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Old 11-21-2008, 07:50 PM   #161
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The Eisenhower National Defense Highway System was built ostensibly for being able to move military assets nationally during the Cold War. The Nike was the leading missile of the day. There wasn't a single underpass in the new highway system that could accommodate a Nike missile. Roger
Actually, the Nike missiles were long and skinny-about 10 or 11' long and were a foot, or so, in diameter. Maybe you're thinking of the Atlas. It was about 10' in diameter as I recall. I think the Eisenhower theory was that men and machinery could be moved around w/out a lot of trouble.

The Nike missile system was originally built as an anti-aircraft weapons system. They were housed in silos in the ground and were basically ringing large cities. The first one was the Nike Ajax followed in 1958 w/ the Nike Hercules which was made to intercept and destroy ballistic missiles. The Nike Zeus, later renamed Spartan, came around in the late 60's. All of these things were installed in concrete silos and had a command center for 12 or 14 of these silo sights. These centers were manned 24 hours a day but the silos usually were not. If the need arose, a concrete and steel door would move off the underground silo and the missile would be launched.

Once the missiles were in the ground, there were not moved unless they were upgraded. The area south of Kansas City had a bunch of sites. They were identifed as a square chain link fenced area about 200' square w/ a gravel drive and a blue number such as D-13 on the fence. There are several of these sites w/ 15 miles of my house. I grew up around these things (I live across the road from a decommissioned command center now-KC 30, if you're interested) and it wasn't a big deal. If it got boring, we used to walk up to the wire and shake it really hard and then run. Usually, in about 20 minutes, a helicopter w/ armed air force APs would arrive. Great fun!

See: Microsoft TerraServer Imagery

The command center is about 1/4 mile south of where the E-W road curves S. It is the rectangular area just south of the trees. The buildings are to the west. I live just across the E-W road but the house wasn't there in1996.

Sorry about the lesson but it was pretty neat to be in the middle of all of this. It was not a big deal--just the air force and their missiles down the street. What could be neater?
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:56 PM   #162
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What was good for GM and the country (their bottom line)was to kill public transportation. In 1922 one in ten people owned cars, Alfred P. Sloan figured if GM could destroy public transportation ( street cars) they could sell autos to the other 90%. So who is coercing who into behavior that they think is better for society.Corporate profits trump any social concerns.The only way to change these companies behaviour is to legislate it. The reason they don't build small energy effecient cars in this country is because the profit per unit is so much smaller.

I would beg to differ, it's because the majority of people in America don't want the little tin cans.
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:15 PM   #163
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"The only way to change these companies behaviour is to legislate it."

Which is exactly what command economies attempt to do... and usually fail, but it certainly has not stopped the utopian socialists from trying.

The success of the car is not unlike the success of the Internet. Why has the Internet exploded? Because it is a user-driven experience. Unlike television or the movies, it is a decentralized, market driven universe where the user decides where to go. Like the Interstate Highway System it was originally built by government but become something entirely greater... but not because the government intended it to be so. Are you beginning to see the parallels? The success of the automobile was inevitable as compared to transit (despite the deeply romantic notion that we were already happier and life was better when we were riding street cars). Public transit is centralized, not decentralized. It is a command, not market, economy. The experience is top-down, not bottom up. It is driven by "someone else," not the user.

People who feel like Craftsman will continue to support the government regulating businesses, and all human activity, "for our own good." And these folks cannot blame individuals, so the fiction of evil corporations is used... as if corporations are operated by distant galactic overlords or robot masters. The real frustration for the utopian socialists is that people simply do not have the common courtesy to behave exactly as the socialists feel they should. We all do not ride public transit. We all do not pack brown bag lunches filled with organic soy snacks. We all do not live in walk-up flats in the inner city and send our children to substandard public schools. Why, some of us even dare to shop for groceries at places other than Whole Foods.

