GM facts and fiction

[overlander63]

The Bob Rivers Show Audio Player

[Gene]

Here's another thing about Chapter 11 bankruptcy, a/k/a, debtor in possession. In normal times, once a company files under Ch. 11, it is considered a good risk for loans because it has less debt than before. The bankruptcy judge can manage the process to make sure there isn't a default on the new debt. But, now companies can't get post Ch. 11 loans. Marvyn's and Linens 'n' Things have had to liquidate because they couldn't get new money. Circuit City may have to liquidate too. It would be difficult to get financing, especially of such scope for the auto companies in the present financial climate. If the companies had no choice but to file under Ch. 11, it could cause a race to the courthouse. Since post bankruptcy filing money is scarce, the first company to file may get enough to survive, the 2nd and 3rd may not get any and have to liquidate. The irony is that the healthiest company may be the one that is least likely to survive.

So, why can't the feds lend them money after filing Ch. 11? Bankruptcy looks so bad to the (un)buying public that much damage would be done. Would suppliers who are owed money get payments in time before they went under? Coordinating this could take a lot of time, compounding the damage.

I suppose the companies could look into some state common law remedies that resemble bankruptcy, but may not have that toxic name. Though such remedies may survive in some states, nobody uses them because the federal remedy works better.

And, 'hawk, you are indeed fortunate to be married to a lawyer, and if I didn't have to do stuff to get ready for T'giving, I'd explain why in 1,000 words or more.

Gene

[Larry in MO]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

Since post bankruptcy filing money is scarce, the first company to file may get enough to survive, the 2nd and 3rd may not get any and have to liquidate.

This may sound odd, Gene, but I agree with you. Easy big fella. The way I have it figured is that Ford has cash and can make it if they hold on. This won't last forever. My top bet is $3, however.

Chrysler is probably dead in the water but has the capability of in house financing. GM, on the other hand, will probably attract financial suitors for chump change, will shuck off the unions, and renegotiate new contracts w/ vendors. The vendors will have to go along to get along. The problem might be that the man w/ the cash is from Toyota or Honda. GM is leaner, meaner, and owned by foreign interests.

Wanna go ahead and get started w/ the new thread? It will involve the people that discover that bankruptcy is Federal relief so even if the people that don't want the fed involved they will find that they will be one way or the other. Loans, bailouts, bankruptcy--all Federal relief.

You're welcome!

[Jaxon]

Originally Posted by 66Overlander

And while I am at it, here is another recent intertesting commentary, that like the others, says things more eloquently than I ever could:

Gotta love the competition in capitalism. Maybe we need to follow our own advice.

[Ray Eklund]

Nobody has brought up Stanley Steamer, the 1914 Electric Car or Horse Drawn Buggy industries, household kerosene lanterns, natural rubber tires, buffalo robes, beaver hats, etc., etc.. The government did not step in to help and look what happened to them... With the Feds help and money at the time, these businesses could have hired thousands of new employees, supported the horse industry, the satellite suppliers of rubber buggy wheels and the sanitation crews of all major US cities.

Change is going to be painful for many but what arises from the ruin will benefit many, probably lawyers. Following history, which to most people is 50 years and history quits, there are numerous examples of major industries that fell into turmoil and now it is the automobile industry. Too many new vehicles, too many used vehicles... Something had to give and the solution will take care of itself without the meddling of the tax dollars of every citizen of the USA.

[HiHoAgRV]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

... Would suppliers who are owed money get payments in time before they went under? Coordinating this could take a lot of time, compounding the damage....Gene

The Big 3 coordinate this through ouside speciality companies that manage the closing of 'troubled' suppliers. I've dealt with them in my past - they have 1 goal, go into the supplier that is dying, move equipment and materials to another supplier while keeping the production going. No mercy, move on to the next one.

FYI, the schedule daily conference calls at 12:00 noon and they last for at least 1.5 hours. If your trying as hard as you say you are, you have no time for lunch

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by 85MH325
We need to look at more elegant solutions to moving goods, services, and people than using 5,000 lb cars to move a person over some distance. There have got to be more efficient ways to do it that have a lower impact economically and environmentally. All I'm suggesting is that we redirect some of the money we're spending currently into more efficient modes of transport.
Roger

Originally Posted by Journalist

This coming from the guy who is towing a travel trailer with a motorhome. Hmmmm.... That's got to be the pinnacle of efficiency.
You're right, there are much more efficient ways to travel and, since this is a website dedicated to campers, to go camping. Problem is, Americans don't want to give up their large vehicles for a teenie little econobox for the same reason no one on here is willing to give up their Airstream for a tent. Are you willing to trade your rig for this?

