 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by bredlo
That's probably the most ridiculous piece of self-righteous, ethnocentric garbage I've ever read.

This country is a little over 200 years old, and the bonze age, the industrial revolution, and the inventions of just about everything from plumbing to paper came from other places, in other amazing and self-sufficient nations and cultures. Yes, we make a huge contribution, but I don't believe for a second that we're more important than anybody else. Just because we put our country in the middle of every map, doesn't make us the center of the world.
Ive NEVER said we're MORE IMPORTANT than anyone else.
I SAID we prop everyone else up and always bail them out of trouble.
We help SUPPORT 85% of the world.
Of all the things that we do well in the US...the one single thing we do better
than anyone else in the world is...GENERATE CASH.
I dont personally always like it...but unfortunately IN THIS WORLD thats what matters.

There are miles of difference between what you understood and what I actually said. Ive noticed that before.
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Old 09-02-2005, 02:34 PM   #50
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Did you read my post on previous page?
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Old 09-02-2005, 02:48 PM   #51
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My employer from newswire service:

Air Canada today dispatched an Airbus A321 aircraft from Toronto to New
Orleans, Louisiana, carrying bottled water and relief supplies. As part of the
disaster relief effort organized by the Department of Homeland Security, Air
Canada will operate shuttle flights on a continuous basis over the next
several days to assist in the evacuation of approximately 25,000 victims, from
New Orleans to the safety of Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio Texas.
Since Air Canada received the request for assistance yesterday evening
from the Air Transport Association, of which it is a member, Air Canada
employees worked around the clock to prepare and dispatch the donated aircraft
and voluntary crew for the shuttle mission. The Air Canada Airbus A321 is the
largest narrow-body aircraft in its fleet, capable of carrying up to 166
passengers and 5,600 kg of cargo.
"On behalf of the more than 30,000 employees of Air Canada and the entire
ACE group of companies, I want to express our sadness and extend our
condolences to those affected by this terrible catastrophe," said Robert
Milton, Chairman, President and CEO of ACE Aviation Holdings, on board the
first flight as it departed Toronto today at 1:00 p.m. en route to New
Orleans. "Air Canada is proud to represent Canada in this relief effort and
contribute to help those in greatest need, as quickly as possible."
In addition, Air Canada today announced a partnership with the Canadian
Red Cross to help raise funds to assist people affected by Hurricane Katrina.
Beginning as early as Saturday September 3, 2005, Air Canada and Air Canada
Jazz flight attendants will distribute and collect Red Cross donation
envelopes on flights across its North American network in Canada and the U.S.
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Old 09-02-2005, 04:06 PM   #52
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HALIFAX (CP) - Defence Minister Bill Graham says three warships and a coast guard vessel are being packed with relief supplies and will be sent to Louisiana on Tuesday.
The ships, which will also carry 1,000 personnel, are expected to arrive in the Gulf of Mexico three to four days after departing from Halifax.

Organizers of the mission, dubbed Operation Union, were still compiling a list of what's needed on Friday. They expect to provide humanitarian aid, along with divers, and engineering expertise for reconstruction.

Three Sea King helicopters will also be sent to ferry personnel into the devastated areas.

Graham says he's been consulting with Prime Minister Paul Martin and Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan, who is leading a cabinet committee on aid response.
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Old 09-02-2005, 04:30 PM   #53
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Mayor Ray Nagin Tells it like it is


CNN) -- New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin blasted the slow pace of federal and state relief efforts in an expletive-laced interview with local radio station WWL-AM.
The following is a transcript of WWL correspondent Garland Robinette's interview with Nagin on Thursday night. Robinette asked the mayor about his conversation with President Bush:

NAGIN: I told him we had an incredible crisis here and that his flying over in Air Force One does not do it justice. And that I have been all around this city, and I am very frustrated because we are not able to marshal resources and we're outmanned in just about every respect. (Listen to the mayor express his frustration in this video -- 12:09)

You know the reason why the looters got out of control? Because we had most of our resources saving people, thousands of people that were stuck in attics, man, old ladies. ... You pull off the doggone ventilator vent and you look down there and they're standing in there in water up to their freaking necks.

And they don't have a clue what's going on down here. They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kind of -- excuse my French everybody in America, but I am pissed.

WWL: Did you say to the president of the United States, "I need the military in here"?

NAGIN: I said, "I need everything."

Now, I will tell you this -- and I give the president some credit on this -- he sent one John Wayne dude down here that can get some stuff done, and his name is [Lt.] Gen. [Russel] Honore.

And he came off the doggone chopper, and he started cussing and people started moving. And he's getting some stuff done.

They ought to give that guy -- if they don't want to give it to me, give him full authority to get the job done, and we can save some people.

WWL: What do you need right now to get control of this situation?