Please do not read this as a screed, but as tongue-in-cheek humor. As long as we retain a reasonable amount of economic freedom, I find these discussion interesting and entertaining rather than threatening. Unlike the doomsayers, I'm a human optimist. Personal freedom, and free markets, are too powerful of genies to be pushed back into the bottle. In long run, we will alll become more free and the world will be better for it.
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:33 PM   #164
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Greedom is good. whoops freudian slip? (I think I'll just leave that.) Freedom is good. Mass transportation kind of literally stinks if not downright dangerous, certainly inconvenient. I'm not taking my clothes off in line to board a plane either. That's why we bought the Airstream. And the Airstream needs a stout vehicle and we had to wait until fall even to get a medium sized engine and the big engines were just not offered in an SUV.

SUVs just as cross bicycles are a compromise of benefits and tradeoffs. It suits a particular set of needs. I'm not sad there is better performance and quality. There also is a compromise in purchase price. But I think it is a very worthy vehicle and we like it and we are not commuters. But when I do take the beast out I feel like slinking behind the wheel because of the prevailing attitudes.
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:55 PM   #165
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Greedom is good. whoops freudian slip? (I think I'll just leave that.) Freedom is good. Mass transportation kind of literally stinks if not downright dangerous, certainly inconvenient. I'm not taking my clothes off in line to board a plane either. That's why we bought the Airstream. And the Airstream needs a stout vehicle and we had to wait until fall even to get a medium sized engine and the big engines were just not offered in an SUV.

SUVs just as cross bicycles are a compromise of benefits and tradeoffs. It suits a particular set of needs. I'm not sad there is better performance and quality. There also is a compromise in purchase price. But I think it is a very worthy vehicle and we like it and we are not commuters. But when I do take the beast out I feel like slinking behind the wheel because of the prevailing attitudes.
Greed exists no matter what type of government a country has and history has shown us that greed is much more dangerous in communist gov's, socialist gov's, dictatorships and other forms of Utopia. It's much harder to control things where freedom exists.

Carol don't slink, be proud, give em da bird.
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Old 11-21-2008, 09:06 PM   #166
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Subsidies and the confusion of movin'

I've looked at considerable length for a coin slot in the stop sign in front of my house. It doesn't have one, and I'm at a total loss as to how it pays its own way. "Fuel taxes" is the argument, I suppose, but every time I see it up close, I'm either walking or on my bike.

It just gets worse when I think about the cross walk in front of my kids' school. No coin slot there either, so certainly that's a pedestrian construct, subsidized by fuel tax. And I'm allowed by law to drive an electric car or ride my bike to that school. So no, the roads to not totally pay their own way. They contribute to our economy, but they are not the only contributor, and they have an associated cost.

Never mind that the fuel tax does not adequately compensate for the lost property tax revenue of the extra lanes of highway. BNSF pays insurance, construction, maintenance, and real estate tax on their rights of way - and they're still the cheapest mode of transcontinental freight. They truly do pay their own way.

But the roads... I'll repeat the statement I posted earlier. When we don't have public transport, we are stating in very clear terms that it's OK to drive without insurance or without a license. We are very nearly saying it's OK to steal a car, because without one you'll almost certainly be at the lowest rung of the social and economic ladders. I don't think we should be saying these things.

