G W Bush...

[garry]

Enough already !!!

I think NASA should have a bigger budget.

Garry

[Silvertwinkie]

You know, I gotta jump in here. The environment is important, but so is the economy. The treaty as it stood only covered some of the members, China has a BOOMING economy. If you look at most of the stuff you buy, you'll see a crapload with the made in China label on it. If you really want even more business to go abroad, the treaty as it stood was a good way to do it. Heck half the countries hero, John Kerry, he planned on bringing jobs back to our country right? Was he going to start by having his wife bring the Heinz jobs back to the US? I also wonder how much more Heinz makes by not having to follow emission laws in the countries they operate plants. I guess my point is that it isn't fair to make one guy the bad guy...politicians by definition are dishonest folks. If they ain't kissin babies, they are stealing their lollypops!

An important thing to remember here is that we had 8 years of Clinton, and before that 12 years between Ronnie and George Sr. To lay it solely on George W is reckless and irresponsible. Again, I'll simply ask here, how many of us are towing with electric cars or have not used any petro in any form, LP, natural gas, gasoline, oil, etc. See it's easy to lay blame on one guy for all our problems, but really, if folks were big on the environment, they'd practice what they preach. I for one, love to go RVing and use a 6.0L Suburban that if I'm lucky will get 10mpg per gallon. I also keep the thermostat at approx 72 degrees. I cook and shower thanks to a several thousand cubic feet of natural gas a year....not to mention the countless tanks of LP I consume with the Airstream each year.

Let me take it one step further, do you really, honestly think after all the decades we've been shoving greenhouse gasses that we stand a chance of getting it under control in 10 years? Let me put it into perspective for you. When cars first were created, they were heavy pollution devices. Now we have all kinds of emission controls on all our cars, yet there are thousands of percents more cars on the road. So at the very best, we maintain the status quo, with the only exception that it's monitored more and even then there are way around that, which I actively take part in as well.

It's like vegetarians, won't eat meat, but sure love those leather seat or better yet some Jewish girl I dated back in high school. Her family wouldn't buy German cars because of the Holocaust, but they regularly bought Japanese cars and Italian goods (axis powers of WW2) several times per year.

You start locally and think globally. If you aren't doing your local part, don't blame anyone but yourself since you're part of the problem.

[Stefrobrts]

The Stats site is a wonderful place to see the science behind the news. This article on Global Warming is very interesting. I recommend everyone take a quick look at it. It's short.

http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=news&ID=119

Things are never as cut & dried as we'd like.

[tinsltootsie]

As a teacher and a parent, the best lessons are the ones we live. Do as I do. If we continue to arm ourselves, but demand others to disarm, to me it makes no sense. I know we need to be strong, but pick the fights. Iraq was not our war. Afghanistan was. Where is Bin Laden?
Why did they mutilate our dead and behead their captives? To demoralize our nation. I don't have the answers, but I really feel Mr. Bush hasn't a clue. And unfortunately, I hate to see where else he takes us with his talk of freedom.
I know we have a great country, but there are many other great cultures out there that we need to allow them the "freedom" to continue their beliefs.....even if they are not Christian. How did our freeedom evolve? Did some great empire come to emancipate us, our blacks, our native americans, and our women? Hell no! And if they had, we would have been totally pissed off!!! Let's hope somebody has the answer.

[gryphon]

errrr, what was you saying??

The thing is W wants to spread freedom. Which is not a bad thing. But, on one hand he encourages trade with China. China is still a communist country. They still encourage abortions of female babies. They barely allow a living wage for employees working for our businesses. And the products we buy that are made in china cost way too much considering how much businesses pay to have them made.
They prosecute christians and they are still atheist. Bad on humane rights.
They are still our enemy (if that is the correct word?)


This thread is very interesting, and at times funny.
MAC/COKE/DODGE/BLUE/DIESEL/DQ/GREEN/MSNBC/LIBERAL, what are the other sides to take?

[Big Dee]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

Now we have all kinds of emission controls on all our cars, yet there are thousands of percents more cars on the road. So at the very best, we maintain the status quo, with the only exception that it's monitored more and even then there are way around that

I swore I would not post in this thread but...

Here in the Bay Area, our air is much cleaner then it was twenty years ago. Even with the huge increase in number of cars. This is due to all the strict emmission control laws. A government study just proved this, as I already knew. We almost never have "smog alerts" anymore. When I was a kid, we had them all the time.