NAGIN: I need reinforcements, I need troops, man. I need 500 buses, man. We ain't talking about -- you know, one of the briefings we had, they were talking about getting public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out here.

I'm like, "You got to be kidding me. This is a national disaster. Get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get their moving to New Orleans."

That's -- they're thinking small, man. And this is a major, major, major deal. And I can't emphasize it enough, man. This is crazy.

I've got 15,000 to 20,000 people over at the convention center. It's bursting at the seams. The poor people in Plaquemines Parish. ... We don't have anything, and we're sharing with our brothers in Plaquemines Parish.

It's awful down here, man.

WWL: Do you believe that the president is seeing this, holding a news conference on it but can't do anything until [Louisiana Gov.] Kathleen Blanco requested him to do it? And do you know whether or not she has made that request?

NAGIN: I have no idea what they're doing. But I will tell you this: You know, God is looking down on all this, and if they are not doing everything in their power to save people, they are going to pay the price. Because every day that we delay, people are dying and they're dying by the hundreds, I'm willing to bet you.

We're getting reports and calls that are breaking my heart, from people saying, "I've been in my attic. I can't take it anymore. The water is up to my neck. I don't think I can hold out." And that's happening as we speak.

You know what really upsets me, Garland? We told everybody the importance of the 17th Street Canal issue. We said, "Please, please take care of this. We don't care what you do. Figure it out."

WWL: Who'd you say that to?

NAGIN: Everybody: the governor, Homeland Security, FEMA. You name it, we said it.

And they allowed that pumping station next to Pumping Station 6 to go under water. Our sewage and water board people ... stayed there and endangered their lives.

And what happened when that pumping station went down, the water started flowing again in the city, and it starting getting to levels that probably killed more people.

In addition to that, we had water flowing through the pipes in the city. That's a power station over there.

So there's no water flowing anywhere on the east bank of Orleans Parish. So our critical water supply was destroyed because of lack of action.

WWL: Why couldn't they drop the 3,000-pound sandbags or the containers that they were talking about earlier? Was it an engineering feat that just couldn't be done?

NAGIN: They said it was some pulleys that they had to manufacture. But, you know, in a state of emergency, man, you are creative, you figure out ways to get stuff done.

Then they told me that they went overnight, and they built 17 concrete structures and they had the pulleys on them and they were going to drop them.

I flew over that thing yesterday, and it's in the same shape that it was after the storm hit. There is nothing happening. And they're feeding the public a line of bull and they're spinning, and people are dying down here.

WWL: If some of the public called and they're right, that there's a law that the president, that the federal government can't do anything without local or state requests, would you request martial law?

NAGIN: I've already called for martial law in the city of New Orleans. We did that a few days ago.

WWL: Did the governor do that, too?

NAGIN: I don't know. I don't think so.

But we called for martial law when we realized that the looting was getting out of control. And we redirected all of our police officers back to patrolling the streets. They were dead-tired from saving people, but they worked all night because we thought this thing was going to blow wide open last night. And so we redirected all of our resources, and we hold it under check.

I'm not sure if we can do that another night with the current resources.

And I am telling you right now: They're showing all these reports of people looting and doing all that weird stuff, and they are doing that, but people are desperate and they're trying to find food and water, the majority of them.

Now you got some knuckleheads out there, and they are taking advantage of this lawless -- this situation where, you know, we can't really control it, and they're doing some awful, awful things. But that's a small majority of the people. Most people are looking to try and survive.

And one of the things people -- nobody's talked about this. Drugs flowed in and out of New Orleans and the surrounding metropolitan area so freely it was scary to me, and that's why we were having the escalation in murders. People don't want to talk about this, but I'm going to talk about it.

You have drug addicts that are now walking around this city looking for a fix, and that's the reason why they were breaking in hospitals and drugstores. They're looking for something to take the edge off of their jones, if you will.

And right now, they don't have anything to take the edge off. And they've probably found guns. So what you're seeing is drug-starving crazy addicts, drug addicts, that are wrecking havoc. And we don't have the manpower to adequately deal with it. We can only target certain sections of the city and form a perimeter around them and hope to God that we're not overrun.

WWL: Well, you and I must be in the minority. Because apparently there's a section of our citizenry out there that thinks because of a law that says the federal government can't come in unless requested by the proper people, that everything that's going on to this point has been done as good as it can possibly be.

NAGIN: Really?

WWL: I know you don't feel that way.

NAGIN: Well, did the tsunami victims request? Did it go through a formal process to request?

You know, did the Iraqi people request that we go in there? Did they ask us to go in there? What is more important?

And I'll tell you, man, I'm probably going get in a whole bunch of trouble. I'm probably going to get in so much trouble it ain't even funny. You probably won't even want to deal with me after this interview is over.

WWL: You and I will be in the funny place together.

NAGIN: But we authorized $8 billion to go to Iraq lickety-quick. After 9/11, we gave the president unprecedented powers lickety-quick to take care of New York and other places.

