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Old 11-19-2008, 08:10 AM   #57
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Caught this one on line too, each time I read something there are more folks involved:

Consumers to suffer if GM goes under - Nov. 19, 2008

Hey let's not forget decreased car sales may also equal decreased travel, which is already happening now without any of the big 2.5 going into bankruptcy or simply closing their doors. That decreased travel would also translate into less fuel taxes which feed the highway maint funds....so the Interstates would also continue to deteriorate further with more projects pushed even further out, putting travelers at further risks.

Gene again posted about what the ancillary costs would be to the taxing public should even one domestic automaker file or close. One thing that has also been pointed out and has not been discussed is the fact that the federal government is in essence broke and in a major deficit. Any addition demand on funding, like double digit unemployment, pension obligations, medicare/medicaid will significantly increase our deficit spending, which we will pay interest on to the likes of the Chinese, which will in fact cost us significantly more than 100 billion when it's all said and done. Even if loaning the money doesn't work, we're not that much worse off for trying. Also, of the 25 billion being asked for, this is not on top of the 700 billion our politicans already authorized. The big 2.5 are only asking for part of the massive cash infusions already on the books. If you feel as I did originally that the 700 billion bailout package was a bad idea, next voting season, it may be time to vote all the current regime out of office.

Oh and Roger (85MH325), you and I would both be remiss if we didn't also point out that your Big Foot SOB is on a monster Ford chassis.

Keeping this RV and Airstream related to a certain extent......

Anyone know how many MoHos are on foreign chassis? Clearly the chassis that on on any of the big 2.5s will have issues with parts and such, but I also wonder if some of the real luxo MoHo with the Freightliner chassis, etc will also take a hit. This could also significantly further add insult to injury to the RV sector. This could also mean that Thor, who builds busses too and has good cash resevers with little to no debt could also be in a pickle should chassis manufacs (big 2.5 freightliner, etc) have issues getting parts as has been suggested in the linked articles. This in turn could impact Airstream and other divisions of Thor. Winnebego, Fleetwood, who are in worse shape, I shudder of what could happen to them and other major MoHo builders, thus adding to the deficits through unemployment, pensions, etc the feds (meaning you and me) would have to pickup.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:32 AM   #58
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Unhappy Debt

If you consider government debt, federal, state, county, and city each of us - every US citizen - owes about 1/2 million $$$. That's not including personal debt. The feds have even spent the Social Security funds leaving a bunch of IOU's. Not only are we broke - we have amassed a debt beyond our ability to ever pay it back. Our smoking printing presses can barely keep up with the cash flow of interest rate payments.

The only way for the big three to become competitive is for the fed's to assume the costs of labor's retirement and medical benefit programs
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:36 AM   #59
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Nascar

Of course there is this - If the big three go under, just think about all the cool NASCAR stuff that will be on EBAY. What you think a Bush car would bring?
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:48 AM   #60
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For all those that think the big 3 should file bankruptcy...different than companies that have the capitol to carry on throughout the bankruptcy and restructure...they say that it would effect evryone across the country even the globe. Now I have heard that so many times that 1 in 10 jobs across America would be affected and that is just the beginning. It would have a domino effect on other business and workers.

I really don't think government would give it a second thought if it were not so. I also don't think they will be handing over money without getting heavily involved in how it is used.

Anyone read Tobacco Road? I have just started it last night. Written in 1932 and almost erie in correlation as it starts out.

59 Billion missing from HUD
1.1 Trillion unaccounted for at the Department of Defence
9 Billion unaccounted for in Iraq.... and the list goes on.
I wouldn't trust the government with my sons lunch money.

Maybe if we had given large loans to the buggy makers when cars were first introduced we wouldn't be in this mess and we could have kept all their workers employed. . Any loans to the big three just postpones the inevetiable. Let them file banrupsy. Remember GM was the company the virtually killed the trolley system in this country and their own electric car as well. Idiots in search of profit.
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Old 11-19-2008, 10:26 AM   #61
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Surprise totota wants a bail out

SURPRISE TOTOTA WANTS A BAIL OUT......

Surprise: Japanese, Korean Carmakers Want a Detroit Bailout - BusinessWeek
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Old 11-19-2008, 10:40 AM   #62
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One way to spread the cost of health care so that it hits every auto manufacturer proportionately—that is Toyota, Honda, and the rest of those manufacturers—is a single payer system. Then the Big 2.5 are paying no more than anyone else through a taxing system.

I know the health insurance industry has been telling us for years Canada has a horrible system, but if you had to deal with the health insurers with their massive bureaucracy and their lies about coverage, why should you believe them about anything? In our many trips to Canada I've never found anyone who would trade their system for ours. Sure it has some problems, what human endeavor doesn't? But compare theirs, or other industrialized countries' systems, to ours. I know the government can really screw things up—especially in the past 8 years—but it doesn't have to be so. For most of its history Medicare was an extremely efficient and cheap to administer program. That has been screwed up too, but can be changed. Certainly the health insurers have screwed up coverage plus 45,000,000 people don't have any insurance and tens of millions more have bad insurance.

