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Old 11-22-2008, 01:28 PM   #183
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This coming from the guy who is towing a travel trailer with a motorhome. Hmmmm.... That's got to be the pinnacle of efficiency.
You're right, there are much more efficient ways to travel and, since this is a website dedicated to campers, to go camping. Problem is, Americans don't want to give up their large vehicles for a teenie little econobox for the same reason no one on here is willing to give up their Airstream for a tent. Are you willing to trade your rig for this?
Not for that but maybe for this
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Old 11-22-2008, 01:34 PM   #184
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Gene I'll have to get back to this, right now I'm laughing to hard.

"I think they need to be made without ideology."

Yeah that'll happen.
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Old 11-22-2008, 02:34 PM   #185
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"I think they need to be made without ideology."

Yeah that'll happen.
I agree that'll be difficult, but I surely would never get ideological, it's always the other guy.

I'm not sure whether you were laughing at the tents, but probably at my hopeful statement. I'm done with tents. The ground was much softer when I was young. First it was curl around the rocks, then a thin foam pad, then those pads that blow themselves up, then the air mattress, now the luxury trailer. Not ready for the hospital bed yet, but I guess it ends there. Wish I could have a private jet. There may be some available 2nd hand in Detroit soon.

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Old 11-22-2008, 02:58 PM   #186
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I am not shocked that some dont want to LOAN the auto companies money. Those mean spirited posts like the one from "Ganaraska" are hurtful. I am a union member, thats how I support my children, thats how I hope to send them to college so they can get a better education than I had. So someday my son could take advantage of his many talents. So what your saying is you just dont care that my ex wife will lose her home because I cant pay child support? and next year it will be forgotton?
What do you do for a living? if your going to attack others, put your rate of pay for us to see and evaluate. Ill tell you if your worth it. Where do you work? I would like to post sensless negative posts over the internet in high hopes I may ruin you financially!
Sorry but it union folk like you that are just PART of the problem.
Why is the UAW not out in front trying to save the company and their members job?The people that run the unions are just like the people that run the auto companies they only want to line their pocket and care not one bit about you,but they talked you into thinking they do.The heads of the unions and auto companies will all come out with your $$$$ in their pockes and will not need to work another day in their life when the ship sinks.But most of they X members will.Remember it is UAW members that help turn out the poor quality cars.
I was an A&P Aircraft Mechanic for 54 year.My first 7 years was at American Airlines under a union that did ME no good, not once.The rest of the years I never had a job that lasted over 7 years.But every job I had I made my owen deals to work.I never let a unionor or Government make deals for me.Never took 1 $ of unemployment.
I retired at 72 .I have my home,Airstream trailer,and cars paid for.I have had a good life and I have no one to blame for any thing in live but me not the Government ,not a union, only me.
Worst of all WHY am I even looking at or writting at this thread? What a waste of my time.
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Old 11-22-2008, 03:11 PM   #187
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GM and Ford can not make it with the contracts they agreed to over the years. Therefore they should go out of business so another company can make cars and trucks. As long as they were the big deal with little or no competition they could agree to anything amoungst themselves because Americans would pay what they had to for a car to get to work. One way or another those contracts will be voided and the guy on top with get a bonus. The Dem's know it has to be and that the UAW will be unhappy. They are all playing sudden death chicken hoping they get reelected, their executive bonus's and retirements, and the auto companies stay in business. It's always been in the interest of the executive types to agree to excessive pay and benefits because they always got more...... Therefore they should pay the price as well...
Have USA trucks, never will buy another USA designed or built car....

If you visit Europe and rent a car it will likly be a compact turbo diesel. In the ten years between my visits the exhaust of these has all but disappeared in most areas. Then there are the BMW's. How about a diesel Chrysler Caravan style van. The whole system that would get pushed needs a good push so vested interest in inferior invented here technology can be put in the dusk bin.
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Old 11-22-2008, 03:41 PM   #188
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Well, I have a rather novel solution to the problems of the big 3. The amount of money suggested to bail them out is HUGE! It amounts to several thousand dollars for every man woman and child in the US. What does the consumer get for this money. NOTHING!

Maybe, and I mean maybe the auto industry will survive with the bail out. Maybe not. We've already seen what the AIG execs did with the money. PARTY!!!

How about this. Instead of giving the money to the auto industry, Let's offer every American citizen several thousand dollars if they will buy a vehicle from one of the big 3. Well, maybe it should just be a US manufactured vehicle. No stipulations as to what type or brand. Just American made. Not assembled in Mexico, ect. JUST MADE IN AMERICA!!!

Benefits:
1. We each can buy a new vehicle.
2. The auto industry sells off existing inventory.
3. The workers have work to do building new vehicles for all of us.
4. Lots of older less fuel efficient vehicles are off the road.
5. Auto Manufacturers have to COMPETE to sell the vehicles.
6. The US economy is jump started!
7. Consumers find out that US built vehicles are built very well.
8. No tax payer money pays for any parties directly.
9. All of the infrastructures surrounding the industry are saved.

It's a win, win. If some of you who have no faith in American made vehicles don't want to buy one. You don't have to. You just don't get the money.
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Old 11-22-2008, 03:47 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by cooperhawk View Post

How about this. Instead of giving the money to the auto industry, Let's offer every American citizen several thousand dollars if they will buy a vehicle from one of the big 3. Well, maybe it should just be a US manufactured vehicle. No stipulations as to what type or brand. Just American made. Not assembled in Mexico, ect. JUST MADE IN AMERICA!!!
It's a win, win. If some of you who have no faith in American made vehicles don't want to buy one. You don't have to. You just don't get the money.
The dealers could treat it like a rebate, right off the price of the vehicle at the time of purchase, just like they do with factory rebates now.
It would be easy to tell American-made vehicles, their VINs start with "1".
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Old 11-22-2008, 03:48 PM   #190
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If you visit Europe and rent a car it will likly be a compact turbo diesel.
By the way. Our toad is a VW Jedda Turbo Diesel. 46 mpg. They are available in America after all.

