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Old 11-29-2015, 12:28 PM   #99
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[QUOTE=avionstream;1716900]The same type of technology that cleaned up car emissions has been used to clean coal fired plants. Yet even though they can be clean, the climate change people still want them eliminated. That's where the politics comes on. Auto standards embraced ten years ago as being all we need are now being touted as not good enough.


Very hard to remove to politics from subjects like these. But above you outlined a couple that are not as simple as it might seem.

In the first days of president George W Bush's period in office. It was decided to relax both the clean air act requiring that our coal fired generating plants implement these cleaning and scrubbing measures that you mention. This because it was too expensive for the power companies to do.

Also it was decided to roll back CAFE standards on new cars. Requiring them to meet lower emissions standards. And and better MPG performance.

In the time since those decisions as far as I know the power companies have been very slow in installing these improvements that would let the U S safely use its abundant and inexpensive coal supplies. So as you say these plants can be set up to run more cleanly but have not chosen to do so.

As far as the choice to roll back CAFE standards for our Auto industry.
They continued to roll out the same olde. Thirsty beasts they had been producing for years. While makers in other parts of the world were engineering and building much more modern smaller, and way more fuel efficient product. As a result the U S auto industry almost stalled its self into total insolvency. What that required to turn around we all remember.
How many millions of cars have been added to the worlds roads in the last Ten years?

Our industry Board Rooms are responsive to their share holders and this years bottom line. Making it hard to spend now to do better in the long run.
Hence the need for outside pressure to compel them to to do what is needed in the long run.
I'm hopping down from the soapbox now, next.

Cheers Richard
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Old 11-29-2015, 12:37 PM   #100
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I am disappointed that those with the weakest facts believe this is a debate over Gun Control and Concealed Carry Permits.

Point One. Melting glaciers due to Global Warming. True. They are melting and not because of human activity. The planet is in a Inter Glacial period of warming. It has happened numerous times... even when humans were in small numbers. The oldest Indian Artifacts found in North America... are under the ocean along the coast. Date the site of these Paleolithic sites and you can compute the melting of the ice from the last of four major advances. Which.. by the way extended down to the Missouri River in Missouri. The river is the product of the edge of the melting ice. Shown by sediments, the ice edges been thousands of feet thick. The furthest advance of the last Ice Age. There are shelves of books on this subject by Geologists, Archaeologists, Paleontologists, Glacial Scientists... not one Climate Scientist. None of this falls into the Climate Scientist's... research.

When the Ice retreated, the continent rebounded from the weight removed on the surface. Continents FLOAT on the mantle like ice cubes in a glass of water. Shocked? Like forcing a basketball into a bucket and reducing the pressure, it rises.

The subject is only divisive when one side has no proof to prop up their beliefs. Science provides proofs that a Theory is correct and facts that a layman can go out and discover it for themselves. I do not need a computer to know that the sea level has been rising since the retreat of each and every Ice Age.

Imagine the pollution of the Planet when the mountain chains were bringing up rich petroleum and coal formations to the surface, polluting the atmosphere. Most cannot, as it happens slowly. There are underground coal fires, I call steamers, in Wyoming within geologic formations. Does anyone want to put them out to reduce pollution, or fine VW for its diesel exhaust?

Dare I even bring up Human Evolution and Darwin?

Depleted ground water....? This is not Global Warming... it is consumption. Much of this ground water is the result of the Pleistocene ice melt.

We are a product of evolution on this planet. We are more likely to destroy ourselves by killing one another over beliefs, than facts. Since the beginning of life on Earth, life has flourished and went extinct when you would expected the most dominant species would go on forever. We are products of these changes in life forms and the migration out of Africa during the last Ice Age. We are recent in geologic history. The horse has us beat by 45,000,000 years and they should be traveling in Airstreams, not us.

What is our future? Not yours or mine to decide. Eventually change will occur to balance the eco system. One virus... mutating to another and then to another will most likely be our demise. Not an overheated planet. Humans are a vulnerable species. We can adapt to changes in our environment, but our success story is only temporary.

