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Old 11-28-2015, 06:12 PM   #15
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The really sad part of the Climate Change debate is that it is now being politicized and is for sale to the highest bidder to suit their own political agendas.
To those that don't know me, measuring atmospheric chemistry is what I do, so without getting into a gun, tow vehicle debate there is a great deal of research that very few know about. If we do not continue with this research and establish some baseline data, humanity will not know of we are killing our future or not
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Old 11-28-2015, 07:28 PM   #16
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Climate change is inevitable whether its accelerated by humans or not. We will just have to adjust. Over population is a bigger concern.
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I am with you. Humans... or not. Not... is what I imagine.

If we were to have a count of insects living today... they could be the source of all of our problems. From eating anything to CO2 emissions. When maggots can devour a human body in a short time... converting protein into energy, methane and CO2. Energy is neither created nor destroyed. We end up with healthier insects and we are the poorer for it.

Geologically, we are at a dormant time of Earth's history. The majority of the important gold, silver, copper and valuable metals and minerals are found among 65,000,000 and younger rocks. This is the same time that the Dinosaurs and their little buddies went extinct... other than birds which managed to find other places more favorable for themselves. Volcanic activity today is nothing compared to our past... geological time past. Not your Great Grandfather's experience, which could be more the Jack Daniels talking.

I have to leave some Canadian nickel/iron deposits out... as it would scare you into becoming a believer that nasty things have and still can happen to us.

Since Earth has had a number of mass extinctions in the last 450,000,000 years of dominant life forms, trilobites were around for hundreds of millions years and... bang... gone at the same time. Same with our Dinosaurs. Obviously if you become successful on THIS PLANET... you will get what is coming to you.

I would suspect that nearly 99% of Airforum members do not realize that the continents had been ONE, not once, but several times. The last one fits South America into Africa very easily. It took a long time for our world's brightest to figure that one out, as well. No flights were needed to cross the... one ocean at that time.

Climate does change. Our continents are moving as I speak. Ask Californians. The west coast of Oregon and Washington have islands added to their coastlines from our moving WEST. This planet is not static. As long as our core is molten and the Sun keeps burning out on schedule, we can debate this on the Airforums.

The most interesting people I have met have been Geologists. They do not have to say the "Sky is Falling". They already know what is coming. Same with those tracking large asteroids.

Had I choices... give me Climate Change. Most of the northern latitudes are lousy places to live full time in a building, an Airstream or a tent. This is much of our current existing land mass with good views... and nothing to show for it. Although you will find Palm Leaves and tropical plants in shale under the eternal ice up north.

If humans do not make it within the next 25,000,000 years... maybe something less intelligent will resume our pious position we find ourselves. The Cockroach... maybe, wearing glasses? ... and do not get into Paleontology. We are so primitive that we share pretty much anything another mammal has. We just are naked... and that is what has caused the population explosion. Had we been Marsupials... the females would have just hopped away and let us go extinct.
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Old 11-28-2015, 07:40 PM   #17
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This issue sounds a lot like politics....

But that said, atmospheric concentrations of 4/10,000 ain't going to do squat for temperature conversion/retention , bump it all the way to 1/1,000, the effect is the same, butkiss.

There is not a single demonstration that I have been able to find where CO2 in trace concentrations can magically upend global climate or can affect temperature AT ALL.

I have looked and looked for such a demonstration, and challenged many people to present this information and it seem not to be there.

Good science requires a foundation in fact, AGW has no such foundation.


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Old 11-28-2015, 07:42 PM   #18
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Global Geological Climate Change... Conference

Concentration of CO2 in our atmosphere is slightly over .0004.

Let that sink in.....


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Old 11-28-2015, 08:07 PM   #19
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This and any other US conversation about climate change will go no further than the political trench in which you sit. Tis a short life. Enjoy the change from the comfort of your Airstream.
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Old 11-28-2015, 08:38 PM   #20
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Wow, there's so much bull in this rambling message that it's hard to know where to start. I'm not even sure if you're serious or not! (-:

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I am with you. Humans... or not. Not... is what I imagine.