Yes the law says otherwise, but the law also says to come to a complete stop at stop signs. And when I'm examining that sign for a coin slot, I don't see a lot of compliance.
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Old 11-21-2008, 09:17 PM   #167
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... Mass transportation kind of literally stinks if not downright dangerous, certainly inconvenient. ...
In some cases this is true, and the tremendous absence of it (public transit) is very high up among the reasons I moved away from Michigan.
But in many cases the description is really unfair. Two of the best vacations Mrs R & I have had have found us crossing the plains on Amtrak. Even in winter it was fantastic.
The Bay Area's BART, DC's Metro, the bus systems of Portland & Seattle (and rail between them) ... I've found them all to be clean and convenient. Even taking the South Shore Line into Chicago from South Bend beats driving in there 7/7 days (we were camped at Potato Creek St Pk at the time, and wanted to visit some museums).
For that matter, we regularly take our children downtown on our local bus service lest their heads get too big. Transit, like nature, is something I find myself adapting to. In a while, it becomes second nature, and the time spent waiting for a bus - and the time spent on it - is actually pretty good time with the kids. Conversation is unforced, unhurried, natural. Just like it was when my parents did that to me :-)
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Old 11-21-2008, 09:34 PM   #168
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Let me tell you about my Amtrak adventure! Train travel is cool especially if you have a compartment but at 1 in the morning we were awakened I had to get the then kiddies dressed by myself stuff together manhandle the luggage unboard the train walk down the snowy road alternating baggage and resteps, wait by the side of the hill for a freezing city bus with no heat or restroom to going round and round and round the mountains at 3 in the morning until we connected with another train that ran out of food and beverages and arrived in Chicago some 8 hours late. Sure that is extreme because of a derailment on the tracks but ask people on the nightmare cruises how they liked their trip.

I had to take two buses to school every day and then two buses and a train then walk a mile after school to get to my parent's business. I don't miss it. And talk about characters... Mass transit holds you hostage to unpleasant variables. We didn't even own a car for the logest time. Restaurants, doctor appointments, visits all taking the bus and trains. Walk to church and the stores.

Can't understand wanting more legislation and less choice. Nice feature to have the option of but runs in the red with your dollars too.
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Old 11-22-2008, 12:07 AM   #169
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Subsidies and the confusion of movin'

But the roads... I'll repeat the statement I posted earlier. When we don't have public transport, we are stating in very clear terms that it's OK to drive without insurance or without a license. We are very nearly saying it's OK to steal a car, because without one you'll almost certainly be at the lowest rung of the social and economic ladders. I don't think we should be saying these things.
I'm not sure I understand your statements...

Where in the world do we (and who's we?) "state" that it's OK? That's like saying if there's no welfare then it's OK to steal food and whatever else I deem to be a necessity! That's so far off-base I don't even know where to start. Are you mandating Socialism or Entitlement?
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Old 11-22-2008, 12:33 AM   #170
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The reference to a railroad above is interesting in this discussion, and not just because most vehicles arrive near the dealerships on trains.
Does anyone remember a railroad called Conrail? I could go on at length about it, but the Reader's Digest version is: The government took over several bankrupt railroads in the Northeast and Midwest, jettisoned a bunch of redundant parts of them, hired outside (non government) people to run it,and turned it into a profitable company. When it was offered back to the private sector, its initial stock offering was the highest in history up till that time, and may still be (I haven't checked lately).
My point (I do have one) is the government may have to do the same with the Big 3. I hope it doesn't come to that, as the above company was a fiasco for many years before it got straightened out. The government has taken over private business before, and I'm sure it will again, in the cause of national interest. Even auto makers. Anybody remember the War Production Board?
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Old 11-22-2008, 01:54 AM   #171
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We need to look at more elegant solutions to moving goods, services, and people than using 5,000 lb cars to move a person over some distance. There have got to be more efficient ways to do it that have a lower impact economically and environmentally. All I'm suggesting is that we redirect some of the money we're spending currently into more efficient modes of transport.
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This coming from the guy who is towing a travel trailer with a motorhome. Hmmmm.... That's got to be the pinnacle of efficiency.
You're right, there are much more efficient ways to travel and, since this is a website dedicated to campers, to go camping. Problem is, Americans don't want to give up their large vehicles for a teenie little econobox for the same reason no one on here is willing to give up their Airstream for a tent. Are you willing to trade your rig for this?
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Old 11-22-2008, 05:53 AM   #172
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I'm not sure I understand your statements...