This is OFF TOPIC, more of a melding of the great variety of personal experiences of those on this Forum. I have a neighbor who believes the Earth is 10,000 years old according to the Bible. I knew a Sioux Indian along the North and South Dakota border that believed that spiders made flint arrowheads you find. I know people who when you show them a Fossil 38,000,000 Mesohippus (an ancestor to the modern horse)... they do not want to see it, as it conflicts with their beliefs.

Discussion is good, but you have to play fair. The losers ask questions to debate, but never offer much in fact. My points can be researched and the evidence is there in your back yard, or mine. Just because it is convenient to ignore what you see... does not make your position right.
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:27 PM   #101
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I s there any truth to this, an email sent by one of my right wing friends,

Ian Rutherford Plimer is an Australian geologist, professor emeritus of earth sciences
at the University of Melbourne , professor of mining geology at the University of Adelaide , and the director of multiple mineral exploration and mining companies. He has published 130 scientific papers, six books and edited the Encyclopedia of Geology.

Born
12 February 1946 (age 68)

Residence
Australia

Nationality
Australian

Fields
Earth Science, Geology, Mining Engineering

Institutions
University of New England , University of Newcastle , University of Melbourne , University of Adelaide

Alma mater
University of New South Wales , Macquarie University

Thesis
The pipe deposits of tungsten-molybdenum-bismuth in eastern Australia (1976)

Notable Awards
Eureka Prize(1995,2002),Centenary Medal(2003), Clarke Medal (2004)



Where Does the Carbon Dioxide Really Come From?


PLIMER: "Okay, here's the bombshell. The recent volcanic eruption in Iceland . Since its first spewing of volcanic ash has, in just FOUR DAYS, NEGATED EVERY SINGLE EFFORT you have made in the past five years to control CO2 emissions on our planet - all of you.

Of course, you know about this evil carbon dioxide that we are trying to suppress - it’s that vital chemical compound that every plant requires to live and grow and to synthesize into oxygen for us humans and all animal life.

I know....it's very disheartening to realize that all of the carbon emission savings you have accomplished while suffering the inconvenience and expense of driving Prius hybrids, buying fabric grocery bags, sitting up till midnight to finish your kids "The Green Revolution" science project, throwing out all of your non-green cleaning supplies, using only two squares of toilet paper, putting a brick in your toilet tank reservoir, selling your SUV and speedboat, vacationing at home instead of abroad, nearly getting hit every day on your bicycle, replacing all of your 50p light bulbs with 5 light bulbs ..... well, all of those things you have done have all gone down the tubes in just four days.

The volcanic ash emitted into the Earth's atmosphere in just four days - yes, FOUR DAYS - by that volcano in Iceland has totally erased every single effort you have made to reduce the evil beast, carbon. And there are around 200 active volcanoes on the planet spewing out this crud at any one time - EVERY DAY.

I don't really want to rain on your parade too much, but I should mention that when the volcano Mt. Pinatubo erupted in the Philippines in 1991, it spewed out more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than the entire human race had emitted in all its years on earth.

Yes, folks, Mt. Pinatubo was active for over one year - think about it!!!!

Of course, I shouldn't spoil this 'touchy-feely tree-hugging' moment and mention the effect of solar and cosmic activity and the well-recognized 800-year global heating and cooling cycle, which keeps happening despite our completely insignificant efforts to affect climate change.

And I do wish I had a silver lining to this volcanic ash cloud, but the fact of the matter is that the bush fire season across the western USA and Australia this year alone will negate your efforts to reduce carbon in our world for the next two to three years. And it happens every year.

Just remember that your government just tried to impose a whopping carbon tax on you, on the basis of the bogus 'human-caused' climate-change scenario.

Hey, isn’t it interesting how they don’t mention 'Global Warming' anymore, but just 'Climate Change' - you know why? It’s because the planet has COOLED by 0.7 degrees in the past few years and these global warming bull artists got caught with their pants down.

And, just keep in mind that you might yet have an Emissions Trading Scheme - that whopping new tax - imposed on you that will achieve absolutely nothing except make you poorer. It won’t stop any volcanoes from erupting, that’s for sure.