Now, you mean to tell me that a place where most of your oil is coming through, a place that is so unique when you mention New Orleans anywhere around the world, everybody's eyes light up -- you mean to tell me that a place where you probably have thousands of people that have died and thousands more that are dying every day, that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources that we need? Come on, man.

You know, I'm not one of those drug addicts. I am thinking very clearly.

And I don't know whose problem it is. I don't know whether it's the governor's problem. I don't know whether it's the president's problem, but somebody needs to get their on a plane and sit down, the two of them, and figure this out right now.

WWL: What can we do here?

NAGIN: Keep talking about it.

WWL: We'll do that. What else can we do?

NAGIN: Organize people to write letters and make calls to their congressmen, to the president, to the governor. Flood their doggone offices with requests to do something. This is ridiculous.

I don't want to see anybody do anymore goddamn press conferences. Put a moratorium on press conferences. Don't do another press conference until the resources are in this city. And then come down to this city and stand with us when there are military trucks and troops that we can't even count.

Don't tell me 40,000 people are coming here. They're not here. It's too doggone late. Now get off your asses and do something, and let's fix the biggest goddamn crisis in the history of this country.

WWL: I'll say it right now, you're the only politician that's called and called for arms like this. And if -- whatever it takes, the governor, president -- whatever law precedent it takes, whatever it takes, I bet that the people listening to you are on your side.

NAGIN: Well, I hope so, Garland. I am just -- I'm at the point now where it don't matter. People are dying. They don't have homes. They don't have jobs. The city of New Orleans will never be the same in this time.

WWL: We're both pretty speechless here.

NAGIN: Yeah, I don't know what to say. I got to go.

WWL: OK. Keep in touch. Keep in touch.


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Old 09-02-2005, 11:26 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streamer23
Mayor Ray Nagin Tells it like it is
CNN) -- New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin blasted the slow pace of federal and state relief efforts in an expletive-laced interview with local radio station WWL-AM. The following is a transcript of WWL correspondent Garland Robinette's interview with Nagin on Thursday night. Robinette asked the mayor about his conversation with President Bush:
The Mayor of a city gets paid $12K a year and about the most important thing he does is ride the Thanksgiving Day float through town on Turkey Day.
Its a meaningless office.
Its obvious reading this transcript he's in a panic and trying to shuffle "blame".

No one can "anticipate" a natural disaster any more than we could have on 09/11. The Governor of LA issued a TOTAL mandatory evacuation 2 days BEFORE the hurricane made landfall.

Why wasnt he pulling people out of the water instead of spending valuable time flapping his gums with the reporters?
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Old 09-03-2005, 01:57 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dscluchfc
Quote:
Originally Posted by dscluchfc
5) Suspension of OSHA and EPA guidelines on the contractors constructing the refineries and pipelines for crude production and delivery of refined products. Put the entreprenuers to work with incentives for rapid completion and being online with refined product.


Chris, I believe that the country requires some modern "miracles" of engineering and ingenuity.
For instance, Hoover Dam would have never been built in the enviroment of EPA and OSHA, much less built in about half the time allotted.
Notice, that I did not say that the rights of employees to hold the employer responsible for injuries or negligence on the worksite should be waived. I only suggested that EPA and OSHA be kept away from their governmental presence and regulatory threats on site that slow down progress with bureaucratic red tape and compliance. No employer wants to be "unsafe" or negligent.
It is my understanding that after one of the quakes in California that resulted collapse of vital freeway infrastructure, that government contracted with the consensus choice to rebuild the collapsed area in 100 days or less. The contractor was awarded bonuses for each day under the 100 days that he brought the project in, and part of the contractor's demands to the President Clinton's personal representative, Al Gore, was that EPA and OSHA needed to stay away if they ever wanted the project in on time.
As a result, the project was brought in in 70 days and with less than the expected employee injuries from such a project.
I believe that what we need done, can be done IF we get the regulators out of the way long enough.
---just my 2 cents---
You are correct. It was late and I didn't think this point thru completely. As long as you can ensure safe working conditions for employees meanwhile cutting red tape I am all for that.
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Old 09-03-2005, 02:33 AM   #56
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Umm..

Quote:
Originally Posted by dscluchfc
This was to be a thread about ideas on actions that government might take to HELP the country recover as quickly as possible.
The thread seems to have deteriorated from that, and I would like to see the original intent of the thread recaptured.
How might the Federal Government and State Governments get out of the way bureaucratically, and unleash the power of the free economy to aid the speed of the recovery?
What other assistance should be provided through Federal and State agencies?
For what should Congress pass funding?

Enough grousing....how about a discussion of the ideas?
I was just thinking that this thread is a bit off topic. Maybe it should be split into 2 threads one for grousing and one for ideas.
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