If we were to have a count of insects living today... they could be the source of all of our problems. From eating anything to CO2 emissions. When maggots can devour a human body in a short time... converting protein into energy, methane and CO2. Energy is neither created nor destroyed. We end up with healthier insects and we are the poorer for it.
The CO2 emitted by insects does not contribute to global warming. They are aiding the decomposition of organisms that absorbed that carbon recently. That's why burning biomass is preferable to burning fossil fuels. The carbon in fossil fuels was removed from the atmosphere millions of years ago and would otherwise remain locked underground, but the carbon in wood (for example) was removed from the atmosphere in the past few decades and if the wood was not burned the carbon would be released when the wood decomposed in the relatively near future anyway. It's just being released sooner.

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Geologically, we are at a dormant time of Earth's history. The majority of the important gold, silver, copper and valuable metals and minerals are found among 65,000,000 and younger rocks. This is the same time that the Dinosaurs and their little buddies went extinct... other than birds which managed to find other places more favorable for themselves. Volcanic activity today is nothing compared to our past... geological time past. Not your Great Grandfather's experience, which could be more the Jack Daniels talking.

I have to leave some Canadian nickel/iron deposits out... as it would scare you into becoming a believer that nasty things have and still can happen to us.

Since Earth has had a number of mass extinctions in the last 450,000,000 years of dominant life forms, trilobites were around for hundreds of millions years and... bang... gone at the same time. Same with our Dinosaurs. Obviously if you become successful on THIS PLANET... you will get what is coming to you.
I don't see what any of the above has to do with climate change being caused by pollution over a relatively short period of time. It doesn't even make any sense! We're looking at a change over hundreds of years, not millions. "Obviously if you become successful on THIS PLANET... you will get what is coming to you." - What does that even mean? Do you think that some higher power will wipe out anything that becomes successful? Or that species that become successful don't deserve to live?


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I would suspect that nearly 99% of Airforum members do not realize that the continents had been ONE, not once, but several times. The last one fits South America into Africa very easily. It took a long time for our world's brightest to figure that one out, as well. No flights were needed to cross the... one ocean at that time.
Surely we Airstreamers are a more intelligent lot than that! Again, this has nothing to do with climate change over the short (geologically speaking) term.

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Climate does change. Our continents are moving as I speak. Ask Californians. The west coast of Oregon and Washington have islands added to their coastlines from our moving WEST. This planet is not static. As long as our core is molten and the Sun keeps burning out on schedule, we can debate this on the Airforums.
Of course climate has changed! That's not up for debate. And again, the movement of continents happens so slowly that it has nothing to do with the current conditions of climate change.

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The most interesting people I have met have been Geologists. They do not have to say the "Sky is Falling". They already know what is coming. Same with those tracking large asteroids.

Had I choices... give me Climate Change. Most of the northern latitudes are lousy places to live full time in a building, an Airstream or a tent. This is much of our current existing land mass with good views... and nothing to show for it. Although you will find Palm Leaves and tropical plants in shale under the eternal ice up north.
That's quite a statement to make for someone who doesn't actually live in the Arctic! I think the people who do live there would not agree that it's a "lousy" place to live. You're also ignoring the millions of people who live at elevations just above sea level who will be flooded out as the icecaps melt and oceans rise. Over the next hundred years there could be close to 200 million people displaced by flooding due to climate change. Climate change is not as simple as the whole planet warming up a bit and those of us in the north putting away our snow shovels.