Where in the world do we (and who's we?) "state" that it's OK? That's like saying if there's no welfare then it's OK to steal food and whatever else I deem to be a necessity! That's so far off-base I don't even know where to start. Are you mandating Socialism or Entitlement?
Not at all. The theft comment was over the top, but it was only for effect.

If we (those of us who vote) choose to run our zoning so we have bedroom communities that support our base industries, and choose not to fund public transport, then we (again, those of us who vote) are stating that to live in that community one must have a car. In many places you cannot walk or ride a bike or a bus to grocery stores, pharmacies, libraries, or other retail. That is, you could technically walk or ride, but there is often no accommodation and in some instances it would be illegal (limited access roads, for example).

So we've forced people who live in a certain place to have a car. A great many places, in fact. If you lived in one of these neighborhoods, where the gated community opens to a four lane highway and the nearest shopping is 5 miles down that road (and the elementary schools are 5 miles up it), and say your insurer drops you through a clerical error, you lose your job and you can't get groceries.

And when our big box mall stores hire recent immigrants to wash and clean, often times they find themselves walking 3-4 miles or riding bikes the wrong way down busy roads to get jobs so they can feed their kids. Yes, even, perhaps especially those here legally. Consequently many of them can afford a cheap car but not the insurance and some don't care - especially those here illegally. The message we're telling them is pretty clear: "Drive a car and you can get jobs your more pedestrian compadres can't." This applies to the neighbor's teen agers (but not our own, of course ) as well.

It's a foolish corner to have painted ourselves into.

Either we accommodate public transit or we find ourselves with ever increasing premiums to cover the uninsured and unlicensed. If I'm going to pay an extra 300+ a year in tax (and this was my experience with no-fault - it was effectively a tax) I'd rather have it go to something I can use.

What I am proposing is that we think of transportation as a whole issue. We shouldn't underestimate the value of personal mobility from the car, but we shouldn't worship it as the only solution either.

Beyond that, as our (national average "our") kids trend toward obesity, we need to think of things to get them off their bottoms. But that's a different subject.

Back on topic, I'm not necessarily against the loans, but we (taxpayers) do need guarantees.
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Old 11-22-2008, 07:20 AM   #173
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So we've forced people who live in a certain place to have a car.

No one has ever forced me to live in a certain place (does the US Army count?) and no one has ever forced me to own anything (does a county property tax bill count?)

We live out in the country now. No sirens, gunshots, people screaming for help, boomboxes, or other noise associated w/ living in the city. I worked for the city of Kansas City for 25 years and my choice is rural.

To that end, yes, I have to drive something to get motorcycle parts, beer, or other necessities. It's my choice!

Mass transit is nice. Among the reasons it will never pass in KC is the sentiment:" It doesn't go down my street so why should I vote for it?"

The bus service in town has been 80% subsidized forever. It never came close to paying for itself. The stop sign analogy makes no sense.

There are people here (and everywhere, I suspect) that blame folks for moving to the suburbs or farther. They blame white flight, urban sprawl, racial disparity, entitlement and a host of other things for the move.

If a bus came by, I'd ride it. There is no bus. If you want to ride the bus, good for you.
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Old 11-22-2008, 07:45 AM   #174
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The reason they don't build small energy effecient cars in this country is because the profit per unit is so much smaller.
Nope, its because not enough people want them. I for one don't!!!
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Old 11-22-2008, 07:59 AM   #175
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Does anyone remember a railroad called Conrail? The government took over several bankrupt railroads in the Northeast and Midwest, jettisoned a bunch of redundant parts of them, hired outside (non government) people to run it,and turned it into a profitable company.
I do remember Conrail. I lived on the east coast then and I rode it. A splendid example, however that is not what the Congress is proposing now. These idiots think they are the smartest people in the world and should run the Big 3 themselves. You know, Congressional oversight! Like FreddyMac and FannyMae.