But, hey, relax......give the world a hug and have a nice day!"
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:49 PM   #102
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There you go!! But he can't go to all the climate change gettogethers , I'll bet.
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Old 11-29-2015, 02:15 PM   #103
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We should have the capacity to view things in their true relations or relative importance, otherwise fail to see the solution.
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Old 11-29-2015, 02:36 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by kscherzi View Post
By and large what's now called man made climate change used to be called air pollution. Maybe some of you recall the terrible smog in the major cities back in the 1960s and 70s. The sky's were brown and breathing was difficult. That's mostly cleared up now after smart scientist and engineers discovered the cause and found effective solutions, namely pollution controls for vehicles and use of superior computation technology such as fuel injection.

Remember the ozone layer? A complete loss would have been very serious. Life on earth would have been vastly less diverse. Again smart scientists figured out the culprit, a simple unintended chemical reaction between high altitude ozone and a man made chemical compound. Worldwide leadership worked together to make changes that changed course to a solution.

Both times plenty of naysayers but facts are facts, and today nobody is complaining too loudly about still being alive.

Not saying everybody should discard their Airstream and vehicles and move to a urban condo above a transit center with three roommates and share a bicycle and become a vegetarian. But think about it. This is where some policy makers are headed, and they intend to force this change by making fossil fuels very expensive.

What lifestyle do you wish for your children and grandchildren. For my part I use solar, not a generator for power. I tow at 55 to 60 to minimize fuel burn, and don't move the trailer too often, instead use it as a home base. I also mostly cut out meat, but mostly for health reasons.
If you remember the 60s you weren't there. Only kidding. I remember in the 60s going to any city with a steel mill with smoke stacks belching and lots of happy people with a job and a good income. I guess I inhaled the crap plus a few Lucky Strikes and it probably lowered my life expectancy but what the hell is the difference? Sal
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Old 11-29-2015, 02:52 PM   #105
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Is there any truth to this, an email sent by one of my right wing friends,

....when the volcano Mt. Pinatubo erupted in the Philippines in 1991, it spewed out more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than the entire human race had emitted in all its years on earth.

Yes, folks, Mt. Pinatubo was active for over one year - think about it!!!!
Not much truth, no. Looking at the name of the author gives us reason to check the facts.

Mt Pintaba is easy to look up (sources noted).

"The Mount Pinatubo eruption emitted 42 million tonnes of CO2 (Gerlach et al 1996). Compare this to human emissions in 1991: 23 billion tonnes of CO2 (CDIAC). The strongest eruption over the last half-century amounted to 0.2% of human CO2 emissions in that year."

Links available if you like.

Also note that the ash cloud results in global cooling, not global warming. It doesn't last as long as the CO2 though. Volcanic activity actually provides one of the lines of evidence of the effects of CO2, since we get to see a change and the resulting impact on the environment, without having to wait decades.

Ian Pilmer is well known in climate change contrarian circles. Trying to be polite here and not call him a science denier. Like the OP, he is a geologist. While it doesn't make his claims right or wrong, finding out about the author of an email meme can help one to understand motivations and credentials.

Ian Plimer - SourceWatch
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Old 11-29-2015, 02:53 PM   #106
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I s there any truth to this, an email sent by one of my right wing friends,

Ian Rutherford Plimer is an Australian geologist, professor emeritus of earth sciences
at the University of Melbourne , professor of mining geology at the University of Adelaide , and the director of multiple mineral exploration and mining companies. He has published 130 scientific papers, six books and edited the Encyclopedia of Geology.
Nope.

"To scale up volcanic carbon dioxide output to the current anthropogenic level would require adding thousands of volcanoes to the 50 to 60 normally active volcanoes of the subaerial landscape and more than a hundred additional mid-ocean ridge systems to the seafloor.

Global volcanic carbon dioxide emission estimates contain uncertainties and are variable, but there is virtually no doubt that volcanism adds far less carbon dioxide to the oceans and atmosphere than humans."

-from article above
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Old 11-29-2015, 03:19 PM   #107
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I know... stir the pot while throwing more dry logs under it. Excuse me... is that your tree?

