Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-18-2008, 08:29 AM   #1
Rivet Master
 
toastie's Avatar
 
Currently Looking...
1955 22' Safari
Great Lake State , .
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,459
GM facts and fiction

Facts About the Auto Crisis - GM Facts and Fiction
__________________

__________________
toastie is offline  
Old 11-18-2008, 09:20 AM   #2
Rivet Master
 
till's Avatar
 
Lisle , Illinois
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,270
Images: 108
Blog Entries: 2
Let them suck it up and file for bankruptcy and reorganize into a competitive company. I think all three of the auto makers should. I think that they are bloated just like wall street and a lot of the American big corporations. Let the big guys take a hit for a change and maybe life will get back to a reasonable standard. Greed has taken over as the "American way" it seams. I am saddened by this.

I have no problem with some one making a buck or two, but some of the profits that are being made are on a insane scale.

Off the soap box. Sorry....
__________________

__________________
Tedd Ill
AIR#3788 TAC IL-10
1967/8 Overlander International Twin w/ bunk/s.
Yes, four kids and two adults in the thing.
Happy wife, happy life.
till is offline  
Old 11-18-2008, 09:45 AM   #3
2 Rivet Member
 
Stephen Mick's Avatar
 
2006 28' International CCD
Austin , Texas
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 87
Images: 1
I'm not sure I'd trust the GM site to offer up "facts" about the auto crisis.
__________________
Stephen Mick is offline  
Old 11-18-2008, 10:18 AM   #4
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
For all those that think the big 3 should file bankruptcy...different than companies that have the capitol to carry on throughout the bankruptcy and restructure...they say that it would effect evryone across the country even the globe. Now I have heard that so many times that 1 in 10 jobs across America would be affected and that is just the beginning. It would have a domino effect on other business and workers.

I really don't think government would give it a second thought if it were not so. I also don't think they will be handing over money without getting heavily involved in how it is used.

Anyone read Tobacco Road? I have just started it last night. Written in 1932 and almost erie in correlation as it starts out.
__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline  
Old 11-18-2008, 10:28 AM   #5
Rivet Master
 
hampstead38's Avatar
 
1967 26' Overlander
Upperco , Maryland
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,087
Blog Entries: 22
A government bailout will not change the fundamental problems of the American auto industry. In fact, every government intervention in the markets only forestalls the inevitable... unless, of course, you think the U.S. government should simply nationalize the automobile industry and place protective tariffs to protect an inferior domestic product.

To produce a competitive vehicle, GM pays too much in current compensation to the UAW and too much in benefits to retirees. All a bailout does is allow GM to continue for a limited time. Until the "Big Three" make fundamental changes, they will fail in the marketplace.

Added:

"A studybefore today's proposed cuts estimated that pension and other retiree benefits add $1,360 to the cost of every GM vehicle produced, compared with $734 at Ford (NYSE: F), $631 at Chrysler (NYSE: DCX), $107 at Honda (NYSE: HMC), and $190 at Toyota."
hampstead38 is offline  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:03 AM   #6
Aluminut
 
Silvertwinkie's Avatar
 
2004 25' Safari
. , Illinois
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,334
I'm not quite sure how the words bailout have come to be, particularly when it comes to the auto industry.

First, the big three are looking for loans, not hand outs.

Second, if we don't do it and the economy continues to slow, do you really feel that filing bankruptcy and putting 1 out of every 10 manufacturing jobs at risk of evaporating is going to help or if most of these jobs of go overseas as well?

As distasteful as it may be, the fact is that GM, Ford, Chrysler gave us exactly what we wanted...big, fast, gas guzzling cars. Though clearly automakers have some fault here, it always amazes me how back in 2000 when the Insight, Prius, etc were out there, few folks bought them...instead, we bought the SUVs, fast cars that got poor mileage.....and now we blame the auto industry for giving us what we wanted. Even Toyota with their pickups, we flocked to them too and guess what, they aren't much better in MPG either compared to the econoboxes....but again, most of us bought 4Runners, Tundras, etc....... Insights and Prius type cars really only took off when gas hit $2. If you recall, even at $2/gal, driving habits and consumption didn't change....and continued that way until we crossed into $3/gal and then we all had a meltdown (me too) when it hit $4.50/gal and cried foul...then and only then did demand drop off.

