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Old 08-30-2005, 02:19 PM   #379
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anyone whose mind has been changed in the slightest by all these cogent & carefully civil arguments ...

... please raise your hand!
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Old 08-30-2005, 03:40 PM   #380
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yeah kiddo, it has changed my mind about a few things.

the moonbat kooky left is now fully in charge of the democratic party. how else can howard the scream dean be in charge.

just look at the lingo they use: terrorists are now freedom fighters.

if the left doesn't stop running against bush now they will not only lose the next election, but the next 10!

doesn't bother me in the least!

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Old 08-30-2005, 04:20 PM   #381
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Nor I, the Dems are shooting themselves in the foot

with their radical leftist views.
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Old 08-30-2005, 04:30 PM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by summerkid
anyone whose mind has been changed in the slightest by all these cogent & carefully civil arguments ...

... please raise your hand!
I think carefully civil arguements are the only way to change people's minds. It's a slow process. People may start out saying "I'll listen to what you have to say, but it won't change my mind" but over time, if the arguements are well thought out, and the people who make them are respectable people who you know and trust, then you may begin to at least see where the other side is coming from, and eventually begin to see the truth of the matter.

People who think they can change peoples minds by screaming, name callling, accusatory arguements, and ultimatums like 'love it or leave it', will never do anything but put people on the offensive and make them dig in further. Extremism hurts our country. Respectful discussions of differing opinions can only make us stronger.

And yes, I have heard some convincing arguments here from people I respect, and it has changed my mind about some issues.
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Old 08-30-2005, 04:49 PM   #383
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We certainly don't deserve to know every detail of government, but I guess I lost my trust in government when I saw the manipulation of local govenrment and also the slant from the media. If decisions are made at the local level for personal gain, then why not at a higher level ? Certainly the gains are greater......

As to Congress voting for the war, wasn't it a vote to give our president the right to declare war? I viewed that as giving the executive branch a certain leverage in bargaining, or threats made.

To be sure, we have all made up our minds, and there will be no changes. I guess this is just an opportunity to express our thoughts. Or perhaps learn of others. I know I will look into the congressional resolution and the 98 regime change for some more facts. But once again, it is our perception, and it takes a lot to change that. Enjoy the meatloaf!
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Old 08-30-2005, 05:02 PM   #384
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This is a great country. It numbers its citizens from every country and religion in the world. We have stopped listening to one another and caring enough to understand the other person's perspective. Right and wrong are not as absolute as we'd like to think. History writes who is shown in which light.

Both the Dems and Republicans have extremists, and it is inappropriate to label an entire party platform as untenable because of the far right or far left. Some folks who belong to the party who brought us the crooked King, Richard Nixon and that has apparently been strongly influenced by folks like Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell are screaming about how unbelievable the Democratic leadership is.

The truth is that all of these issues are incredibly complex and inextricably intertwined. No single individual is responsible for all of the ills of our world. This administration inherited problems generated by the Clinton adminisration. The Nixon administration inherited VietNam from Eisenhower. That's just the way it is.

The question into the future, though, is whether or not we can listen to one another's viewpoints and come away with enough of each to make good policy for everyone. My biggest complaint about the current administration is it's "My way or the Highway" perspective. A presidency and congress both of the same party is a ticket to disaster, regardless of which party has control. This particular President concerns me because of his apparent unwillingness to listen to counsel other than his own, and has in fact fired every advisor who disagreed with him.

I am a minor "government executive" as well. I tell my people to kick, scream and shout for their perspective. If I'm about to walk off a cliff on an issue, I want to know that I'm walking off the cliff. I don't want the first indication that I'm over the edge to be the rocks that I hit. I tell them that I may choose a course of action for reasons other than what they see, and once I make a decision, they all take ownership... but up until I make that decision I want to know about every dissenting view and why that employee holds it. That policy has saved my bacon more times than I care to count. I don't see that in our current administration.