Wow. I found this post buried on page 13 of this thread. I haven't checked in here since... oh... page 11 or so! Sorry my response is so late.

To answer your question, I actually have one of these that I've now owned and used since 1979, in addition to the many travel trailers and motorhomes I've owned and enjoyed over the years. I've hiked in and slept under the stars; I've used hammocks, tents, and all manner of travel trailers and now two motorhomes (one obviously, was an '85 325.)

The issue I raised though is not about recreational use of vehicles, but daily use. I'd be ashamed of myself if I used my 12mpg E450 chassis heavy one-ton dually to drive to the grocery store for a gallon of milk. I've driven the moho about 12k miles in the past two years, all of it highway, and all of it either vacationing or otherwise having need for the space or sleeping accomodations. But I drove my 18mpg '02 Tundra (again a work truck with tool box) about 10k miles just this year on short trips (I work about a half-mile from where I live) even when I didn't need the tools I carry which I came to recognize is just wrong. To that end, I began bicycle commuting this past Spring, and have put over a thousand miles on my bikes by the end of October, just doing my short daily commute, grocery shopping, and running those errands I can run on a bicycle.

And, actually Journalist, I chose an E450 moho as a tow vehicle specifically because of the efficiency it provides when towing the Bigfoot. Not only does it provide creature comforts unavailable when towing with a conventional pickup or SUV, it is actually quite efficient when towing a load. It has a GCVWR of 20,000 lbs, and I'm running about 4,000 lbs under that when loaded and towing. It doesn't work hard at all when towing the trailer, unlike the average 5.x liter V8s found in most half-ton pickups. I average about 12mpg towing with the Born Free, and it's an incredibly more competent tow vehicle than was my Y2K Excursion. Unlike a pickup pulling a flat-front trailer, because of it's relatively streamlined front end, and that the trailer's entire front end is in the slipstream of the moho, the moho only has to fight the wind resistance it offers. I'm also an admin at www.fiberglassrv.com, another Social Knowledge site for small, lightweight fiberglass trailers. I've had a ton of experience with them as well, and it's amazing that most folks who tow 2500 lb trailer with a 2 liter 4cyl engine also average about the same as I average with my combo when towing. So... 12mpg is 12mpg when towing regardless of what the tow vehicle looks like. Obviously, the savings with econoboxes comes when driving while NOT towing; in other words, daily driving.

Not only is the moho an efficient and comfortable tow vehicle, but I paid less than the average new pickup's sticker price for it. Waaaay less. And it only goes out when I have need for it; it doesn't go to the grocery store for a gallon of milk or to the hardware store for a $.50 part.

And, to further clarify, we have had (and continue to have) a parade of econoboxes over the years to boot, the last being our '06 Civic that my wife used to commute 40 miles a day each way. The two before that were a Nissan Altima (30mpg) and another '98 Civic 5spd. I, unfortunately have a job where I have to live in town which employs me. She, OTOH, is a professional whose employers that have need of her services reside mainly in larger cities.

I'm not bragging, I just wanted to put out there that my money is, in fact, where my mouth is on these issues.

Now here's something that ought to cause you to stop and take notice. According to 1world2wheels' statistics, 24% of all trips made are made within one mile of home. 40% of all trips made are within two miles of home, and 50% of the working population commutes five miles or less. So, my question remains, do we really need a 5,000 lb car to make most of these trips?

Those statistics show that mass transit could have the potential to eliminate some serious auto miles driven in the U.S. if we're willing to do that.

Roger

MY tent!:

[Road Ruler]

85M... I too liked the tenting and also bike a a lot. It is tough for the BH to understand. LOL

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by Road Ruler

85M... I too liked the tenting and also bike a a lot. It is tough for the BH to understand. LOL

I dunno, bro... that'd better be one h*ll of a bike... ti and CF frame and all XTR? That's pretty hard-core!

Roger

[53flyingcloud]

Originally Posted by mrmossyone

Did you hear what they said about how the other little econobox faired better than the smart car? Did you also hear them at the end when they said the smart car might have faired okay but the passengers certainly would not have. Also those were not true head on collisions both were from an angle to allow the car to carom off to the side. Can you imagine if there was another car hitting the smart car from behind. What if you were struck from the side with just that flemsy 3 or 4 inch door between you and whatever is hitting you. That car has a long way to go before I would consider it safe in comparison to larger cars. There simply isn't enough crush zone room to protect you from the energies being released.

