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Old 09-01-2005, 11:06 AM   #15
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against my better judgement I have to chime in here:

Raise your children like humans, they'll act like and BE humans
Raise your children like animals, they'll act like animals
Raise your dogs like humans, they'll act like animals
Raise your dogs like animals, they'll act like animals
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:08 AM   #16
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sorry, forgot the last comment: the professor is wrong.
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:18 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Chaplain Kent
One final thought is that our president is so far removed from reality that he shut down Washington for a months vacation. Even with his token response of cutting it short by two days the time it took for the bueaucracy to gear back up was too long to give immediate and adequate help.

Washington DC doesn't "shut down" just because the president goes to TX
for a few weeks. He doesnt run the show single-handedly.
That's a terribly naive statement.
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:23 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkR
against my better judgement I have to chime in here:

Raise your children like humans, they'll act like and BE humans
Raise your children like animals, they'll act like animals
Raise your dogs like humans, they'll act like animals
Raise your dogs like animals, they'll act like animals
Nice argument, but one that sounds great but doesn't really hold water. Obviously dogs and humans are very different animals, with very different capabilities. Just as you would not expect to be able to raise a mouse to BE a dog, you cannot expect a dog to BE a human. Just because we are the most developed animal on our planet doesn't mean we are not animals.

But that's getting way off topic from the real question of how the government can loosten up restriction to help people at the disaster. I agree some restrictions should be loosed, but anyone who thinks that looser restrictions on DOT standards or OSHA standards wouldn't just be a free-for-all is kidding themselves. People would take advantage of that all over the country, and there are many businesses who wouldn't mind working hard and fast and risking injuries or deaths for the extra money they could make.

People don't always make the best decisions, which is why many of these rules were developed. I don't think any of us want to be sharing the roads with truckers free to skip sleep periods indefinitly to keep the supplies moving, because you know some idiots will get wired up on caffine and go for it, and there will be accidents.
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:47 AM   #19
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I think your college professor was right, we are animals just like every other animal on earth. Animals make decisions as well, they weigh out consequences and rewards, just like we do. Dogs don't breed indiscriminately, for example in a pack the alpha can prevent the lower ranking animals from breeding. And giving in to the worst of our impulses, humans will run in packs and terrorize each other, just like animals. I've known that for years. Just watch a group of children taunting one who doesn't fit in.
Now catch one of those same children in the act and confront them and watch them lie, cry, and plead innocence...they KNOW its wrong already

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefrobrts
We have to be taught to be compassionate humans and fit in with society, and unfortunately people don't all learn it (criminals), and the lessons may be forgotten when things get really bad (looters).
We aren't animals. You can liken yourself to the ranks of a chimp or dog
if you wish...but you dont speak for me.
Thats escapism at its finest. Like saying you're powerless to control yourself.
Alcoholics like to blame the "disease"....Criminals like to blame their childhhood...everyone wants something or someone to blame besides themselves. People make choices.
You choose to put the bottle to your mouth...you choose to light the cigarette...you choose to eat the double quarter pounders that give you a coronary.
It isnt someone or something else's fault...its called "personal responsibility".
My best friend coined an original term for it..."being current".
There's no point in reading yesterday's newspaper...its gone.
Live now.
The moment I understood it my life became amazingly more simple and less complicated...and better.
Criminals arent deviant because no one ever told them it was wrong to rape someone or rob a bank. They make a choice to do the wrong thing instead of the right things.
Its much tougher to do right. It takes character.
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Old 09-01-2005, 11:53 AM   #20
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The pillaging and looting is nuts. Executive order numero uno should have been to declare marshal law, bring in the Marines and start getting things under control. With the scale of this disaster the US Military is the only group capable of bringing order.

They're busy right now, restoring order somewhere else.
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Old 09-01-2005, 12:03 PM   #21
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They're busy right now, restoring order somewhere else.
Isn't something less than 10% of the US military in Iraq/Afgahnistan? I would be pleased to stand corrected if anyone has a authoritative source.

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Old 09-01-2005, 12:07 PM   #22
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If I'd grown up in the midst of poverty, as MANY of the people still roaming the streets of New Orleans have (their 9th district was the worst destroyed area, and is separated by chest-height water from the Superdome) I would already be coming from a culture that fears law enforcement, rather than respects it. The absence of police means to them, apparently, that the law is in their own hands. That doesn't excuse it, but it explains it to me somewhat. These aren't rich white people wandering around stealing t.vs.

