Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-20-2008, 11:32 AM   #99
Rivet Master
 
GreatPumpkin's Avatar
 
Currently Looking...
Colville , Washington
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,033
Images: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by hampstead38 View Post
Wal-Mart is a poor comparison with GM for any number of reasons. One, Wal-Mart has an effective business model despite criticisms; GM does not. Of course, some have argued there are far better ways to structure a bailout of the current economy...
Thanks for a more balanced look, neither for nor against -and a lot more accurate.

Earlier I was being lambasted for trying to compare WM to GM. I must point out I was not the one making the original comparison...that was made back in post #18. and then again in post #26. My point in posting was to attempt to refute the erroneous comparisons being made.

That short sentence "GM does not" should be the greatest determining factor in whether or not a loan should be approved (for any of the big 3). The absence of a viable, achievable business plan should preclude any mention of a loan.

BTW - they've already been approved for a $25 billion loan. They now want an additional $25 billion! The first loan was supposed to be help for building more fuel effecient cars. Shouldn't a viable, realistic business plan have already been put in place to address that very issue? If a company is to survive they can't just continue to do business as usual. To many companies out there fail to realize that simple idiom.
__________________

__________________
AIR 12256
Currently Looking
2001 Dodge Ram 1500
2001 Honda XR650R
Currently Looking...for an Avion Truck Camper (or a Classic Argosy MoHo)

"In regione caecorum rex est luscus." GP
GreatPumpkin is offline  
Old 11-20-2008, 11:44 AM   #100
Rivet Master
 
mutcth's Avatar

 
2007 23' Safari SE
Central , Connecticut
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie View Post
A comm flight from the midwest to DC costs about $275 for coach. I am sure that even first class would have been far less than what each of them spent on the private corp jets. Funny, when my counterparts and I go places we take comm planes and/or we car pool. Guess these guys feel entitled or just really dumb.
I'm far from being at the point where I'd fly in a corporate jet. The only time I've flown first-class was for an interview for a government job (!) when I was just out of engineering school, and they had booked the flight for me.

But private aviation was made for this purpose - flying around CEOs of Fortune 500 corporations. They don't have the time to be milling around an airport or missing a connection. They do have a lot more on their plate than we do - I want them figuring out how to best survive this situation rather than waiting in line at the TSA checkpoint. At this rarified level, there are also security issues - after all, if you make this much money or are connected with laying that many people off, you'll have enemies.

I think there are points-back-home being scored by Congress attacking the private jet use. I'd guess an awful lot of them spend time using private aviation too. This is a distraction from the bigger issue - but many people understand distractions better...
__________________

__________________
mutcth is offline  
Old 11-20-2008, 12:15 PM   #101
Certifiable
 
mistral blue's Avatar
 
. , .
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,460
Overly simplistic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatPumpkin View Post
BTW - they've already been approved for a $25 billion loan. They now want an additional $25 billion! The first loan was supposed to be help for building more fuel effecient cars. Shouldn't a viable, realistic business plan have already been put in place to address that very issue? If a company is to survive they can't just continue to do business as usual. To many companies out there fail to realize that simple idiom.
Perhaps the auto companies should be allowed to use the $25b "fuel-efficiency" loan any way they see fit with a promise to refund it in short order, with interest. They would get the $$ they so desperately desire and a final opportunity to prove themselves (or hang themselves once and for all ).
__________________
"IT'S A MAGICAL WORLD, HOBBES, OL' BUDDY... LET'S GO EXPLORING!" ~ CALVIN
mistral blue is offline  
Old 11-20-2008, 01:01 PM   #102
Rivet Master
 
Gene's Avatar
 
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction , Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,842
Quote:
Originally Posted by mistral blue View Post
Perhaps the auto companies should be allowed to use the $25b "fuel-efficiency" loan any way they see fit with a promise to refund it in short order, with interest. They would get the $$ they so desperately desire and a final opportunity to prove themselves (or hang themselves once and for all ).
That may be a compromise that would work. I think they have never gotten the $25 B fuel efficiency loan even though it was passed months ago—seems Treasury has been sitting on the thing for whatever reason. Perhaps a loan should be structured so that it can used to provide credit so people can buy their cars and speed up production of fuel efficient vehicles at the same time. Maybe they can put the corporate jets up for sale. I know that is a distraction, but then the execs can teleconference.

