Global Geological Climate Change... Conference

[Ray Eklund]

I, as a run of the gold mill Geologist am a heretic in the Global Climate Change discussion. It is much like someone owning a Casita Trailer describing YOUR Airstream Trailer to someone who lives in a cave.

There are a couple of Western Adventures among the Black Hills and Wyoming that prove that Climate Change has always occurred and always will. It is just how this change is presented and what are the causes.

Our lifetimes are less than 100 years and I have personally witnessed our small twigs of a tree becoming 80 foot giants. Change, for sure. I have photographs of two seedlings transported to the front yard that are now 80 feet tall.

Now imagine a 20,000 foot tall mountain in the Appalachians... ground down to under 5,000 feet with the other debris becoming the East Coast. It takes time to do this. Not our lifetime or ten or a thousand... but much, much more. Can this be proven with a video or photographs... yes, if you understand cause and effects of time on solids.

When you travel from the East coast to the West coast, you actually are traveling through time. Evidence is actually right below your two feet, yet ignored and called scenery. The colors and textures and components of the rocks ARE Climate Change at its best. You just did not know. It is not taught in Business School or Law School or... for that fact, High School as well. No wonder we find ourselves so gullible.

The Earth at one time was had a Carbon Dioxide atmosphere. True, check it out.

When plants thrived to use CO2 and in the process of photosynthesis had a waste product Oxygen we benefited. Check out the Red Beds of the Permian/Triassic.

It is not all that confusing, unless you are selling something. Climate Change has existed and will continue with or without your participation. Life on this planet have come and gone multiple times. We see ourselves as the top of the life cycle today, yet the cockroach has existed much longer as it looks today. Flies, mosquitos, butterflies... birds... they all precede humans among the layers of rocks.

When you read about Climate Change or Global Warming... do some research yourself. Most people would not know that concrete is made from secretions from ocean sediments... probably 80% would not have a clue.

Science, Physics and Mathematics can be tested and shown to be true, or not. Opinions... well, are just that. My opinion is not worth any more or less than the next guy's opinion... but find yourself looking at layers of ocean sediments with sea shells on the tops of Mountains in the Rocky Mountains... it needs more explaining than this little tease I offer to you.

Be a critical thinker... not just a critic. Critics are cheap and everyone can be one.

[PaulnGina]

"It is not all that confusing, unless you are selling something. "

Well said. Thank you for that post.

PaulnGina

[dkottum]

My take is that you are right, there has always been climate change. And "they" are also right, we are really speeding it up.

[xrvr]

Disagree., we are not speeding it up. Time will tell when the facts come out.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by dkottum

My take is that you are right, there has always been climate change. And "they" are also right, we are really speeding it up.

Climate change is not just confined to the Earth. There is scientific evidence that Mars and Jupiter are also undergoing global warming— which humans haven't caused.

[polarlyse]

Yes. I agree. But we would have it we COULD have. Does that count ???

[KJRitchie]

Climate change is inevitable whether its accelerated by humans or not. We will just have to adjust. Over population is a bigger concern.

Kelvin

[BoldAdventure]

Originally Posted by KJRitchie

Climate change is inevitable whether its accelerated by humans or not. We will just have to adjust. Over population is a bigger concern.

Kelvin

Myth. The planet isn't over populated. I'm sure you've been out west. Our problem is resource management and getting along. We don't share and we don't play nice together and we have an even harder time working together to solve our problems.

So it's easier to just blame people making babies than actually solve the big issues.

Create something such as GMO's to solve crop issues and a large percentage of the population rises up to claim GMO's are the devil and organic is the only way.

Tell people that burning 100 million metric tons of CO2 is raising the global temperatures and they'll tell you that's a global left-wing conspiracy.

And it's always the other guys who are wrong.