I do believe the government can do a good job reorganizing companies if you keep the idiot politicians out of it.
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Old 11-22-2008, 10:39 AM   #176
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No one has ever forced me to live in a certain place (does the US Army count?) and no one has ever forced me to own anything (does a county property tax bill count?)
We live out in the country now. No sirens, gunshots, people screaming for help, boomboxes, or other noise associated w/ living in the city. I worked for the city of Kansas City for 25 years and my choice is rural.
I realize that rural is quite a different thing, having lived in both rural and urban areas. I was specifically thinking of suburban or extra-urban areas. Isolated enclaves of housing developed with no thought given to access to services. I can think of several "towns" outside of Cincinnati that fit this nicely, as well as a couple of heavy handed homeowner neighborhoods in my own backyard.
I did not say the government (as an extension of our expressed desires) tells you where to live, but it does tell you that to function in society you need to drive. Milford, Michigan is a sterling example. Hundreds of thousands of people driving on combinations of I-94, I-96, and US-23 to access GM's proving grounds (and other areas for the Big 3) - and there is NO alternative. It's insane. It's two miles from the proving grounds to town - no shoulder no sidewalk. And don't let's talk about trying to cross the street in front of GM's tech center. In the modern vernacular: FAIL.
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...
The bus service in town has been 80% subsidized forever. It never came close to paying for itself. The stop sign analogy makes no sense.
...
The stop sign never pays for itself, yet we unblinkingly accept it as an integral part of our transportation solution.
Why?
Or better yet, why do we accept the even more expensive stoplight without question as well?
The question doesn't need answered, but I hope it does make one think, rather than blindly accepting the status quo.
It's the premise that fuel taxes cover the cost of optimizing our infrastructure for things that burn fuel. This isn't quite accurate as the sources of funding come from other than solely gasoline taxes. License fees, wheel taxes, tire taxes, and other state, local, and federal revenues also are gathered and distributed - and yes even that township bridge was likely built with some federal money. Beyond that, suppose we add another 6 lanes of highway through KC over the next 20 years. How much real estate (and subsequent loss of property tax revenue) will be recovered before the 12 lanes of the new I70 pay their own way?

Now, to bridge back to topic... The loan approved last month essentially specified highly efficient or electric vehicles from the 3. An electric car generates no fuel taxes, consequently "will not pay its own way" in the same sense that a bus or passenger train does not. But I'm thinking that electrics aren't bad things, (nor is natural gas), as it gives our economy a cushion against the shock of wildly fluctuating energy prices. Tying the loans to that, then makes sense to me, BUT in any case it means we have to rethink our transportation policies.
What can we do, what should we do, and what precious assumptions are no longer relevant are all critically important questions.
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Old 11-22-2008, 11:02 AM   #177
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At this point being shocked by the death of GM is like being shocked at the death of a 101 year old man who has been in failing health for 40 years.

A week after the funeral no one will care, not even the overpaid executives and overpaid union employees who ran it into the ground.

There are plenty of other car companies. To think people will stop buying cars is ridiculous. To think anyone will lose their jobs (other than the above named execs and union employees) is likewise ridiculous.

People will keep buying cars, and the auto industry will keep on as before.

If the government decides to keep these zombies on life support, that will cost billions of $$$$ and may well hobble us from getting out of this mess.
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Old 11-22-2008, 11:13 AM   #178
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I'm wondering, then, if the "Conrail Idea" might be a better plan than the "throwing money at it" idea. For their billions, the government should appoint an outside person to oversee the companies, and only step aside when the companies have again gained viability as companies.
BTW, we rode the city bus a few days ago to a local mall. A half hour wait to catch the bus, and another 45 minute ride to get to the mall that was less than two miles away. We took a taxi back, it took 5 minutes. If cities would work on their bus routes, instead of making every bus go to several points along their route (every bus route went to the mall, and other places, no matter where else they went), more people might ride them, and they would not spend so much in fuel getting from A to B in those buses.
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Old 11-22-2008, 11:35 AM   #179
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Not at all. The theft comment was over the top, but it was only for effect.