My point here is we didn't take our business to the more fuel efficient vehicles until gas hit $3+/gallon. So we too have some level of blame to accept for continuing to buy these dinosaurs.

I know that for some applications, like towing, you just need to have it since a Prius is not going to haul much more than say a jet ski, if that.

As we swing the blame, make sure we all pick up a small part of it ourselves.

I will fully agree however that the UAW, like most unions are obsolete and in more cases than not the problem, not the solution, as proven by the costs outlined above...while they complain all the way that they had to give up some ground about a year ago. Guess what, it's going to take a heck of a lot more ground the unions will have to give up if the domestics are to stay competitive....that or they will move most manufac off shore.
__________________
Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq and millions of others are by far the most popular with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form. -NY Times 11/91
Silvertwinkie is offline  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:12 AM   #7
Aluminut
 
Silvertwinkie's Avatar
 
2004 25' Safari
. , Illinois
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,334
Oh and PS, before we then start to sling the discussion to politics, most of us will recall the oil embargo of the 70s.

We all knew 30 years ago how addicted we were to oil then and through every administration and election, we stayed our course of bigger, faster and only meagerly increased efficiencies.

Again, my point is that it's not just the industry that is to blame.
__________________
Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq and millions of others are by far the most popular with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form. -NY Times 11/91
Silvertwinkie is offline  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:13 AM   #8
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
Do you think any of that high cost per vehicle is because of forestalled monies that should have been set aside long ago instead of relying on projections of profits? I think that may be why it is now so high. GM promised and promised their monies along the way for years and years but did not actually bank it??? I'm just asking. But if that was the case it isn't because the workers get so much but more how GM has managed itself. We're just not seeing these high on the hog living conditions here. It may seem like auto workers are raking it in but it aint so, I think. And not all the auto workers were union either.
__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:18 AM   #9
2 Rivet Member
 
Stephen Mick's Avatar
 
2006 28' International CCD
Austin , Texas
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 87
Images: 1
Poor management, bad labor deals and lack of foresight is not my fault, any more than lack of regulation and oversight is my fault in the financial sector.

If we want to truly be a free-market economy, the GMs and Fords of the economy have to be allowed to die if they cannot compete. If we bail them out (and anyone else), let's stop kidding ourselves about being a "capitalist" country.
__________________
Stephen Mick is offline  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:29 AM   #10
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
We are very co-dependent these days economically. It wouldn't just take down the big three it would take a lot of other business and workers with it. It is all unprecidented. Ford actually turned a profit not long ago but then the bottom dropped out. Who ever could have anticipated what we have seen and are seeing? It's one nasty surprise all way around and can't actually pinpoint the culprits.

What market?
__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:48 AM   #11
Rivet Master
 
hampstead38's Avatar
 
1967 26' Overlander
Upperco , Maryland
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,087
Blog Entries: 22
The problems of a private business are not my responsibility... or my problem unless I'm an owner, employee or shareholder. As noted by Stephen, I didn't twist GM's arm to sign unfavorable UAW contracts or give retirees specific benefits. As for how much autoworkers earn, that is a subject of some discussion.

The simple fact is that the Big Three (some say 2.5) are not well managed. Why should the taxpayers subsidize these particular businesses? Because they are big? America is the home to many multi-billion dollar market cap, multinational firms. Why not give IBM some loans? American automakers are in trouble because they made poor business decisions. There is absolutely no reason to think giving (or lending) them money will help them make better decisions. Certainly, I cannot imagine government loans will induce the car companies to rework bad union contracts or cut benefits or make better cars.

I am old enough to remember when "made in Japan" was a pejorative. Then, in the 60s and 70s when the quality of American cars was declining, manufacturers like Toyota, Datsun (now Nissan) and Honda brought cars into the American market that were better built and more reliable than American cars. This is how capitalism and the free market work. If a company comes along and builds a better product or provides a better service at a better price, they profit. Those companies that can't or won't compete eventually fail... unless they are propped up by government support in the form of subsidies, tax breaks, regulations or tariffs. In the long term, we all benefit most when the most efficient firms succeed and the most inefficient firms fail.
hampstead38 is offline  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:58 AM   #12
2 Rivet Member
 
1999 25' Safari
Port Huron , Michigan
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 66
Thumbs up Autoworkers Jobs

Hi I live just north of Detroit.I have many friends that are retired autoworkers.Plus manywho are currently working for the big 3.
1Fact 1out of 10 jobs is auto business.If these companies go down the unemployment cost will be huge.