On top of that, I'm having difficulty seeing balanced management policies. If you go through the cabinet positions and most of the senior staff positions, they ALL come from a big oil background. Where's the diversity of thought here? Are there no competent managers from steel, the auto industry, aerospace, publishing, or manufacturing any longer?

And what's the deal about demanding a 'conservative' on the supreme court? Isn't a Supreme Court justice supposed to rule on the constitutionality of issues based on law rather than espouse a party line... EITHER party?

So... bash away, but rather than merely arguing about who might do what to whom... or indulging in name calling for sport, lets see some policy discussion... I challenge you folks to justify your positions with good solid research and logic; more than just "he said so and I believe it."

Roger
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Old 08-30-2005, 05:15 PM   #385
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rog

nice post. but you are incorrect.

Quote:
Both the Dems and Republicans have extremists, and it is inappropriate to label an entire party platform as untenable because of the far right or far left.
the media has aready labeled my party as extremists, so we got that side covered.

the other side is just learning now that the kooks are in charge what it is like to lose election after election. and watching in horror as the entire country continues to turn right.

wonder why? perhaps it is the leadership.

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Old 08-30-2005, 05:27 PM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefrobrts
I think carefully civil arguements are the only way to change people's minds. It's a slow process. People may start out saying "I'll listen to what you have to say, but it won't change my mind" but over time, if the arguements are well thought out, and the people who make them are respectable people who you know and trust, then you may begin to at least see where the other side is coming from, and eventually begin to see the truth of the matter.

People who think they can change peoples minds by screaming, name callling, accusatory arguements, and ultimatums like 'love it or leave it', will never do anything but put people on the offensive and make them dig in further. Extremism hurts our country. Respectful discussions of differing opinions can only make us stronger.

And yes, I have heard some convincing arguments here from people I respect, and it has changed my mind about some issues.

...really?
(sitting here with my mouth hanging open)
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Old 08-30-2005, 05:27 PM   #387
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You all know how I feel....no sense in re-hashing it, but I am still waiting on our little bet Rog.
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Old 08-30-2005, 05:57 PM   #388
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gwb

Quote:
Originally Posted by 85MH325
The truth is that all of these issues are incredibly complex and inextricably intertwined. No single individual is responsible for all of the ills of our world. This administration inherited problems generated by the Clinton adminisration. The Nixon administration inherited VietNam from Eisenhower. That's just the way it is.
Good point. I wish more Reps & Dems realised this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 85MH325
The question into the future, though, is whether or not we can listen to one another's viewpoints and come away with enough of each to make good policy for everyone. My biggest complaint about the current administration is it's "My way or the Highway" perspective. A presidency and congress both of the same party is a ticket to disaster, regardless of which party has control. This particular President concerns me because of his apparent unwillingness to listen to counsel other than his own, and has in fact fired every advisor who disagreed with him.
Not so. But yes, this president is a hard-assed businessman. Not a lawyer as are most of our politicians. The idea of letting a tribe of attorneys apply our laws has always been frightening to me. He's surrounded himself with some of the best on earth and people he is familiar with both from business and from his father. Hell, if it were me, Id do the same thing. When the firestorm comes you want to know that the guy in the hole next to you is gonna get your back. If he panics and tries to run or screams he's killed you both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 85MH325
I am a minor "government executive" as well. I tell my people to kick, scream and shout for their perspective. If I'm about to walk off a cliff on an issue, I want to know that I'm walking off the cliff. I don't want the first indication that I'm over the edge to be the rocks that I hit. I tell them that I may choose a course of action for reasons other than what they see, and once I make a decision, they all take ownership... but up until I make that decision I want to know about every dissenting view and why that employee holds it. That policy has saved my bacon more times than I care to count. I don't see that in our current administration.

