G W Bush...

[thenewkid64]

Originally Posted by StingrayL82

The whole point of states' rights is the autonomy to self-govern. The responsibility of what happened down South shouldn't fall on just one person's shoulders. What safeguards and contingencies did the local authorities of Louisiana have in place for this type of disaster? What about the Governor of Louisiana and his staff? Those are questions I'd like to see answered, rather than just be angry and place needless blame.

This is exactly why I pay very little attention to the reporters and such that ask the White House "what are they going to do about......?" If the state asks for help then the Federal government can and will help. The STATE is responsible for disaster planing within it''s own borders. If we are going to rely on the Federal government to do it all then we no longer need a state house and state government.

I also do not see how anyone can expect civilian support and rescue staff to basically fly into what has become a war zone and risk their lives to try to help. If we send in the national guard then and establish ROE, once the guys in the choppers start firing back it will not be pretty. Those that want help should get it. Those that are going to try to force someone to help deserve to rot in my opinion.

BTW IMHO they had time to get out, the evacuations were called for 3 to 4 days before the hurricane hit. Even if you are walking, 3 to 4 days would have gotten them out of the worst of the storms fury, but since they stayed behind it is now up to the "government " to save many of them from their own folly...........

Sorry to rant, but I am a proponent of personal responsibility. If there is a threat I can avoid (Hurricane) it is up to ME to take any possible plan of action to protect my family and myself from harm. Sitting on the couch and waiting for the storm to hit, then saying the government has to help me is not, to me, a socially responsible way to deal with the threat. There will always be people that need help, they should get it. But there are plenty or able bodied people (look at how much loot they can carry out of a store) that stayed behind. These people should not be the burden they are on the rescue efforts. The rescue efforts need to to be able to spend their time on the truly needy, the sick, infirm, children, etc.

I feel for the people of New Orleans, but I also think that if they had paid a little more attention to what was being broadcast, and acted on it, they would not be in the state they are today.

[ALANSD]

at my elementary school the assistant Principal was called to New Orleans with his Army Reserve unit. he flies Huey Helicopters. He is expected to be there a month.
(PS He has five kids of his own ages 1-6)

[Silvertwinkie]

Also would like to add that the media makes issue that are bad, even seem worse. Case in point, I have a friend that is a New Orleans junkie. A lot of the places they say are totally underwater aren't accurate...particularly when speaking about the French Quarter.

Fact is that there is a fair amount of drama added by the media. This is not saying that some of the items are or aren't happening, but next time you turn the news provider of your choice, you hear the dramatic music and they show you the worst possible picutres....but what they don't show or talk about are the many, many dry areas or areas that have only ankle deep water. Why, it doesn't sell ad space as well as shoving a camera and a microphone in someones face that hasn't had a good night sleep, any food or water in 2-3 days...basically only interviewing one group of people.....and before you know it, there is only one helicopter evactuating people, 3 busses and 10 bottles of water airlifted.

I am also in full agreement with Bretts comments on taking personal responsibility for one's self. I think this fits at least 90% of the folks stranded down there, the other 10% being folks who really had no way or means to get out. Again, the govenments fault? IMHO, not at all.....

[bluvalley]

The media is bad??? what? Do you really believe that what is happening down there is somehow overdramatized by the media? Do you really believe that these reports are inaccurate? Oh My God. That is the most ridiculous, closed minded thing I have ever heard. Personal responsibility? Ohhhh now that's harsh. Wow, I used to really enjoy my time spent on these boards reading the experiences of other Airstreamers like myself and thinking what a great group we all are. Not any more.

What about this:

Why wasn't more preventive action taken? After 2003 the Army Corps of Engineers sharply slowed its flood-control work, including work on sinking levees. "The corps," an Editor and Publisher article says, citing a series of articles in The Times-Picayune in New Orleans, "never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security - coming at the same time as federal tax cuts - was the reason for the strain."

The National Guard does not have enough equipment to help because it's all in IRAQ. But I suppose you think that is just media hype also.

So long Airstream forums.

[thenewkid64]

Originally Posted by bluvalley

Personal responsibility? Ohhhh now that's harsh. Wow, I used to really enjoy my time spent on these boards reading the experiences of other Airstreamers like myself and thinking what a great group we all are. Not any more.

I would have to say that my opinion is MINE not the forums. But if you took a straw poll of most Airstreamers, especially those in the WBCCI they would say many of the same things...

Here is part of the reason I have adopted my position on it.

Nagin orders mandatory evacuation in face of Katrina

10:11 AM CDT on Sunday, August 28, 2005


WWLTV.com

Mayor Ray Nagin ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city of New Orleans in the face of Category-5 Katrina which was expected to make a direct strike on the city early Monday.

Nagin said that the predicted tidal surges and heavy rains could mean widespread flooding and power outages that could last for some time.