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If humans do not make it within the next 25,000,000 years... maybe something less intelligent will resume our pious position we find ourselves. The Cockroach... maybe, wearing glasses? ... and do not get into Paleontology. We are so primitive that we share pretty much anything another mammal has. We just are naked... and that is what has caused the population explosion. Had we been Marsupials... the females would have just hopped away and let us go extinct.
It's not about whether we're still around in 25 million years, we've only been around for a couple of hundred thousand years and have only been developed enough to have recorded history for about 5000 years. We've come along way in the knowledge we've gained and the technology we've developed in the last 500 years. I doubt that we're going to be wiped out by climate change, but that's not how we should measure our success as a species. How many other species will be wiped out by climate change caused by our pollution? You might say that lots of species have disappeared and it hasn't been the fault of humans, and that's true, but that doesn't make it okay for us to do it now just because we can't admit there's a problem.

Even if you don't accept that we are causing global warming, pouring more pollution into the air from a finite source of energy is not a good idea and we should move to cleaner forms of energy that won't run out. Countries that don't invest in cleaner sources of energy will be left in the dust of those that do.
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Old 11-28-2015, 08:40 PM   #21
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I've deleted my posts, I don't think the climate change people can handle the truth. Environmentalism and anarchy are based on emotion and hatred, the truth is not relevant to those who believe in either.
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Old 11-28-2015, 08:42 PM   #22
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Our climate changes....like all life .....it is a cycle. Of course, we have an impact. But, our world climate will continue to change, in spite of us. Think of the sea life found on mountaintops, or in inland deserts. Ray, you are most correct, in that, some beliefs that are spouted as TRUTH, usually are from some with agendas...either political or financial.

Isn't it odd that some in the U.N. Who want our lifestyle to change...are so opportunistic when it comes to buying our coal? I rest my case. Evelyn.
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Old 11-28-2015, 08:46 PM   #23
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I've deleted my posts, I don't think the climate change people can handle the truth. Environmentalism and anarchy are based on emotion and hatred, the truth is not relevant to those who believe in either.
So what's the truth? And tell us why we should listen to you.
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Old 11-28-2015, 09:05 PM   #24
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OPINIONS.....we all have them, don't we? You don't need to believe mine...and I respect your right to have yours. That's what is GREAT ABOUT AMERICA!

Merry Christmas ....Happy Hanika..HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL! PEACE ON EARTH....GOOD WILL TO ALL MEN AND WOMEN!
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Old 11-28-2015, 09:10 PM   #25
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You're also ignoring the millions of people who live at elevations just above sea level who will be flooded out as the icecaps melt and oceans rise.
I live in the New Orleans area, which anyone will tell you is about as close to living at sea level as anyone can get. I also used to work for the Corps of Engineers, and every project we built had to take projected sea level rise into account. We used three different models, for low, moderate, and high sea level rise in our project planning because even with the vast array of scientific data at our disposal, we couldn't accurately predict how much or how soon.

But even with the high sea level rise model, the number of people in the US who would be displaced by sea level rise in the next hundred years is still close to zero, because the high sea level rise model only predicts about THREE feet of rise in that period of time, and the number of people living within three feet of sea level who aren't already protected by levees is minuscule. But there would be a lot more people whose homes are re-evaluated by FEMA for flood insurance purposes.
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Old 11-28-2015, 09:13 PM   #26
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OPINIONS.....we all have them, don't we? You don't need to believe mine...and I respect your right to have yours. That's what is GREAT ABOUT AMERICA!

Merry Christmas ....Happy Hanika..HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL! PEACE ON EARTH....GOOD WILL TO ALL MEN AND WOMEN!
Evelyn.
We're not all in America. And when people start saying our opinions are wrong, I want to know what qualifications they have that allows them to say so. You're allowed to your opinion, but you aren't allowed to make up your own facts. Unless you've got a background in the sciences, I'm not likely to give your opinion much quarter.

This thread is nothing but politics disguised as one persons apparent need to tell stories.
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Old 11-28-2015, 09:23 PM   #27
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I, as a run of the gold mill Geologist am a heretic in the Global Climate Change discussion. It is much like someone owning a Casita Trailer describing YOUR Airstream Trailer to someone who lives in a cave.