If we (those of us who vote) choose to run our zoning so we have bedroom communities that support our base industries, and choose not to fund public transport, then we (again, those of us who vote) are stating that to live in that community one must have a car. In many places you cannot walk or ride a bike or a bus to grocery stores, pharmacies, libraries, or other retail. That is, you could technically walk or ride, but there is often no accommodation and in some instances it would be illegal (limited access roads, for example).
Just as "we" state that to live in some communities you must have a 6 figure income - in order to afford the house and property taxes and etc. The responsibility of every individual person is to determine if they can afford the house, the car, and the related expenses associated with living wherever they choose. It is not our (voters) responsibility to make sure they can afford a car or provide an alternative means of transportation.

Quote:
So we've forced people who live in a certain place to have a car. A great many places, in fact. If you lived in one of these neighborhoods, where the gated community opens to a four lane highway and the nearest shopping is 5 miles down that road (and the elementary schools are 5 miles up it), and say your insurer drops you through a clerical error, you lose your job and you can't get groceries.
Personal choice to live there (wherever there is). Someone who can't afford a car should obviously not choose to live where one is "needed". (Recognize also that "need" is very subjective).

Quote:
And when our big box mall stores hire recent immigrants to wash and clean, often times they find themselves walking 3-4 miles or riding bikes the wrong way down busy roads to get jobs so they can feed their kids. Yes, even, perhaps especially those here legally. Consequently many of them can afford a cheap car but not the insurance and some don't care - especially those here illegally. The message we're telling them is pretty clear: "Drive a car and you can get jobs your more pedestrian compadres can't." This applies to the neighbor's teen agers (but not our own, of course ) as well.
Without getting too far off-topic of the already off-topic topic I won't address the legal vs. illegal, but that's the kind of work ethic I admire. A person that is willing to do whatever it takes (within the bounds of the law) to earn an income and support themselves and their family has earned my respect. It's a shame too many Americans (of every race and gender) have developed a lazy, entitlement mentality that says you owe it to me.

I think you are the only one who somehow derives that conclusion. What about simply living closer to your place of employment? Or finding another job? It's not like the job example you gave is high paying, or one that requires a specialized skill.

Quote:
Either we accommodate public transit or we find ourselves with ever increasing premiums to cover the uninsured and unlicensed. If I'm going to pay an extra 300+ a year in tax (and this was my experience with no-fault - it was effectively a tax) I'd rather have it go to something I can use.
How about simply enforcing the laws that require insurance? (I do realize that statement alone could sound kind of naive - I understand it's not quite that simple). Or restructuring the insurance industry so that we don't pay for the uninsured and underinsured - that's just not right.
(Tongue firmly planted in cheek) We could just let the government provide insurance for those who can't afford it right? Since we're already talking welfare or entitlement. If you think public transportation will prevent the uninsured from driving, well...
Why don't we ever address the root of the problem, be it auto insurance, or health insurance, or the banking system, etc.

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Back on topic, I'm not necessarily against the loans, but we (taxpayers) do need guarantees.
Exactly! Without a viable business plan, (i.e. something that is NOT business as usual!) then all the "loan" would be is another government handout that would simply postpone the inevitable.
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GreatPumpkin is offline  
Old 11-22-2008, 11:46 AM   #180
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I am not shocked that some dont want to LOAN the auto companies money. Those mean spirited posts like the one from "Ganaraska" are hurtful. I am a union member, thats how I support my children, thats how I hope to send them to college so they can get a better education than I had. So someday my son could take advantage of his many talents. So what your saying is you just dont care that my ex wife will lose her home because I cant pay child support? and next year it will be forgotton?
What do you do for a living? if your going to attack others, put your rate of pay for us to see and evaluate. Ill tell you if your worth it. Where do you work? I would like to post sensless negative posts over the internet in high hopes I may ruin you financially!
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