It might be more important to follow the dissolved CO2 in our fresh water lakes and salt water oceans for a better balance to the atmosphere. Coral build their reefs from combining Calcium and CO2... limestone in effect. Although the reefs are not doing well at the present time. There are other CaCO2 binding micro fauna that work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, as well. So numerous that the sands of time have some competition in body counts.

Even in my limited mental capacity I can toss out roofing nails onto the highway to a cure.

When it rains, CO2 is picked up in the air making the water slightly acidic... slowly dissolving limestone exposures and lime in the soils. Carbonic Acid. But then leaving Carlsbad Caverns as a reminder when the CO2 is released to all of you visiting to inhale.

I probably could come up with other ideas without spending Public Money to discover, but when everyone can make up scenarios that seem realistic... why not ME?
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Old 11-29-2015, 03:23 PM   #108
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Climate Change has existed and will continue with or without your participation.
I agree with this statement. It doesn't in any way, however, impact the conclusion that we are impacting our climate at the moment by human emissions of CO2.

If it wasn't for our CO2 emissions, the earth would be cooling right now due to reduced solar radiation. Our emissions of CO2 are causing more than 100% of recent global warming.

I am struck, though, by J. Morgan's signature line, Brevi Tempore. Translated: in a short time. That is the big issue with climate change, the rate of warming, or the amount of warming in a short time. While we could survive without too many consequences at a warmer temperature, we have built our systems, from coastal flood control to food production to energy production, to disease control, to water distribution, based on the current climate. It is the transition that will cause the most harm, not the resultant temperature change. Unless we go well beyond the 1 degree we have already warmed, then the absolute will matter.

Brevi Tempore. Worth thinking about as the Paris climate conference gets underway.
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Old 11-29-2015, 03:26 PM   #109
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All this debate will be for nothing once Obama becomes the head of the UN. It'll pretty much be over then.
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Old 11-29-2015, 03:57 PM   #110
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If you were to ask me... which you would not, but might. I am more concerned about "Global Cooling" than Global Warming.

Global Warming motivates people to migrate and pollute on their way north as man did out of Africa. The Sahara Desert is a recent desert... much nicer than the Sahara Casino in Las Vegas as far as climate control. Nobody I am related to created this change and I am still stuck as a Homo erectus, my brother says.

At the present time, I find more people moving towards the equator, than away. Maybe to achieve the 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of night. The Middle East is the exception.

Continents create their own COLDER climates as they gain elevation without any consideration to whom might want to live on or near one. Just a shift of Earth's axis of 23 1/2 degrees to 10 degrees... we are really going to experience some warming. The north pole moves around as much as Full Timers do in the USA seasons. I am afraid to ask where it might be today. I feel some wobbling as I type.

If someone were to see how thin our atmosphere is around Earth... it would get you to breathe half as much for saving it.

Living organisms do what they do best. Eat, breed, migrate, breed, eat, pollute and get eaten by a smarter more conservative form of life. We are no different. Put out a water bowl for birds in your yard. When a bird drinks, they will turn to jump off the edge... while leaving a "thank you human" deposit. Humans are just a bit more imaginative in this sophisticated system I discovered.

We are all optimistic. Why have a refrigerator and pantry at home if the end of the World is near... or even around the next few billion years? Nature writes its own Laws. Eventually these natural laws will correct the system without prejudice or remorse. Even Murphy's Law could apply today. Whatever can go wrong, will gone wrong. (?)

So mark on your calendar the dates for 2016, the family vacation in your Airstream. Fire up the 5.2L 4x4 and do not feel sorry for me. When you get to where you are going... I will already be there to shake your hand and welcome you as a friend. Lets share some O2, emit CO2 together and stoke the carbon pollution to warm our bodies at night. ... and leave the CH4 at home. It can be explosive in a confined area.
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Old 11-29-2015, 04:30 PM   #111
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What timing.......
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/eart...ndal-ever.html


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Old 11-29-2015, 05:03 PM   #112
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Actuallythere are many solar experts who say we are in for a general cooling due to solar activity. Another fact not generally told by the press?
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