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Old 11-28-2015, 11:33 PM   #57
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If you look at all causes of global warming, volcanoes probably head the list, not only because they vent a number of greenhouse gases and ozone-depleting gases, but also because they vent heat directly into the atmosphere from the earth's molten mantle.
Mankind doesn't control volcano's. Man does burn petroleum releasing carbon that would otherwise never happen. The ideal notion is for mankind to exist on earth without creating an impact, same as if mankind did not exist.

Another significant emitter of greenhouse gas are cattle and other animals bred in high numbers for consumption by mankind. A good person sensitive to the needs to reduce greenhouse gas emissions will become a vegetarian.

I thought about this as I was towing my Airstream past Harris Ranch today alongside I5 in California. Literally thousands of cattle are penned there a small space prior to slaughter. Always smelly.
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Old 11-28-2015, 11:46 PM   #58
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Global Geological Climate Change... Conference

If fossil fuels are fossil fuels, where did the carbon that we release from it originate?

And even beyond this, if fossil fuel is fossil fuel, what is it but stored solar energy?

What if up until the industrial evolution the earth had been starving for CO2?

What if this release of CO2 has allowed millions or billions to be fed today through higher plant yield?

In fact, what if I state with utmost confidence that billions alive today owe their very existence to this form of cheap energy?

What if curtailing the use of fossil fuels meant that people would die, but not a hundred or two hundred years from now, but in the next decade while first world governments collect their taxes?



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Old 11-28-2015, 11:53 PM   #59
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Save the trees, save the earth, save the seas, save the dolphins, save the sea turtles, save the ta ta's, save the babies in the womb ( well..... not so much THAT one....).

How about post-birth abortions? Now THAT would reduce carbon footprints!

I drove past my neighbor's pasture today admiring the beautiful cattle he has, and imagining just how good that grass-fed ribeye is going to taste once it comes off of the charcoal-fired grill.

I say it's time for the human-caused-climate-change worshippers to put your money where your beliefs are and park your RV's. More room in the parks and on the roads for the rest of us.


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Old 11-28-2015, 11:56 PM   #60
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Global Geological Climate Change... Conference

It is true that my Tahoe uses near twice as much gas while towing my Airstream at interstate speeds. ....


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Old 11-29-2015, 12:07 AM   #61
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I say it's time for the human-caused-climate-change worshippers to put your money where your beliefs are and park your RV's. More room in the parks and on the roads for the rest of us.
Better yet, they should reduce their carbon foot print as close to zero as possible! Denounce that evil Satan called technology! REPENT!
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Old 11-29-2015, 12:10 AM   #62
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Global Geological Climate Change... Conference

Yes we must roll back the technological revolution and the industrial evolution and live as we were meant to live.

Man, I am going to miss hot showers and air conditioning!


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Old 11-29-2015, 12:21 AM   #63
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Only the true believer's need apply. Just think of the carbon savings if 30% of the population does just that!

I think you could keep the hot showers and air conditioning.
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Old 11-29-2015, 12:29 AM   #64
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This thread saddens me mightily. How many posters are climatologists?

We used to work with these scientists, prior to our retirements: the ones who went out measuring sea ice and looking at tree ring data. I once put some of the climate-change denial arguments to one of these scientists who noted that of course, climate has always fluctuated, but the best models indicate that the global climate should be moving the opposite way (i.e. colder on global average) rather than warmer-- unless we account for anthropogenic inputs. A little atmospheric C02 goes a long way because of its heat-absorbing capacity.

We are losing the glaciers of Glacier National Park and the Columbia Ice Field, for those hoping to see them next summer. The diminution of sea ice is threatening polar bears and small Pacific island nations. The warmer climate may have contributed to the multi-origin devastation of western conifer forests by bark beetles, for those of you who don't enjoy seeing dead forests while on holiday. People in downstream areas all over the world who depend upon glaciers and snow packs for their year-round water supply (like those in the Himalayas) can't just move if this reservoir dries up.