Gene
__________________
Gene is offline  
Old 11-20-2008, 01:50 PM   #103
Rivet Master
 
jimmini's Avatar

 
1989 29' Land Yacht
Mesa , Arizona
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,594
Images: 43
Where is UAW they are not doing much to save GM and there members jobs.If I was a UAW member I would be out there raising hell with the union to help save GM.Not looking for a Government loan.
Dont forget thay make poor quality cars and that will not change.
So let them die.Someone will take their place and maybe just maybe run a better company and make better quality cars.Someone has to make the cars to fill the market so all the jobs will not be lost.
__________________
Jimmini :
AKA : TUMBLEWEED. Just an old buzzard with a itch to yonder.
Cowboys have a way of looking at things a little differently than most folks.Their wisdom is simple and more down to earth.
jimmini is offline  
Old 11-20-2008, 02:20 PM   #104
Rivet Master
 
Gene's Avatar
 
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction , Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,842
I was reading a NY Times column from last week (Nov. 12) by Thomas Freidman while on the treadmill. We get the Times about 5 or 6 days late since they haven't mastered the US mail yet. Even though we have broadband here, mail is an issue. But I digress. I think this column sums up a lot of my issues with this whole thing. As I write I hear on CNN Congressional leaders are asking the Big 2.5 to come back Dec. 2 with a detailed concrete plan and they'll look at it again.

Gene

Here 'tis:


Last September, I was in a hotel room watching CNBC early one morning. They were interviewing Bob Nardelli, the C.E.O. of Chrysler, and he was explaining why the auto industry, at that time, needed $25 billion in loan guarantees. It wasn’t a bailout, he said. It was a way to enable the car companies to retool for innovation. I could not help but shout back at the TV screen: “We have to subsidize Detroit so that it will innovate? What business were you people in other than innovation?” If we give you another $25 billion, will you also do accounting?

How could these companies be so bad for so long? Clearly the combination of a very un-innovative business culture, visionless management and overly generous labor contracts explains a lot of it. It led to a situation whereby General Motors could make money only by selling big, gas-guzzling S.U.V.’s and trucks. Therefore, instead of focusing on making money by innovating around fuel efficiency, productivity and design, G.M. threw way too much energy into lobbying and maneuvering to protect its gas guzzlers.

This included striking special deals with Congress that allowed the Detroit automakers to count the mileage of gas guzzlers as being more than they really were — provided they made some cars flex-fuel capable for ethanol. It included special offers of $1.99-a-gallon gasoline for a year to any customer who purchased a gas guzzler. And it included endless lobbying to block Congress from raising the miles-per-gallon requirements. The result was an industry that became brain dead.

Nothing typified this more than statements like those of Bob Lutz, G.M.’s vice chairman. He has been quoted as saying that hybrids like the Toyota Prius “make no economic sense.” And, in February, D Magazine of Dallas quoted him as saying that global warming “is a total crock of [expletive].”

These are the guys taxpayers are being asked to bail out.

And please, spare me the alligator tears about G.M.’s health care costs. Sure, they are outrageous. “But then why did G.M. refuse to lift a finger to support a national health care program when Hillary Clinton was pushing for it?” asks Dan Becker, a top environmental lobbyist.

Not every automaker is at death’s door. Look at this article that ran two weeks ago on autochannel.com: “ALLISTON, Ontario, Canada — Honda of Canada Mfg. officially opened its newest investment in Canada — a state-of-the art $154 million engine plant. The new facility will produce 200,000 fuel-efficient four-cylinder engines annually for Civic production in response to growing North American demand for vehicles that provide excellent fuel economy.”

The blame for this travesty not only belongs to the auto executives, but must be shared equally with the entire Michigan delegation in the House and Senate, virtually all of whom, year after year, voted however the Detroit automakers and unions instructed them to vote. That shielded General Motors, Ford and Chrysler from environmental concerns, mileage concerns and the full impact of global competition that could have forced Detroit to adapt long ago.

Indeed, if and when they do have to bury Detroit, I hope that all the current and past representatives and senators from Michigan have to serve as pallbearers. And no one has earned the “honor” of chief pallbearer more than the Michigan Representative John Dingell, the chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee who is more responsible for protecting Detroit to death than any single legislator.

O.K., now that I have all that off my chest, what do we do? I am as terrified as anyone of the domino effect on industry and workers if G.M. were to collapse. But if we are going to use taxpayer money to rescue Detroit, then it should be done along the lines proposed in The Wall Street Journal on Monday by Paul Ingrassia, a former Detroit bureau chief for that paper.