On top of that, I'm having difficulty seeing balanced management policies. If you go through the cabinet positions and most of the senior staff positions, they ALL come from a big oil background. Where's the diversity of thought here? Are there no competent managers from steel, the auto industry, aerospace, publishing, or manufacturing any longer?
These guys, again, are trusted and familiar. Theres no afterthought about loyalty. I'd do the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 85MH325
And what's the deal about demanding a 'conservative' on the supreme court? Isn't a Supreme Court justice supposed to rule on the constitutionality of issues based on law rather than espouse a party line... EITHER party?
Your point is absolutely correct and it SHOULD be that way IDEALLY. That way of thinking ASSUMES the other team will ALSO play fair. They don't. So what we're left with results in almost the same ideal outcome in which each side tries to get people who slant toward them...we end up split down the middle and most decisions are somewhere in between and well-rounded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 85MH325
So... bash away, but rather than merely arguing about who might do what to whom... or indulging in name calling for sport, lets see some policy discussion... I challenge you folks to justify your positions with good solid research and logic; more than just "he said so and I believe it."
One of the things I like most about W, given all his flaws...yes he does have 'em...is that he is not easily influenced. This world AND our political system is chock full of fair-weathered people. They change their opinions and positions at the first sign of resistance or at a sway in the polls...George stays the course regardless...and I have to say I admire that quality in a person's constitution.
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Old 08-30-2005, 06:01 PM   #389
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We have stopped listening to one another and caring enough to understand the other person's perspective.
Roger, I think you hit that one right on.
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Old 08-30-2005, 06:16 PM   #390
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rog

i do agree with 99.8% of what you posted. except what i posted above.

i always enjoy a sensible discussion of politics. so in the relm of bipartisanship lets start with your challenge.

Quote:
I challenge you folks to justify your positions with good solid research and logic;
lets start with the 9/11 commission, particularly the "wall" memo. how can your party defend knowledge of the 9/11 terrorists not being passed on to the FBI because a clinton staffer decided to prevent information sharing?

i submit that we wouldn't be in this mess now if the clintonistas had done a better job.

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Old 08-30-2005, 07:29 PM   #391
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I can't, nor can anyone else. It's a waste of energy to try, yet that's exactly what's happening with BOTH parties. It's the same stupidity as "spinning" the intel on Saddam's WMDs to meet somebody's (W's?) expectations. It's as stupid as Clinton's "I never had sexual relations with that woman" and Nixon's "I am not a crook" speeches. So, let's admit we AS A GOVERNMENT have made both huge management AND intelligence faux-pas on BOTH sides of the aisle and move on. Once again, rather than assessing blame, we need to figure out what to fix. Homeland Security is an absolute sham. We should be breaking down and eliminating layers of bureaucracy to make our intelligence, law enforcement, and anti-terrorism efforts more lean and flexible and better able to respond as required, not building layer after layer of more bureaucracy for the folks who are doing the work to have to navigate.

An organization is most effective and efficient if there are no more than four levels of management; three levels between the top guy and the folks doing the work. If W is the hard-line business guy he's presented to be, why is government floundering in increasing bureaucracy? Why would an intel analyst fear for his job for analyzing rather than reporting what someone in the bureaucracy wants to hear?

We need to listen to our allies rather than being quite so cock-sure about our own abilities. We were told by just about every ally that has an intelligence service that our intel was flawed. We didn't listen, and in fact tried to convince all of them that WE were right. With 20/20 hindsight... we now know how wrong we were. That arrogance has not furthered our position on the world stage.

Chikagurl, while loyalty is valuable, insight is priceless and they are very different qualities. Selecting advisors for loyalty tends only to promote "yes" men. Gathering around you folks of insight allows for that free thought exchange on a policy making level that manages crises. Loyalty is earned, and can be given even by folks of very different thought.

John Kennedy (and although he was a Dem, the party issue is irrelevent for this example) had many, many flaws... but his handling of the Cuban Missle Crisis was nothing short of brilliant, and he got input from some brilliant free thinkers who were loyal to him to a fault, but were also willing to argue with him. We need some out-of-the-box thinking right now.


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Old 08-30-2005, 08:06 PM   #392
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excellent post rog!

well thought out!

kudos,

john
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