It's all about oil! I think that Twink makes a good point that we shouldn't be hypocrites. We shake our heads about the war but then we go about our lives consuming vast qauntities of oil, especially in our Airstream pursuits. Bush thought the war would be paid by Iraqi oil and we would have a great source of cheap oil after the invasion. It didn't work according to plan. Go figure.

Opps, I've said too much already.

[Davydd]

Now its global warming. In my lifetime the world has doubled in population and it isn't going to stop. As Big Dee points out it is a much cleaner today. Pittsburghers, for instance, can now see the sun and the real color of their buildings. Personally, I don't think government can control as much as we think, but maybe tokenly fix a few things and delay the inevitable. Paradigm shifts to new technology may be the only saving grace starting with the potential end of oil and gasoline use. Maybe it was technology advancement and economic change that cleaned up the Bay Area and Pittsburgh more than government. And despite what we do, a Krakatoa or even a massive sunspot could undo all we do. Glacier Bay glaciers started receding in the 18th Century long before the Industrial Age could have a causative effect.

OK, I was just wondering when this thread was going to shift over to social security.

[Silvertwinkie]

There is no question things have gotten better, particularly if you were at the brink of disaster. Lake Erie is a great example. Here in the Chicagoland area, it hasn't gotten any better. It is true that the great lakes have improved dramatically, however, we still have ozone action days and the number of those grows daily and the great lakes still are no where near where they were 4 or 5 decades ago. BTW, CARB, although they seem to set the standard, the rest of the country is behind the curve where CA. currently finds itself. I find it's about 3 or so years behind CA...as the old saying goes in the car nut clubs...so says CARB, so says the country.

I wish I had a better answer, truely I do, but in the end Davydd is correct, technology will be our only saving grace as there is little doubt in my mind that as population continues to grow dramatically (look how most schools are beyond capacity), consuption will continue to increase as well. Hydrogen powered vehicles among other things would be a great improvement IMHO.

Besides Social Security which I don't bet will be around, I'd love to hear what folks think about the power (electricity) shortages and the old infrastructure that delivers it.

[markdoane]

I'm not in denial. I suspect that global warming is well underway. But that doesn't convince me that the Kyoto Accord is the solution. At best, it will give everyone a false sense of security that we identified the problem and fixed it. NOT SO! We are going to need the paradigm shifts such as hydrogen power, reforestation, wind power, and other technologies we don't know about yet.

At worse, the Kyoto Accord will be another 'Oil for Food' program that is abused, ripped-off, and manipulated to benefit a few rich corporations and tyrant governments

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by markdoane

At worse, the Kyoto accord will be another 'Oil for Food' program that is abused, ripped-off, and manipulated to benefit a few rich corporations and tyrant governments

I so agree with these comments.

[Rob30044]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

Heck half the countries hero, John Kerry, he planned on bringing jobs back to our country right? Was he going to start by having his wife bring the Heinz jobs back to the US? I also wonder how much more Heinz makes by not having to follow emission laws in the countries they operate plants. I guess my point is that it isn't fair to make one guy the bad guy...politicians by definition are dishonest folks.

I don't think that John Kerry has any controll over the Heinz Company. The company was long in place before he married Teresa. The heir to the Heinz company was Teresa's late husband Sen. H. John Heinz III. He was a Republican and IMO a greater man than George W. Bush.

Ben

[flamingo-kid1]

[QUOTE=leefields]has lasted a long time....

i spend a lot of time lurking in the background, most of the posts i spend time on are more informative to me as i seek out particular information....

but, ....having said that....the "left" annoy the 'H' out of me at times....and maybe more so the "right" who are either timid or too afraid to stand up and say what is on their minds, .....


3. the borders....close them off....completely. Activate the national guards in the border states and post men every couple of miles...fly helo's with heat sensing and night vision lenses...3000-4000 per day crossing from mexico alone...what are we stupid...close the borders..let everyone who wants to leave...just go, go back home...see your family, file your papers to come here and request a job and wait for an answer...if you stay here...no drivers license, no job, no social security, if arrested for any reason....deportation, health care that will be billed to you...no school for you or your children, no beer sales, no gun sales, no car sales, ....no airline tickets, no gas purchase, no bank accounts....nothing. go back home and develope your 3rd world country as best as you can...it will never get better if everyone keeps leaving.

QUOTE]

Might I inquire as to where your grandparents, or great-grandparents immigrated from? Or are they Native American Indians?