Fact the big 3 andUAW have already changed many contract items like health insurance and 2 tier wage concession. Dont throw the baby out with the bath water, reform OUR auto industry not destory it.

FACT the big three quality has gone way up in the last few years.I have a GMC tow v. it is just wonderful.
Fact for national defense we need the big 3 to build tanks/ armoured personel carriers/

THese are our fellow Americans support them .If we can bail out AIG . WE can LOAN the big 3 this money!!

These auto jobs effect people not just in Detroit but all over the country.The Japs are always helping their auto industry . Lets help OUR OWN PEOPLE !!!! Show you care about America call write your congressman. SAVE these JOBS< thank you and GOD BLESS AMERICA
JIM A
__________________
mi silver is offline  
Old 11-18-2008, 12:37 PM   #13
CLOUDSPLITTER "Tahawas"
 
ROBERT CROSS's Avatar

 
2003 25' Classic
Zanadude Nebula , WNY
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 11,153
Images: 1
Thumbs down

I recieved the same e-mail today.

Don't pay attention, then, "please help us".

How 'bout..us?
__________________
PFC.....

“After all these years the reason I continue to love Thanksgiving.....I still sit at the kids table.”
RLC

Sandra wanted to go to Cleveland on vacation,
but I’m the Husband, so we went to Cleveland.
RLC
ROBERT CROSS is offline  
Old 11-18-2008, 12:39 PM   #14
Aluminut
 
Silvertwinkie's Avatar
 
2004 25' Safari
. , Illinois
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Mick View Post
Poor management, bad labor deals and lack of foresight is not my fault, any more than lack of regulation and oversight is my fault in the financial sector.

If we want to truly be a free-market economy, the GMs and Fords of the economy have to be allowed to die if they cannot compete. If we bail them out (and anyone else), let's stop kidding ourselves about being a "capitalist" country.

A narrow and singular vision. Again, the big 2.5 are not asking for a handout. Just loan guarantees and if need be the gov will get stock.

The bottom line is this, you can either agree to float loans to the big 2.5 or you can pay the enormous price that the unemployment, heathcare/pension will cost.

Either way, you're going to pay. The second option (picking up the unemployment, etc costs) are going to cost us far, far more, and put at least 100k or more folks out of a job (far beyond what the big 2.5 directly employ), further shrinking the already contracting job markets here.

If we are going to pay either way (which don't kid yourself, we would be), then I vote that we loan them the money, they get their acts together and we keep 1 out of 10 jobs in this country on our shores.

I think looking at this any other way is frankly shortsighted and a knee jerk reaction (no disrespect intended). There are really only two options and doing nothing is not one of them.......

I might feel differently if we hadn't already lost a boat load of jobs to outsourcing overseas. At this point, we've outsourced about as much as we can, and letting 1 out of 10 jobs evaporate just isn't in any of the compaines or the country's (meaning you and I) best interest.

PS- If you don't think other countries subsidize their business, guess again. Japan, China, etc all subsidize various industries. Why? It's in their best interest to do so. If you think Socialism isn't already here in this country, guess again, cause my feeling is the next few years, we're gonna see a LOT more of it.
__________________

__________________
Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq and millions of others are by far the most popular with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form. -NY Times 11/91
Silvertwinkie is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
70's era Metal Ceiling Specs and R & R (Remove & Replace) Facts Distantdrummer General Interior Topics 3 06-22-2008 04:04 PM
The Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest 85MH325 Off Topic Forum 0 03-23-2006 07:24 AM
Univolt FACTS smily Electrical - Systems, Generators, Batteries & Solar 69 08-19-2005 12:47 AM
Interesting facts excelladep Our Community 8 06-08-2002 10:11 PM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.