[Ray Eklund]

Anyone sitting at home with the furnace running for heat... or the Air Conditioner for cooling is experiencing "Climate Change". This "Climate Change" in Texas and the entire Southwest is what made it possible for people to exist. Without Climate Change in Texas, they would be living in Fargo, North Dakota in the summers.

I remember when the Ice Caps were getting too heavy as a gullible kid in the 1950's. These were the experts reporting. An Atomic Bomb to break it up would prevent the planet from tipping its poles like Uranus.

"Plowshares" an anti nuclear for war group that wanted to use nuclear explosions to aid mankind, suggested blowing atomic weapons beneath the surface for Oil Exploration. I use to sell a lot a copies to Californians at Universities. The United States Atomic Agency had printed many of these over time. So...? Someone might be more up on this than I.

When your Age and IQ are the same in my case, I can depend on memories to balance out the new science.

I depend on rocks not to change any time in the near future. Geologists still debate if we are in an "inter glacial period" of the Pleistocene... or, in the Holocene Epoch that started when man began to become smarter than a rock that could be percussion flaked into a hand axe or a cutting blade.

There are so many kinds of Geologists, that some specialize just in one mineral... like Diamonds. There are lots of Climate Scientists. Most receive money from the public, who suffer the most from Climate. They seem to all agree that there is a climate. The rest is up for us to settle this once and for all and find this climate, bring it home and dissect it.

We are all made of Elements made within a Star. Not a Star made from the Elements. I can tell already than none of us can act or sing... so Stars we are not.

[ALANSD]

Great posts Ray, alias Dr. Bean. I discuss this with many lib friends who just don't get it.
Even a well vetted local Georgia Tech professor is anti climate change. What truly irks me is the focus on this that is given by our present government leadership, and the lack of attention given to the important issues like over spending, Islamic extremism and education, amongst others.
Keep up your informational advice.

[KJRitchie]

Originally Posted by BoldAdventure

Myth. The planet isn't over populated. I'm sure you've been out west. Our problem is resource management and getting along. We don't share and we don't play nice together and we have an even harder time working together to solve our problems.

If there is human contribution to climate change then population growth contributes; 7.4 billion and counting.

The west is more populated now than when I was your age.

Who is going to manage resources and force everyone to play nice? The UN, one world government? Lets enjoy our Airstreams while we can before we are told we are not sharing enough.

Kelvin

[bangzoom]

So Ray, are you not taking any responsibility for your greenhouse gas contribution or is it that you just don't care? Come on. You even implied yourself that you're now smarter than a rock. Maybe you're not leaving anyone behind----you know, like kids. I will not begin to reference the data or quote from its contributors as you appear to be well read. I will reference Red Green who summed it up nicely when he said: "We're all in this together".

[andreasduess]

To deny that there is a human made element in global warming is to deny that 2+2=4.

The data is unambiguous and clear, the only disagreements come from a very, very small minority, often paid for by industry lobbyists.

Oceans have already started rising, encroaching saltwater is threatening large parts of the Florida fresh water supply (if I'd own property in Florida it would be on the market today), water tables are sinking all over the US, (100 ft in the last three years in parts of Utah), aquifers are exhausted by continuous overuse.

The next big conflict won't be about oil. It will be about water.

[cameront120]

What's the point of this thread, other than to divide people? There's enough us vs. them around here.

[Aerowood]

The really sad part of the Climate Change debate is that it is now being politicized and is for sale to the highest bidder to suit their own political agendas.
To those that don't know me, measuring atmospheric chemistry is what I do, so without getting into a gun, tow vehicle debate there is a great deal of research that very few know about. If we do not continue with this research and establish some baseline data, humanity will not know of we are killing our future or not

[Ray Eklund]

Originally Posted by KJRitchie

Climate change is inevitable whether its accelerated by humans or not. We will just have to adjust. Over population is a bigger concern.
Kelvin

*****

I am with you. Humans... or not. Not... is what I imagine.