“In return for any direct government aid,” he wrote, “the board and the management [of G.M.] should go. Shareholders should lose their paltry remaining equity. And a government-appointed receiver — someone hard-nosed and nonpolitical — should have broad power to revamp G.M. with a viable business plan and return it to a private operation as soon as possible. That will mean tearing up existing contracts with unions, dealers and suppliers, closing some operations and selling others and downsizing the company ... Giving G.M. a blank check — which the company and the United Auto Workers union badly want, and which Washington will be tempted to grant — would be an enormous mistake.”

I would add other conditions: Any car company that gets taxpayer money must demonstrate a plan for transforming every vehicle in its fleet to a hybrid-electric engine with flex-fuel capability, so its entire fleet can also run on next generation cellulosic ethanol.

Lastly, somebody ought to call Steve Jobs, who doesn’t need to be bribed to do innovation, and ask him if he’d like to do national service and run a car company for a year. I’d bet it wouldn’t take him much longer than that to come up with the G.M. iCar.
__________________
Gene is offline  
Old 11-20-2008, 03:23 PM   #105
Rivet Master
 
purman's Avatar
 
1968 28' Ambassador
Cedaredge , Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,542
Look,,, I stand by what I said on another Thread,,,, American car companies make JUNK,,,, And now Toyota, and Honda are following in there wake since they have been built here....

Look,,, Reliability aside.... There all just plastic on the inside. and now my Toyota is too.... I think Toyota and Honda said "boy those americans will buy crap so we can lower our standards and still sell cars....

My 1989 Jaguar is 100 times nicer on the inside than a new Cadillac.. For one there is no fake plastic wood.... REAL... Power everything and I mean everything... And this is a 1989 remember... what were Cadillac in 1989 (BOATS) Rides nicer and can go around a conner without putting you in the ditch... It has handling...

Americans make great cars for going in a straight line... And sucking down the gas.... (till a few years ago, they got a bit better))

And then there is these huge 3/4 ton trucks...???????? OK we here use them for towing but 99% of them are people just driving them around.... Man you need to see the back doctor after being in one...... and go on a curvy road,,, NO THANKS....

Drive a BMW, MERCEDES, AUDI, SABB, and you will see what the quality difference is...

There is just no comparison.... NONE>> and they don't cost any more than the big 3 high end cars and trucks...

But I don't believe it's all the Big 3 fault....

WE bought the crap in the first place, and kept on doing it... So now other companies like Toyota and Honda have lowered there standards.. to follow suite....

So you may think I'm WRONG.... Well I'm sorry to say I'm not.... If you have spent any time in Europe and driven there cars you would now...

Problem is,,, Americans think we are it!!!! well were not....... and we don't make that great of stuff anymore.....


We sit here in our big country thinking we are the best at everything... WRONG>>>

We are 10 years behind Europe in Cell phone technology... to start with...

Now The big 3 need a wake up and I hope the GOV.. Doesn't give them free money, It doesn't look like they will.....

And it's not a matter of national security... DOOM SAYERS Come on .....


Bottom line... They made JUNK, we put up with it and bought it.... They are just starting to come around but it's just too late...

They shouldn't have gone around buying foreign car companies,, that money should have been spent on the own development.... BUT,,,

Being American like the rest of us they had to have it all..... so lets buy all the other car companies.... It's the American way....

And "GENE" NICELY SAID>>>>>>>>>>>

So all you american auto lovers, get over it.... you build rubbish and it will pile up and start to stink after a while... Just took 50 years...

I would like to keep my money, , let them sort themselves out, or another company that knows how to do it right.... Because they don't....


Sorry to be blunt, But this is getting old, and this is the way it is....
__________________
Jason

May you have at least one sunny day, and a soft chair to sit in..

2008 5.7 L V8 Sequoia
AIR # 31243
WBCCI # 6987
FOUR CORNERS UNIT
purman is offline  
Old 11-20-2008, 03:30 PM   #106
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
We like our 2000 Expedition, never gave us any problems. I think it's nice. And our 2007 Suburban it too is very nice and rides very comfortably and it handles exceptionally well. I can't imagine what would make them rate comparatively as junk. But if so, then I guess we are just a couple of junkies from Michigan who bought a bunch of crap because we love to pull our crappy trailers.

Yes but the more important question here is... do you use Grey Poupon? Puleez.
__________________
wheel interested is offline  
Old 11-20-2008, 03:43 PM   #107
Rivet Master
 
GreatPumpkin's Avatar
 
Currently Looking...
Colville , Washington
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,033
Images: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
That may be a compromise that would work. I think they have never gotten the $25 B fuel efficiency loan even though it was passed months ago—seems Treasury has been sitting on the thing for whatever reason. Perhaps a loan should be structured so that it can used to provide credit so people can buy their cars and speed up production of fuel efficient vehicles at the same time. Maybe they can put the corporate jets up for sale. I know that is a distraction, but then the execs can teleconference.