The order extends to everyone in the city of New Orleans with the following exceptions: Essential military and law enforcement personnel from the city and state, regulated utilities employees, essential members of the media, hospital employees and their patients, medical personnel, Criminal Sheriff's personnel and inmates and hotels and their patrons.

Nagin said the city could and would commandeer any property or vehicle it deemed necessary to provide safe shelter or transport for those in need.

He also opened the Louisiana Superdome as a shelter of last resort that would begin accepting people around Noon. He said the Dome would have few supplies and that people were expected to bring food and other necessary items. RTA buses were going to be sent to pick up those going to shelters at designated pickup points.

Nagin discouraged staying in the Superdome, saying that people would not have access to power and possibly plumbing.


Then I read this from BEFORE the hurricane hit. from a consolidated wired news piece.

Despite the dire predictions, a group of residents in a poor neighborhood of central New Orleans sat on a porch with no car, no way out and, surprisingly, no fear.

"We're not evacuating," said Julie Paul, 57. "None of us have any place to go. We're counting on the Superdome. That's our lifesaver."

The 70,000-seat Superdome, the home of football's Saints, opened at daybreak Sunday, giving first priority to frail, elderly people on walkers, some with oxygen tanks. They were told to bring enough food, water and medicine to last up to five days.

They were told to EVACUATE. They decided not to because they they had no other place to go. The MANDATORY evacuation did not say go someplace better, just go.

They were also told to bring 5 days of supplies. Today is day 5, and they are getting the people out as fast as possible.

If you want to complain about how the government is not supporting our own infrastructure , IE the levees, etc Look at on example I culled in 5 min of searching....

BACK FROM THE GRAVE: PORK!

There is plenty of blame to spread around on the whys of the cutting funding to the corps of engineers. Iraq is not the whole reason, part yes, but blaming the floods and such in New Orleans on the expenditures in Iraq is not completely accurate, IMHO.

[chikagurl]

Originally Posted by bluvalley

The media is bad??? what? Do you really believe that what is happening down there is somehow overdramatized by the media? Do you really believe that these reports are inaccurate? Oh My God. That is the most ridiculous, closed minded thing I have ever heard. Personal responsibility? Ohhhh now that's harsh. Wow, I used to really enjoy my time spent on these boards reading the experiences of other Airstreamers like myself and thinking what a great group we all are. Not any more.

What about this:

Why wasn't more preventive action taken? After 2003 the Army Corps of Engineers sharply slowed its flood-control work, including work on sinking levees. "The corps," an Editor and Publisher article says, citing a series of articles in The Times-Picayune in New Orleans, "never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security - coming at the same time as federal tax cuts - was the reason for the strain."

The National Guard does not have enough equipment to help because it's all in IRAQ. But I suppose you think that is just media hype also.

So long Airstream forums.

BYE-BYE

[chikagurl]

Originally Posted by thenewkid64

Sorry to rant, but I am a proponent of personal responsibility. If there is a threat I can avoid (Hurricane) it is up to ME to take any possible plan of action to protect my family and myself from harm. Sitting on the couch and waiting for the storm to hit, then saying the government has to help me is not, to me, a socially responsible way to deal with the threat. There will always be people that need help, they should get it. But there are plenty or able bodied people (look at how much loot they can carry out of a store) that stayed behind. These people should not be the burden they are on the rescue efforts. The rescue efforts need to to be able to spend their time on the truly needy, the sick, infirm, children, etc.

You're my hero today...couldnt have said it better.
In fact...it has been stated that quite a few of these folks ANTICIPATED the possibility of being able to exploit this situation for their own gain.

Yesterday afternoon, as I was filling up the truck at the last open gas station in my area with $3.50gal petro, a woman pulled up the wrong way at the pump in front of me. As she was attempting to back up and turn around another lady pulled in quickly and took the first lady's place. I walked up in front of the pump as the second woman was trying to steal the first womans place and pointed trying to explain NICELY & POLITELY that the other woman was there first...the woman got out of her car and the filth that spewed from her mouth was unbelieveable...threats, profanities...nevermind that I wanted to get back into my truck and just run her down in the parking lot....instead I just finished getting my gas and as I was leaving I stopped by the car of the woman who's place in line had been stolen and apologised to her and told her that she shouldnt have let the other person do that to her...all she could do was produce a sort of half smile and say "thank you so much"....
There's an old proverb that states something to the effect of "if you really want to find out what someone is made of...just put them in a crisis and watch."
I think thats what we are witnessing now.

[Silvertwinkie]

Yes, the media takes things too far and they have a bias as does any media outlet. It's up to the viewer/reader to draw conclusions based off the facts. The media clearly is over the top with the drama and don't report all the positives, just mostly the negs. You can always vote for Billary in 2008 and see if she does any better.