We need to discuss global change, more than global warming. There is simply more energy in the global climate system today than in decades past, and, while overall the global climate is warming, it may not do so where you live due to changes in air and ocean currents. Moreover, since more heat in the oceans equals more evaporation equals more precipitation-- which may fall as snow-- there is a connection with more severe winter storms.

The idea that low-lying coastal areas are protected by dykes and levees didn't help the residents of the 9th Ward during Hurricane Katrina. It may not help coastal peoples globally, most of whom are not lucky enough to be cared for by FEMA or the Army Corps of Engineers.

The notion that anthropogenic climate change is false has been promoted by the major fossil fuel companies and politicians bankrolled by big oil or coal, and adopted by folks who have been upset with scientists ever since Charles Darwin proposed his theory of natural selection. Let's follow the money. Which industry benefits the most from climate change denial?

Yes, the earth's climate has always fluctuated, but if you're driving a car that is veering off the highway, generally you input a course correction. You don't step on the gas in the direction you're heading. Suppose the climate were heading into more scorching hot summers, droughts, and forest fires. Why would we wish to contribute further to such problems? Again, it's not just the US being affected, but vulnerable people internationally.

Some of us got into camping in the beautiful spots of North America through a love of the natural environment. Let's pass on our beautiful wild plants and wildlife to those children and grandchildren with whom so many of you love to go 'streaming.
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:05 AM   #65
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I think it's very important to discuss every topic with no limits, if you don't think the topic is OK to talk about you don't have to read the thread. If enough different opinions are discussed eventually the truth should come to light. An intelligent person would consider all the available information and educate themselves and make up their own minds. The more viewpoints the better I say! I think the carbon tax is just a scam to extract money from the masses. I also think that public opinion is manipulated for the benefit of the 1%. When I was a child scientists were predicting another ice age was coming soon and the vapor trails from jet plane exhaust never lasted anywhere near as long! Leland
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:08 AM   #66
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I'm getting out of this one. No one here is ever going to convince anyone else who holds a differing opinion, and those who are undecided probably aren't even reading the thread to have a chance be convinced one way or another.

The world is what it is, and none of us are on a level where we have enough influence to change it. The best we can do is live with it, and live according to our consciences. So if you're one of those people who thinks that mankind is responsible for climate change, do your own small part to help. If you're not, then don't. But please, whatever you do, don't become like those people who protest the wearing of fur but still have leather shoes, belts and handbags. Hypocrisy helps no one.

All of you, enjoy the discussion. But as for me, I'm outta here.
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:29 AM   #67
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Just 500 years or so ago European settlers in America felt the forests to be limitless and available for the taking at will. Then came power saws, big trucks, more efficient mills. And suddenly the limits of the Forrest's became clear, and changes had to be made.
Only less than 200 years ago fishing fleets started to really grow. Then along came powered boats and trawling capabilitys improved. Then refergerated storage and transportation made larger scale fishing profitable. And suddenly seemingly limitless fish stocks in the oceans started to dwindle and some became so overfished and deminished as to cause wholesale loss of earlier productive fisheries.

These are just a couple of examples of short sighted ness and misunderstanding the possible impacts of rapidly increasing technology and human numbers.

I'm not in a position to judge the realities about the degree of our impact in climate change. But it is clear that modern humand are capable of huge impacts on parts of the earth thought to be limitless. Like the boundless atmosphere.

The concept of Gaia. The earth as a total living entity is an interesting one.

The interconnectedness is hard to miss at times. How far was the plume from mount Saint Helen felt? The smoke from the fires in the west this summer was to be seen east of the Rockies.
The sunami from the earth quake in Japan caused the closing of a wonderful resort on the big Island in Hawaii where I used to work. And debris from Japan started to show up not too long afterward.
I too feel these conversations are important and need to be constructive. Which requires restraint from saying things that will just inflame those with different views. The well being of earth and all that inhabit her require that we all pull together in some of these issues. Or so I sees it.