Gene
Actually they want permission to use that $25 billion as they see fit AND the additional $25 billion "loan" they're asking for. The word "loan" being in quotes, because if they have no way to repay it, it's not really a loan is it?
__________________
AIR 12256
Currently Looking
2001 Dodge Ram 1500
2001 Honda XR650R
Currently Looking...for an Avion Truck Camper (or a Classic Argosy MoHo)

"In regione caecorum rex est luscus." GP
GreatPumpkin is offline  
Old 11-20-2008, 04:11 PM   #108
Just an old timer...
 
85MH325's Avatar

 
Tipton , Iowa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,031
Images: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by purman View Post
My 1989 Jaguar is 100 times nicer on the inside than a new Cadillac.. For one there is no fake plastic wood.... REAL... Power everything and I mean everything... And this is a 1989 remember...
Hmmm... and electrics by Lucas were good? Ever drive an MGB? Your Jag likely has Bosch electrics... if they're the same Bosch electrics that were featured in my four Volvos in the '80s, they weren't anything to write home about either.

I remember the original 1973 Honda Civics. As a matter of fact I drove a Honda N600 and then later the Z600. I've owned and driven American iron from the '70s, euro-cars Opels, Fiats, & Volvos... and all manner of modern conveyances from the Big Three, Honda, Nissan and Toyota over the years.

They've all had clunkers, and they've all had winners in the past twenty years or so. None of them were exceptional across their lines, neither were they horrible across their lines. It's unreasonable to characterize an entire brand as junk (except perhaps for Yugo) nor is it reasonable to say that a manufacturer's entire line is stellar (although Honda is probably closest to a home run there...)

IMHO, the Big Three are in the trouble they are because of greed, pure and simple. Greed on the part of union management. Greed on the part of the companies' management. Greed on the part of shareholders. Greed on the part of lenders. Greed on the part of the oil companies. Together they have managed to kill mass transit in our country. Passenger rail is almost dead. Resurrecting public transport is excruciatingly expensive, causing further dependence on autos and oil for personal transport. Big industry "plants" in the highest levels of government have overseen the systematic dismantling of environmental protections, killed innovation in alternative fuels and energy, and done their best to kill mass transit, all in the name of the auto manufacturers and oil industries, all for the expressed purpose of supporting the price per share for the stockholders of the corporations, unreasonably high wages and benefits for the workers, and outrageous compensation packages for CEOs, CFOs and other top-level managers. And we're just as at-fault because we've let those folks dictate our transportation system for fifty years, rather than taking a stand that we need to do what's right... not necessarily what's convenient.

We are now at a juncture where the house of cards we've allowed government and industry to build is wavering in the wind... and the next breeze will take it down, and our economy with it.

No one knows quite what will "fix" the problem, and the truth is, there isn't a single fix. We didn't get here overnight, and we're not going to "fix" it overnight. We need to look at the basics of what we need, and figure out how much to spend and where to spend it to move us back on track for useful, affordable, safe, reliable transportation for the masses in whatever form that takes, and the personal automobile and ever-expanding network of public highways may not be that form any longer in the U.S.

It'll be years before we see this shake out, but overly simplistic, single-solution proposals aren't going to fix our problems.
__________________
AIR 2053 Current: 2006 Born Free 32 RQ Kodiak Chassis, & 1995 Coachmen B-van
Former Airstreams: 1953 Flying Cloud, 1957 Overlander, 1961 Bambi, 1970 Safari Special, 1978 Argosy Minuet, 1985 325 Moho, 1994 Limited 34' Two-door, 1994 B190 "B-Van"
85MH325 is offline  
Old 11-20-2008, 04:12 PM   #109
Liquid Cooled
 
RedSHED's Avatar
 
2014 16' Sport
Columbus , Indiana
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 485
Images: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by purman View Post
Look,,, I stand by what I said on another Thread,,,, American car companies make JUNK,,,, And now Toyota, and Honda are following in there wake since they have been built here....
...

Drive a BMW, MERCEDES, AUDI, SABB, and you will see what the quality difference is...

....
The grammar, capitalization, and punctuation compel me to ask if this was tongue in cheek perhaps?

It's worth noting that up until about a year ago Chrysler was owned by Daimler (the Mercedes people) and their current product portfolio is a direct result of the whims of their Stuttgart overlords. During the first 3-4 years of ownership, as I recall, it was Chrysler that kept Mercedes afloat.