You can blame the CAFE Standards for their non-existance in America. The US CAFE standards are the most restrictive in the world. Who do we blame for that. Try the Environmentalists! The biggest enemies America has ever had.

Okay, I am an environmentalist myself. But I am able to see the folly of the excessives that the likes of the Sierra Club and Earth First promote. Why do they get away with it. WE LET THEM! We even donate money to them. I have in the past, but no more. They have fallen over the precipice of bad judgement. Most view their crusade as a religeon! They have no touch with reality!
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Old 11-22-2008, 03:49 PM   #191
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......Never took 1 $ of unemployment.
I retired at 72 .I have my home,Airstream trailer,and cars paid for.I have had a good life and I have no one to blame for any thing in live but me not the Government ,not a union, only me.
Worst of all WHY am I even looking at or writting at this thread? What a waste of my time.
I am very impressed. You do quite well for having no pension , social security or helath care I assume. Bless you. I wish I was in such good shape.
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Old 11-22-2008, 04:25 PM   #192
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Well, I have a rather novel solution to the problems of the big 3. The amount of money suggested to bail them out is HUGE! It amounts to several thousand dollars for every man woman and child in the US.
If you divide 300,000,000 Americans into $25,000,000,000 the answer is $83.33 each. This won't pay for the title and dealer stuff they tack onto the price. It's the $700,000,000,000 bank bailout that is something over $2,000 per person.



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Old 11-22-2008, 04:30 PM   #193
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By the way. Our toad is a VW Jedda Turbo Diesel. 46 mpg. They are available in America after all.

You can blame the CAFE Standards for their non-existance in America. The US CAFE standards are the most restrictive in the world. Who do we blame for that. Try the Environmentalists! The biggest enemies America has ever had.

Okay, I am an environmentalist myself. But I am able to see the folly of the excessives that the likes of the Sierra Club and Earth First promote. Why do they get away with it. WE LET THEM! We even donate money to them. I have in the past, but no more. They have fallen over the precipice of bad judgement. Most view their crusade as a religeon! They have no touch with reality!
Point of detail, not to take away from the substance of the post, parts of which sound right to me and parts of which I may not agree. CAFE stands for "Corporate Average Fuel Economy" and has very little to do with emissions.
It is the combination of California emissions standards and (until recently) high sulfur diesel fuel that made certification here very difficult. This has changed somewhat since 2007 (ULSD). Certification is two parts: the amount, and the process of certification. US and California OBD are MUCH more difficult standards to meet (demonstration) than Euro, at least this is my understanding. That is, even when - on or about 2015 - the Euro and US emissions standards (in terms of what comes out of the tailpipe) are effectively the same, the certification process will still likely be more expensive here.
One "bailout" along those lines, would be to allow any manufacturer to replace one lost truck sale with a sub 3000 lb car that meets Euro emissions and NCAP 3 star standards. This would cost us essentially nothing, but allow the 3 to experiment and see what actually does sell. Since it would apply to all manufacturers, it could avoid tariff and WTO action as well.
Just a thought.
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Old 11-22-2008, 04:44 PM   #194
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Guys, we don't want to get the thread closed. Let's keep it on-topic, without hitting below the belt.
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Old 11-22-2008, 05:00 PM   #195
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For the last 30 years do you know what the life expectancy has been for a retired auto worker? 5 yrs. thats why the union fought for health insurance. The uaw did you no good perhaps, but you were not working in conditions to where the haze and oil were so bad nside the plants that you could barely see the other side of the factory.
I would like to post more, put more thought into my reply, but Iam going to see the orchestra tonight with my girlfriend who is a ceo of a company that makes surgical masks. She makes well over 350k a year, she just got a 60,000 dollar bonus. Her plant is non union. her employees do the 8.00 hr thing. She just bought a new car and yes it was American! and yes she is buying dinner!...lol

I will be back tomorrow. so until then...have a coke, and a smile!
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Old 11-22-2008, 05:23 PM   #196
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What about a different direction here. Do small cars kill? I burn more gas but drive fewer miles because of it. But I do feel more protected. Alot of that safety being built into the cars is heavy as well, as with side air bags, isn't it? But just having a big car it isn't going to crumple up as tight and small, is it? And there will be plenty of older vehicles still around to reak havoc, won't there. I drove a Geo once, rented it. I felt I was sitting on the ground. High speed driving and the interchanges and I felt more like a sitting duck in a little put-put.

About 50 percent of all occupant deaths occur in single-vehicle crashes. Extra mass in a car involved in a collision with a tree or a bridge abutment or a brick wall is incredibly protective. You find differences in survival rates between sub-compacts and large cars on the order of four times as great or eight times as great, a four to eight times DELETE 'THE' higher death rate in very small cars as in the larger cars. There is simply no question whatsoever that in single-vehicle crashes larger, heavier cars are safer.

The other half of all occupant deaths, however, occurs in multi-car collisions, largely in two-car collisions, and there the issue gets a little more complicated.

In multi-car collisions adding mass to your car protects you more but it does put the occupants of the other car at somewhat greater risk. And so the question is, what is the net effect?

When the two cars involved in that multi-car collision are pretty much identical, larger mass helps the occupants of both cars. When they're not identical but are still pretty similar to each other, adding mass to your car protects you. It tends to hurt the occupants of the other car, but its net effect overall is more protection, and so society benefits from added mass.
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