Cheers Richard
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:37 AM   #68
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Like I stated earlier, the theory is ENTIRELY based on models. The hard science that a rational person would assume is in place IS NOT THERE.

Study for yourself and see for yourself.
The body of science that supports the conclusion that humans cause most of the warming that we are seeing is not just based on models. Models help to understand the issues, but they are not the evidence. This is easily seen by studying it yourself, as you suggest. Use real science sites, like Skeptical Science, not contrarian sites run by shysters.

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Lets not be disingenuous... in our lifetime, probably not but you know that.
Strongly disagree. But for many it will be more concerning thinking about our children's lifetimes, for those that have families.

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In some way is probably true, but the link between warming and CO2 in trace amounts has not been made.
It has been made. You just have to look with an open mind to see. The science has been published. Some seem to think this is a matter of opinion, theirs vs others. It isn't opinion. It is science. There is a cost to ignoring it.

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This thread saddens me mightily.
Me too. The level of disinformation is very high. Agree with the rest of your post too, thanks for posting.

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Old 11-29-2015, 01:41 AM   #69
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J. Morgan, I don't know what you would accept as "proof" of the CO2 contribution to global change. You will find the basic science in articles like these:

http://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=e...hCB_sQgQMIGTAA

Why does CO2 get most of the attention when there are so many other heat-trapping gases (greenhouse gases)? | Union of Concerned Scientists

If carbon dioxide makes up only a minute portion of the atmosphere, how can global warming be traced to it? And how can such a tiny amount of change produce such large effects? - Scientific American

Carbon Dioxide and Climate - Scientific American

Climate and Earth’s Energy Budget : Feature Articles

I'm not a scientist, so I hope that someone who is will give a better explanation than I can.

During past geologic periods when the climate was warmer, a lot of carbon became stored in biomass. Overtime and under the right geological conditions, much of this biomass became converted to fossil fuels. This process of carbon storage occurred over many millions of years.

The problem today is that, as these fossil fuels are extracted and burned, C02 that was laid down and locked up over 10s of millions of years has been suddenly released into the atmosphere in just a couple of centuries-- mostly during the 20th century, but continuing at a rapid rate.

Although C02 is taken in by today's plants through photosynthesis, a major concern is that rapid deforestation (notably of tropical rain forests, where so much of the biomass is or was,) and ocean pollution are removing the very means whereby carbon is taken out of the atmosphere and stored in plant tissues.

While CO2 comprises a tiny part of our atmosphere, it plays a major role in heating the earth close to the surface: sunlight reaches the earth, warms the surface, and then the C02 helps warm our air and water temperatures by trapping the heat released by the earth's surface that is being radiated back into space. Apparently it doesn't take a huge variation in this heat and atmospheric chemistry balance to bring about significant shifts in places like the polar ice caps and deserts.

Much of the initial work on C02 was based on modeling and theory, but lately accumulated evidence has backed them up.

http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

http://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=e...hCB_sQgQMIGTAA

Even if you aren't convinced that this process leads to global warming, think about what else gets burned and released into the atmosphere with fossil fuel burning: particulates, sulfur, and nitrous oxides that produce smog and acid deposition. These aren't good for you or people you care about to breathe, especially in places prone to temperature inversions, where the stuff hangs around in the air for long periods of time.

This thread may seem a long distance from Airstreams, but as some have pointed out, we are all responsible for what we put into our common natural resource: the atmosphere.
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:51 AM   #70
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If you look at all causes of global warming, volcanoes probably head the list, not only because they vent a number of greenhouse gases and ozone-depleting gases, but also because they vent heat directly into the atmosphere from the earth's molten mantle.
Fortunately, scientists have looked at all the causes.

CO2 has been found to be the dominant factor.

And humans have been found to emit 100 times the CO2 as volcanos.

https://www.skepticalscience.com/vol...al-warming.htm

There are other effects from volcanic activity, notably sulphur dioxide. That restricts incoming solar radiation, cooling the planet.
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