If we were to have a count of insects living today... they could be the source of all of our problems. From eating anything to CO2 emissions. When maggots can devour a human body in a short time... converting protein into energy, methane and CO2. Energy is neither created nor destroyed. We end up with healthier insects and we are the poorer for it.

Geologically, we are at a dormant time of Earth's history. The majority of the important gold, silver, copper and valuable metals and minerals are found among 65,000,000 and younger rocks. This is the same time that the Dinosaurs and their little buddies went extinct... other than birds which managed to find other places more favorable for themselves. Volcanic activity today is nothing compared to our past... geological time past. Not your Great Grandfather's experience, which could be more the Jack Daniels talking.

I have to leave some Canadian nickel/iron deposits out... as it would scare you into becoming a believer that nasty things have and still can happen to us.

Since Earth has had a number of mass extinctions in the last 450,000,000 years of dominant life forms, trilobites were around for hundreds of millions years and... bang... gone at the same time. Same with our Dinosaurs. Obviously if you become successful on THIS PLANET... you will get what is coming to you.

I would suspect that nearly 99% of Airforum members do not realize that the continents had been ONE, not once, but several times. The last one fits South America into Africa very easily. It took a long time for our world's brightest to figure that one out, as well. No flights were needed to cross the... one ocean at that time.

Climate does change. Our continents are moving as I speak. Ask Californians. The west coast of Oregon and Washington have islands added to their coastlines from our moving WEST. This planet is not static. As long as our core is molten and the Sun keeps burning out on schedule, we can debate this on the Airforums.

The most interesting people I have met have been Geologists. They do not have to say the "Sky is Falling". They already know what is coming. Same with those tracking large asteroids.

Had I choices... give me Climate Change. Most of the northern latitudes are lousy places to live full time in a building, an Airstream or a tent. This is much of our current existing land mass with good views... and nothing to show for it. Although you will find Palm Leaves and tropical plants in shale under the eternal ice up north.

If humans do not make it within the next 25,000,000 years... maybe something less intelligent will resume our pious position we find ourselves. The Cockroach... maybe, wearing glasses? ... and do not get into Paleontology. We are so primitive that we share pretty much anything another mammal has. We just are naked... and that is what has caused the population explosion. Had we been Marsupials... the females would have just hopped away and let us go extinct.

[J. Morgan]

This issue sounds a lot like politics....

But that said, atmospheric concentrations of 4/10,000 ain't going to do squat for temperature conversion/retention , bump it all the way to 1/1,000, the effect is the same, butkiss.

There is not a single demonstration that I have been able to find where CO2 in trace concentrations can magically upend global climate or can affect temperature AT ALL.

I have looked and looked for such a demonstration, and challenged many people to present this information and it seem not to be there.

Good science requires a foundation in fact, AGW has no such foundation.


Brevi tempore!

[J. Morgan]

Concentration of CO2 in our atmosphere is slightly over .0004.

Let that sink in.....


Brevi tempore!

[cdufault]

This and any other US conversation about climate change will go no further than the political trench in which you sit. Tis a short life. Enjoy the change from the comfort of your Airstream.

[DavidsonOverlander]

Wow, there's so much bull in this rambling message that it's hard to know where to start. I'm not even sure if you're serious or not! (-:

[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

*****

I am with you. Humans... or not. Not... is what I imagine.

If we were to have a count of insects living today... they could be the source of all of our problems. From eating anything to CO2 emissions. When maggots can devour a human body in a short time... converting protein into energy, methane and CO2. Energy is neither created nor destroyed. We end up with healthier insects and we are the poorer for it.

The CO2 emitted by insects does not contribute to global warming. They are aiding the decomposition of organisms that absorbed that carbon recently. That's why burning biomass is preferable to burning fossil fuels. The carbon in fossil fuels was removed from the atmosphere millions of years ago and would otherwise remain locked underground, but the carbon in wood (for example) was removed from the atmosphere in the past few decades and if the wood was not burned the carbon would be released when the wood decomposed in the relatively near future anyway. It's just being released sooner.