There are a couple of Western Adventures among the Black Hills and Wyoming that prove that Climate Change has always occurred and always will. It is just how this change is presented and what are the causes.
You claim to be a "heretic in the Global Climate Change discussion", but I don't think there's any debate about whether or not there has been climate change in the past. And what is "Western Adventures" and what does it have to do with climate change?

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Our lifetimes are less than 100 years and I have personally witnessed our small twigs of a tree becoming 80 foot giants. Change, for sure. I have photographs of two seedlings transported to the front yard that are now 80 feet tall.
Things change, trees grow - not seeing the connection to climate change.

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Now imagine a 20,000 foot tall mountain in the Appalachians... ground down to under 5,000 feet with the other debris becoming the East Coast. It takes time to do this. Not our lifetime or ten or a thousand... but much, much more. Can this be proven with a video or photographs... yes, if you understand cause and effects of time on solids.
Erosion happens, mountains change. Still nothing to do with climate change over the short term caused by pollution.

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When you travel from the East coast to the West coast, you actually are traveling through time. Evidence is actually right below your two feet, yet ignored and called scenery. The colors and textures and components of the rocks ARE Climate Change at its best. You just did not know. It is not taught in Business School or Law School or... for that fact, High School as well. No wonder we find ourselves so gullible.
Really! The geologic origin of the USA is not taught in American high schools? That's hard to believe! You make it sound like teachers throw a couple of pretty photos up on the screen and describe it as scenery!
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The Earth at one time was had a Carbon Dioxide atmosphere. True, check it out.
Nothing to do with current pollution creating climate change.
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When plants thrived to use CO2 and in the process of photosynthesis had a waste product Oxygen we benefited. Check out the Red Beds of the Permian/Triassic.
Nothing to do with current pollution creating climate change. We benefit from the oxygen produced by plants, but they need the oxygen too.
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It is not all that confusing, unless you are selling something. Climate Change has existed and will continue with or without your participation. Life on this planet have come and gone multiple times. We see ourselves as the top of the life cycle today, yet the cockroach has existed much longer as it looks today. Flies, mosquitos, butterflies... birds... they all precede humans among the layers of rocks.
Climate change has nothing to do with selling anything, unless you're trying to sell a conspiracy theory. Or are you saying that anyone who doesn't understand your argument is confused because they are selling something?
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When you read about Climate Change or Global Warming... do some research yourself. Most people would not know that concrete is made from secretions from ocean sediments... probably 80% would not have a clue.
Why do you keep insulting people? I don't know how many people understand that concrete is made from limestone, but that has nothing to do with climate change! Although the manufacturing process of concrete does add significant CO2 to the air, so there is a connection there.
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Science, Physics and Mathematics can be tested and shown to be true, or not. Opinions... well, are just that. My opinion is not worth any more or less than the next guy's opinion... but find yourself looking at layers of ocean sediments with sea shells on the tops of Mountains in the Rocky Mountains... it needs more explaining than this little tease I offer to you.
Human influence on climate change is far from being just an opinion! And with all respect to your experience as a geologist I have to put more faith in people who are actually climate scientists.
Multiple studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals show that 97 percent or more of actively publishing climate scientists agree: Climate-warming trends over the past century are very likely due to human activities. In addition, most of the leading scientific organizations worldwide have issued public statements endorsing this position.
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Old 11-28-2015, 09:38 PM   #28
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Global Geological Climate Change... Conference

AGW is based entirely on models, there is not a lick of hard evidence that will back the notion that trace concentrations of CO2 can have any impact on heating or heat retention at all.

(This is of course the root of the theory)

This is just a fact.

Add to this that there has been no warming over near the past 20 years...

And add to this the fraud and manipulation of those who desire to tax energy....

It is not, and never has been about climate, it is about money and control.


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