Saab (or SAAB) is wholly owned by GM and has been since the late 1990's. I believe the current 2.0L i4 that proliferates around the General's product lines (Opel, Vauxhall, Saturn, Chevy, Pontiac) had its origins in Trollhatten.

BMW has other issues, not the least of which is the perennial porcupine joke.
__________________
RedSHED is offline  
Old 11-20-2008, 04:14 PM   #110
Liquid Cooled
 
RedSHED's Avatar
 
2014 16' Sport
Columbus , Indiana
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 485
Images: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by 85MH325 View Post
Hmmm... and electrics by Lucas were good? Ever drive an MGB? Your Jag likely has Bosch electrics... if they're the same Bosch electrics that were featured in my four Volvos in the '80s, they weren't anything to write home about either.
....
(slightly OT, for which I apologize)
Ah yes, Stan, the Prince of Darkness. AKA the chief engineer for Lucas.

[Edit, and back on topic: Don't forget greed on the part of the consumer who demanded a big return on their IRA and who also demanded cheap fuel. Had fuel stayed at $2 this past summer, there'd be less of an auto crisis now. We probably should have been complaining about that years ago. Why should the home team in the world's largest auto market produce fuel efficient vehicles when SUV's and trucks are more profitable and the electorate has no stomach to make it otherwise? All of the companies that are doing well this year (or at least less poorly) are based in countries where fuel is expensive. This is not a coincidence. I hate that it's so, and I really wish that it wasn't. But I really do think it is so, regardless of my feelings in the matter. ]
__________________
RedSHED is offline  
Old 11-20-2008, 04:17 PM   #111
Rivet Master
 
jimmini's Avatar

 
1989 29' Land Yacht
Mesa , Arizona
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,594
Images: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
We like our 2000 Expedition, never gave us any problems. I think it's nice. And our 2007 Suburban it too is very nice and rides very comfortably and it handles exceptionally well. I can't imagine what would make them rate comparatively as junk. But if so, then I guess we are just a couple of junkies from Michigan who bought a bunch of crap because we love to pull our crappy trailers.

Yes but the more important question here is... do you use Grey Poupon?
My 2000 V10 Excursion pulls my Airstream grate if you can keep the spark plug from blowing out and the last of the electric door locks has quit,the tail gate will not lock electricaly or with a key.We now have 51,125 miles on it since we only use it to pull our Airstream with it. Just hoping it does not die before I do.It just all the little stuff you have to keep fixing because it plastic junk poorley put together.We will not even talk about are GMC Van with 125000+ miles it is a real sad junker.Never towed one thing yet has had 3 transmistions and one flat cam replaced.
The front door systems have worn out and been replaced and the door handles keep braking.
Let the big 3 die someone will pick up where they left off.They might be better if we luck out.
__________________
Jimmini :
AKA : TUMBLEWEED. Just an old buzzard with a itch to yonder.
Cowboys have a way of looking at things a little differently than most folks.Their wisdom is simple and more down to earth.
jimmini is offline  
Old 11-20-2008, 04:33 PM   #112
Just an old timer...
 
85MH325's Avatar

 
Tipton , Iowa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,031
Images: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSHED View Post
[Edit, and back on topic: Don't forget greed on the part of the consumer who demanded a big return on their IRA and who also demanded cheap fuel.

Yep. We're just as culpable. (I had edited my original post about the same time you edited this one...) we wanted personal convenience at low cost to us. That's fine as long as we can afford it. Unfortunately we haven't built anything to use in the place of personal convenience at low cost now that we can't afford it any more.

Roger
__________________

__________________
AIR 2053 Current: 2006 Born Free 32 RQ Kodiak Chassis, & 1995 Coachmen B-van
Former Airstreams: 1953 Flying Cloud, 1957 Overlander, 1961 Bambi, 1970 Safari Special, 1978 Argosy Minuet, 1985 325 Moho, 1994 Limited 34' Two-door, 1994 B190 "B-Van"
85MH325 is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
70's era Metal Ceiling Specs and R & R (Remove & Replace) Facts Distantdrummer General Interior Topics 3 06-22-2008 04:04 PM
The Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest 85MH325 Off Topic Forum 0 03-23-2006 07:24 AM
Univolt FACTS smily Electrical - Systems, Generators, Batteries & Solar 69 08-19-2005 12:47 AM
Interesting facts excelladep Our Community 8 06-08-2002 10:11 PM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.