[Silvertwinkie]

Yes, but Ms. Heinz-Kerry, you know the one who has a REAL job, is married to a Democrat and acts like a Republican. Folks say that George should clean his own house, and my point in all that was the do as I say and not as I do type thing I saw John Kerry family/camp doing. Not saying George was any better, but folks had this false sense of security thinking that John was the savior of the country when in fact his wife's interest in the Heinz Empire was totally hypocritical to John's overall game plan on environment and bringing jobs back to this country. We are slowly becoming a service economy.

As for the border comment, I will say this, though I don't agree fully with the essence of the comment, I will note this....

With all the budget shortfalls going on, do folks really realize how much money is spent on illegal folks? Let me ponit out that it's well into the millions, and that might not even take into account those folks that are placed in the correctional systems or the current costs of patrol and enforcement of the immigration laws. The boarder states of our southern neighbors have the worst situation and are bleeding cash like stuck pigs over this single issue. Again, I have no solutions, but simply pointing out a few things to add to the conversation.

[silver suz]

I'm glad things are getting better in other parts of the country. Not so in TX. The pollution is terrible. 40% of the kids in this area have asthma and now oil and gas co.s can drill on your property as long as they are 200' away from your house. The land owner has NO rights. This is happening all around us. We got a letter last week about our back two acres. ^ bureaucrats (as they identified themselves) in Austin say TX totally supports the oil and gas co.s The individual has no rights. And concidentially the letter arrived on the same day as my new (more) solar panels. The only thing they suggested it I get a personal lawyer so my family might get benefits on my wrongful death. So that's why I call my new airstream "The Escape Pod", as drilling could start in as early as 2 weeks. Anyone who knows of any helpful suggestions (Silvertwinkie you are not allowed ANY suggestions), I certainly would appreciate it. As I am feeling rather lost in having to fight the state of TX. Thanks, Silver Suz
P.S. the next big area of fighting will be in Indonesia, caused by outside well trained Islamic militants.

[flamingo-kid1]

I want to add something positive to this thread.
I see NO CLEAR SOLUTION to any of the things we have been discussing.

I DO know, however, that we live in the most beautiful country in the world, and no one is going to show up at any of our doors and haul us away for ranting and raving and agreeing and disagreeing on this forum.
We can vent and express opinion freely, and hopefully we can show respect for each other, whether we are "blue" or "red."

[Stefrobrts]

Do you realize how much the orchard industry alone depends on the cheap illegal labor which follows the crops around through N CA, OR, and WA state? There are a lot of big money industries that don't want anything done about illegals, no matter what kind of noises they make to the contrary. The immigration cops bust their farms and warehouses and drag away the illegals to be deported, much to the annoyance of the businesses which get disrupted until they can refill those jobs - though the businesses are never held responsible for hiring them in the first place. The businesses are treated like victims, and they go hire some more illegals. At least that's what we saw when we lived in Yakima, WA, apple country.

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by silver suz

Anyone who knows of any helpful suggestions (Silvertwinkie you are not allowed ANY suggestions), I certainly would appreciate it. As I am feeling rather lost in having to fight the state of TX. Thanks, Silver Suz

Gotcha....thought never even crossed my mind.

[Over59]

Originally Posted by bredlo

Gotcha, I stand corrected.

With all due respect, (and my own fear that you may indeed be proven right,) that's why we need people running our countries that simply won't sit back and accept that outcome. We need the vision in America that brought us out from under England's thumb, reunited a country broken in two, and that delivered us to the moon, Mars, and now Titan. It's a giant challenge, and one that may ultimately prove impossible to survive - for the literally universal forces involved, and for our character flaws as a species (as you mention,) but there is an answer out there somewhere. We must see beyond the end of the internal combustion engine, past the limits of what will be immediately financially profitable, and perhaps beyond the borders of our very planet to find it... but an answer is out there and if we apply ourselves, we won't be forced to succumb to a sad, cold death.

I fear that you put your finger on the problem. I believe the answer is not "out there". That's the difference. The answer is where the problem is, within each of us. "Out there" thinking is the problem, not the solution. You see it's a form of shifting responsibility to someone elses actions or lack of actions. Want to fit it. Stop using more than you "need" for basic survival. Then sell the rest of us on it..

[markdoane]

Before we go sounding off about our 'south of the border' neighbors, we better get a good count of how many are earning their citizenship by serving bravely in our armed services.

[TBKP's Overlander]

I bet there are a few guys wanted by the police in Lee's area. I wonder if he is all for carpet bombing his town.