You are right and, I apologies for using a video clip that was (unknown to me) over 2 yrs old..I should have checked it's date..Darn thing is still so new looking to me..
On that note, I did come across a video for a newer Smart car that was subjected to a broadside hit and, it remained intact~ I just wished I had thought to bookmarked it..
But, having said all that..it's out there for viewing..
ciao
53FC

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Road Ruler

85M... I too liked the tenting and also bike a a lot. It is tough for the BH to understand. LOL

Ruler, Canadians are different!. I guess a little later in the year, maybe August 15, you'd have a snowmobile in the tent instead.

Gene

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

Ruler, Canadians are different!. I guess a little later in the year, maybe August 15, you'd have a snowmobile in the tent instead.

Gene

LOL... No snowmobile here Gene, but we do ride the Mountain bikes all year round when the snow doesn't get too deep.

[purman]

Originally Posted by Road Ruler

85M... I too liked the tenting and also bike a a lot. It is tough for the BH to understand. LOL

It also better be full supension and give one nice ride
When I bought my new bike 3 years ago. Over $2,000 I had it in the bed when Michelle got home. Yeah that went over well

[toastie]

From the Detroit News "There isn't a Plan B"

DETROIT -- General Motors Corp.'s plan asks Congress for up to $18 billion in emergency financial aid and, in return, offers to eliminate 30,000 jobs, shutter nine plants, reopen the United Auto Workers contract and either shrink, sell or possibly kill three additional brands.
The cuts range from symbolic -- ending corporate jet travel --to substantial -- closing 1,750 dealerships -- and are aimed at transforming one of America's largest and most storied companies into a leaner, profitable and more competitive automaker. Executives say the moves would make GM a viable company and help it survive the lowest per-capita sales level since World War II.
Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson said the automaker cannot continue to fund its operations unless it receives $4 billion this month.

"There isn't a Plan B," he said.

"Absent such assistance, the company will default in the near term, very likely precipitating a total collapse of the domestic industry and its extensive supply chain, with a ripple effect that will have severe, long-term consequences to the U.S. economy," GM wrote in its report to Congress.

Does anybody want to call there bluff

GM plan calls for $18B in aid; Wagoner to take $1 salary | The Detroit News | detnews.com

[Silverwanabe]

Remember after 911,
the govt handed out huge amounts of money to the airline industry.

It's the same rationale...??

Long live GM.

[GreatPumpkin]

Originally Posted by toastie

Does anybody want to call there bluff

YES!

The guvmnt dun tol me der was no "plan b" for the financial industry either. If we didn't pass the $700 Billion bailout now!, America as we knew it would cease to exist. Well guess what... they passed it, and then just sat on the money hem-hawing about what to actually do with it. America still exists, in the same sorry economic shape we were in before it passed.

Guess what? We're in a recession, and we've actually been in one (US in recession since December 2007: official panel - Yahoo! News)since December of last year! Our guvmnt just now figurd dat out

Call their bluff and let the cards fall where they may...

[azflycaster]

I'm not sure where the above information came from, but this website: snopes.com: Automaker 9/11 Contributions paints a much different picture of the contributions made by many of the companies listed above.

[GreatPumpkin]

GM now want $18 Billion just for themselves. Plus they're going to dump 20,000 to 30,000 employees anyway...(Ford tells Congress it may be able to go it alone - Yahoo! News)

[66Overlander]

[on edit by moderators: quote removed of a previous and now deleted post]

I take serious offense at the content and tone of your message. You need to check your attitude before posting! You are dealing with hundreds of thousands if not millions of peoples livelihood, including mine. The current crisis affecting the entire worldwide auto industry was not directly caused by them, but government policies certainly contributed to the situation (as did some past poor decisions by the automakers themselves).

But as I have said before, you people far removed from the domestic auto industry have no idea what internal restructuring has been going on for years before this crisis (I do). The press is starting to finally recognize a little of what has gone on for years in terms of domestic restructuring. When will the rest of the public get a clue? When will they realize that this is about saving the US economy and manufacturing base, not specifically about saving automakers?

BUT BOTTOM LINE - If you speak out of ignorance and cannot be polite in your posts and cannot respect others feelings and the source of their livelihood, just stop posting to this thread. Thank you!

[Silvertwinkie]

If you think they ain't gonna get it, you got another think comin', even if it's $50 billion or more, they WILL get it. It matters not what you or I think......it's gonna happen plain and simple, like it or not, it IS going to happen, so we can cheer or cry in our beers, but it's gonna happen...period.

Congress folks have to showboat and all, but in the end it's all just grandstanding, they will cough up the cake, plain and simple.

Still think they won't get the loans or any money? I'll take that bet, wanna lay a gentleman's wager on it?

Nuff said.