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

*****


Geologically, we are at a dormant time of Earth's history. The majority of the important gold, silver, copper and valuable metals and minerals are found among 65,000,000 and younger rocks. This is the same time that the Dinosaurs and their little buddies went extinct... other than birds which managed to find other places more favorable for themselves. Volcanic activity today is nothing compared to our past... geological time past. Not your Great Grandfather's experience, which could be more the Jack Daniels talking.

I have to leave some Canadian nickel/iron deposits out... as it would scare you into becoming a believer that nasty things have and still can happen to us.

Since Earth has had a number of mass extinctions in the last 450,000,000 years of dominant life forms, trilobites were around for hundreds of millions years and... bang... gone at the same time. Same with our Dinosaurs. Obviously if you become successful on THIS PLANET... you will get what is coming to you.

I don't see what any of the above has to do with climate change being caused by pollution over a relatively short period of time. It doesn't even make any sense! We're looking at a change over hundreds of years, not millions. "Obviously if you become successful on THIS PLANET... you will get what is coming to you." - What does that even mean? Do you think that some higher power will wipe out anything that becomes successful? Or that species that become successful don't deserve to live?

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

*****


I would suspect that nearly 99% of Airforum members do not realize that the continents had been ONE, not once, but several times. The last one fits South America into Africa very easily. It took a long time for our world's brightest to figure that one out, as well. No flights were needed to cross the... one ocean at that time.

Surely we Airstreamers are a more intelligent lot than that! Again, this has nothing to do with climate change over the short (geologically speaking) term.

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

*****


Climate does change. Our continents are moving as I speak. Ask Californians. The west coast of Oregon and Washington have islands added to their coastlines from our moving WEST. This planet is not static. As long as our core is molten and the Sun keeps burning out on schedule, we can debate this on the Airforums.

Of course climate has changed! That's not up for debate. And again, the movement of continents happens so slowly that it has nothing to do with the current conditions of climate change.

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

*****


The most interesting people I have met have been Geologists. They do not have to say the "Sky is Falling". They already know what is coming. Same with those tracking large asteroids.

Had I choices... give me Climate Change. Most of the northern latitudes are lousy places to live full time in a building, an Airstream or a tent. This is much of our current existing land mass with good views... and nothing to show for it. Although you will find Palm Leaves and tropical plants in shale under the eternal ice up north.

That's quite a statement to make for someone who doesn't actually live in the Arctic! I think the people who do live there would not agree that it's a "lousy" place to live. You're also ignoring the millions of people who live at elevations just above sea level who will be flooded out as the icecaps melt and oceans rise. Over the next hundred years there could be close to 200 million people displaced by flooding due to climate change. Climate change is not as simple as the whole planet warming up a bit and those of us in the north putting away our snow shovels.

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

*****


If humans do not make it within the next 25,000,000 years... maybe something less intelligent will resume our pious position we find ourselves. The Cockroach... maybe, wearing glasses? ... and do not get into Paleontology. We are so primitive that we share pretty much anything another mammal has. We just are naked... and that is what has caused the population explosion. Had we been Marsupials... the females would have just hopped away and let us go extinct.

It's not about whether we're still around in 25 million years, we've only been around for a couple of hundred thousand years and have only been developed enough to have recorded history for about 5000 years. We've come along way in the knowledge we've gained and the technology we've developed in the last 500 years. I doubt that we're going to be wiped out by climate change, but that's not how we should measure our success as a species. How many other species will be wiped out by climate change caused by our pollution? You might say that lots of species have disappeared and it hasn't been the fault of humans, and that's true, but that doesn't make it okay for us to do it now just because we can't admit there's a problem.

Even if you don't accept that we are causing global warming, pouring more pollution into the air from a finite source of energy is not a good idea and we should move to cleaner forms of energy that won't run out. Countries that don't invest in cleaner sources of energy will be left in the dust of those that do.