The insurance mess allows foreign companies to produce vehicles cheaper by locating in the South where wages are low, unions weak, and other requirements are scanty. The South is the poorest part of the country, so why not take more advantage of the people there? They're happy to have jobs that pay a little better than other jobs there. The eventual result is that wages slip elsewhere in other parts of the country and Americans get less money and less health insurance. If this keeps up, Japan and western Europe will be the richest countries on the planet, not us. Of course, they have the same pressures from the BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India, China) countries whose low wages and lack of decent health coverage make for cheap production. There are solutions to that, but they aren't easy—perhaps all the industrialized countries require certain import controls tied to treating labor well.

Another part of the problem for the auto companies is the lack of credit. People who want to buy cars can't because they can't get credit. Some of them don't deserve credit, but many do. The idea of the $700 B was to provide cash to allow lending to start again, but the banks who have received the money aren't lending, they are either keeping it on the books out of fear or buying other banks. Paulson is encouraging them to buy other banks, but not to lend. Paulson's efforts have been counter to what he told Congress and slow and generally pathetic.

There are many parts to the crisis in the Big 2.5 (by .5 I mean Chrysler) and all parts need to be solved to allow them to thrive. Changing hidebound companies is not easy and even if the leaders of these companies were trying, middle management can screw it up by inaction. Putting Joe Nardelli in at Chrysler amazed me—he was driving Home Depot into the ground and gave Lowe's a big boost by doing such a good job of driving customers away from Home Depot.

There are no solutions to this that don't have ugly parts to them, but we have to swallow hard and get going.

Gene
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:03 AM   #63
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It's already hit my area every GM plant or Delphi Plant Is closed or will be by the End of Dec. Most of the buildings are already torn down. Every plant that was even remotely associate wiff GM is closed also.
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Old 11-19-2008, 01:32 PM   #64
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It's already hit my area every GM plant or Delphi Plant Is closed or will be by the End of Dec. Most of the buildings are already torn down. Every plant that was even remotely associate wiff GM is closed also.
Roger, I don't know what part of Ohio you live in—what big city is nearby? What has been the economic effect in your area of all these closings? What do the former auto workers do now?

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Old 11-19-2008, 01:44 PM   #65
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You gotta love it! They are showing on CNN the CEO'S of the big three asking for money. A senator pointed that all three flew on separate private jets at 20,000$ instead of buying a 500$ commercial plane ticket! I bet they won't go have a Big Mac for lunch either.

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Old 11-19-2008, 02:33 PM   #66
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A quick scan of the thread, some very valid aruguments for, against, what happens if we do/don't...

I spent 20+ years in automotive manufacturing as a supplier to the big 2.5 and I am sure the ones that are sweating this 'bailout' decision the most are the suppliers. At any given time they are net 45+- days on the receivables and use this to finance their operating loans. Most of the custom tooling built for these programs is financed by the supplier... A big 2.5 bankrupture would effectively wipe all of that out. As tight as credit is, this will be the death bell for a huge percent of the few remaining small to mid size manufacturing companies.
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Old 11-19-2008, 02:36 PM   #67
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This is serious

I'm lucky! I'm old, retired, and live in a 55+ trailer park. So I sorta live in a bubble and have not yet really felt the impact of this financial meltdown.

Yet, I know that our Airstream community has members that we know, if not personally, through the forum that are being devastated.

So, if you read a post that tries to make light of all of this confusion and hardship and blame - remember that some of our friends, neighbors, and associates are suffering at no fault of their own.

If the economy starts to turn around tomorrow it will leave 100s of thousands destroyed in it's wake. Be generous through your church and community to help those that deserve.
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Old 11-19-2008, 02:46 PM   #68
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You gotta love it! They are showing on CNN the CEO'S of the big three asking for money. A senator pointed that all three flew on separate private jets at 20,000$ instead of buying a 500$ commercial plane ticket! I bet they won't go have a Big Mac for lunch either.

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I worked in the auto industry and often flew on one of these corporate executive jets. In those days a short trip only cost $5,000 or so as I recall.

These planes were also a very practical way to get your kid home from college for the weekend, or to transport your mistress to a sporting event sponsored by the company.

No Big Macs, but we could eat a 5 course lunch in the management dining room, complete with linen napkins, sterling silverware and crystal, which set us back $2.10 through payroll deduction.

I never could quite finish the hot fudge sundae for desert though.
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Old 11-19-2008, 02:46 PM   #69
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Those suppliers may also supply the foreign manufacturers, but if they have to close their doors, who's going to supply the foreign companies? The answer—other foreign companies. One of the guys in the service dept at my local Toyota dealer said the problems with Toyotas these days—yes, there are more problems than years ago when all the Toyotas were made in Japan—is the parts supplied by American suppliers. I'm sure Toyota and others would love to dump American suppliers. They have used them to quiet American complaints that everything is shipped from out of the country. This whole thing is sad—American suppliers can't meet the standards of Japan.

I also note that the senators most against helping the Big 2.5 are from southern states with foreign manufacturers. Interesting.

Gene
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Old 11-19-2008, 03:17 PM   #70
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Ok, not that I feel that the over industry is bad, but none of these companies need money do they....I thought they all were a lot better off than the domestics..... if they are, then this is somewhat obnoxious. Now I will agree that if any of the big three close or file, it will make it very hard on the other foreign owned, domestically made automakers, but we haven't even gotten to that point....at least yet!

Tell Toyota to let the Japanese government bail them out.
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