I'm trying to imagine myself as a poor man with only my wife and children, without food, water, shelter, or means to reach safety... and water to my waist. I'm imagining the only trucks that drive by are government trucks that won't slow down to give me instructions, or my family a ride to safety... (this is happening. I watched it happen live last night. I'm not being dramatic.)

I would pick up a gun as well, or break into a gun shop and take one. I wouldn't steal t.v's and jeans, but I DAMN well would smash a window to get food and water for my family. I would damn well brandish a firearm to protect myself, my wife, my children. And if you issued an order to shoot me on sight, then I'd hope I was a better shot than you.

We're going on five days here, with thousands still stranded. You cannot live for that long without taking matters into your own hands, as far as basic necessities. I'm watching people talking about babies dying, about pushing floating bodies out of the way to wade to an overpass, where you'll most likely still die if something isn't done soon. Bodies are lying on that overpass at the feet of their families - that's the safest place in town.

Animals or not, if you're within that narrow space between life and death, you choose life by any means necessary. Hopefully I will never know what that feels like, but I imagine it's pretty scary trying to survive there right now.

THAT SAID: These people looting non-life sustaining items, or intentionally creating violence, or shooting at the Chinook choppers (as happened at the Superdome this morning,) must be dealt with swiftly and severely - NO arguments there AT ALL.

God save these people - because nobody is bothering to do food drops, as we would for Beiruit or Afghanistan. Perhaps it would "look bad" or something.
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:17 PM   #23
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I really don’t think there are many folks who have a problem with someone fighting to “survive” by taking food from a store or for arming yourself for protection. And I for one, believe the media is purposely editing out (by not filming/showing/talking about) the relief efforts – distribution of food, clothing . . . people ARE "bothering" to help.
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:26 PM   #24
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Well, I was responding to the specific statement by Chikagurl who propsed,

"a standing order immediately that states in no
uncertain terms anyone caught looting or brandishing a firearm
be shot on site. No questions, no warnings, no announcements.
We'd all be better off without this scum."

If Chika meant killing everybody looting for items other than food, or killing everyone using a firearm to intimidate rather than for protection... that's one thing.

But that's exactly my point. That kind of broad brushstroke of a law (without questions, warnings, or announcements) would be disasterous. I'm simply reminding us that much of this "scum" may in fact be innocent people in a genuinely desparate situation.
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:29 PM   #25
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This was to be a thread about ideas on actions that government might take to HELP the country recover as quickly as possible.
The thread seems to have deteriorated from that, and I would like to see the original intent of the thread recaptured.
How might the Federal Government and State Governments get out of the way bureaucratically, and unleash the power of the free economy to aid the speed of the recovery?
What other assistance should be provided through Federal and State agencies?
For what should Congress pass funding?

Enough grousing....how about a discussion of the ideas?
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:47 PM   #26
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What we should do is fund a Manhattan style project and develop hydrogen fuel systems as well as put our idle farm ground to use producing bio-diesel, and become energy independent!
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:51 PM   #27
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Fair enough - the reports I'm seeing is that people in the tens of thousands are mostly located at the Superdome, and a convention center that is surrounded by stagnant water. This is where most of the injured and needy people are. They're crying, begging for water, food, basic supplies.

I suppose this wouldn't be legally possible at all, and perhaps it's naive -- but if I'm Congress, I would put all the pressure I could muster on Walmart, CostCo, Sam's Club, and Target - financial empires with all the necessary materials at their disposal - billions of dollars worth of goods. I would request them to redirect all truck routes in that area to the gulf, carrying their entire supply of fresh water and non-perishable foodstuffs. These companies have part of the solution at their disposal, and the rest of us can easily find other means to get these items (convenient stores, grocery stores, etc.)

This would go a long way to disperse angry crowds, which are growing by the hour. Basic ethics of civilization are breaking down, with shootings and violence - and simple, basic food and medical supplies would go a long way to quell the anger as the government slowly relocates these people.
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Old 09-01-2005, 02:15 PM   #28
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I wish I had the website for you to look at w/the relief info I was looking at yesterday but nearly all of the companies you mention are doing quite a bit, the list of companies who have donated a min. of $1,000,000 is very long. And they are mobilizing . . . And best of all, it's w/o the government or some congresswoman requesting/requiring them to.
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