Well miss having you around, really.

BTW, on Fox news, some members of Congress are already talking about the reality of pumping tens of billions of dollars into rebuilding New Orleans since it's continually sinking. Who knows what'll happen, but (dramatic news update music on) stay tuned....same bat time, same bat channel.

BTW Brett, well put.

[azflycaster]

Can we agree to disagree and let this thread fade away into the sunset?
The internet has thousands of political sites, this is an airstream site.

(soapbox off)

[munimula]

Originally Posted by azflycaster

Can we agree to disagree and let this thread fade away into the sunset?
The internet has thousands of political sites, this is an airstream site.

(soapbox off)

It's easy enough for anyone to avoid reading a thread titled 'GW Bush.' Personally, I enjoy reading the different perspectives on how this disaster is being handled. I'm finding a more balanced look at this here than i do at CNN and Fox News.

--Dave

[CanoeStream]

azflycaster -- Oh!!! How totally I agree with you. I'd say 8 hours without a post and we should move on to .... anything else.

Hippo -- Movin' back to your 1:39AM post this last morning: You make Iraq seem like a punishment rather than a noble cause.

It's not just about New Orleans/Mississippi/Alabama relief. Our government's discretionary spending is going to the Middle East. I can tell you first-hand as a Veterans Administration employee that monies are significantly truncated from what they have been.

No Iraqis nor Iraqi-inspired people had anything to do with 9/11. The core cause lies more with Wahhabis from Saudi and other Pakistani groups -- our putative allies!! We have made an unholy alliance with our oil consumption. Remember a GWB declaring in 2000 and earlier 2001 that gas consumption was the American way of life?

I'll be all for sending war protesters to Iraq. Just as soon as Jenna & Barbara Bush, anybody with the last name of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Hastert, Frist or Lott are over there.

Nobody is being converted in this thread. No, we don't need these frustrations in Airstream Forums. A lot has been said. F*** it (the real 'nasty'). Close it! Be done with it!! Sorry, it had to be said.

[StingrayL82]

Originally Posted by [color=Blue

F*** it (the real 'nasty'). Close it! Be done with it!![/color] Sorry, it had to be said.

Yeah, what he said.


Frederic

[Silvertwinkie]

I say leave it open...I mean it's a riot how it gets the Democrats with conspiracy theories all riled up about Iraq, GW, big oil.

What I find even more interesting is these same folks would have also protested our entry into WWII.

Bottom line, to me it's a shame Bush can't run for a 3rd term cause there aren't any Republicans or Democrats I can see voting for in 2008 that will keep us on the offensive...lest we forget our tail between our legs 90's.....and how this whole mess got started in Iraq after all when Clinton kept hitting Saddam with a missle here and a missle there all the time the UN members and administrators were profiting from the oil for food program that didn't do squat for the Iraqis and did a world of good for Saddam and the corrupted individuals at the UN....but you're right we shouldn't have done anything...we should have let the sanctions work for another 10 years......not gone in when he invaded Kwait and continued to do nothing while he gassed the kurds and let him control a fair amount of the world oil supply and remain isolationists letting the UN take care of everything...

[CanoeStream]

Then let us aim the offensive in the right direction. Yes, Iraq became a terrorist (and Al Qaeda magnet). Tora Bora was a lost opportunity. I sure hope "they" are working under the table for empowering the common Saudi as much as they're trying to get a new Shia-Sunni-Kurd constitution written!

[chikagurl]

Originally Posted by Canoe stream

Nobody is being converted in this thread. No, we don't need these frustrations in Airstream Forums. A lot has been said. F*** it (the real 'nasty'). Close it! Be done with it!! Sorry, it had to be said.

No one is looking for "converts"
Who is this "we"?
It had to be said by....you?

You're cordially invited to visit any one of the several hundred OTHER
conversations taking place on various other topics.
I dont think anyone is twisting your arm to keep coming back here
torturing yourself to death.
It looks like some of us are enjoying hearing other peoples views and debating issues and viewpoints.

[chikagurl]

Originally Posted by micsupply

It's easy enough for anyone to avoid reading a thread titled 'GW Bush.' Personally, I enjoy reading the different perspectives on how this disaster is being handled. I'm finding a more balanced look at this here than i do at CNN and Fox News.

--Dave

me too....especially CNN

[munimula]

in that this is a GW Bush discussion - Katrina and the Bush Admin's lack of action to help the poor black of the South will prove to be the single Waterloo event that will wrestle away control of the House and Senate from the Right.

From what I read on Right Wing blogs is that the Right is freaking out over Bush's bungling of this disaster.

Regarding the relevence of this Bush thread at and Airstream Forum...I think what is going on is very relevent to Airstreaming - considering my trialer will be parked for the weekend becuase gas is now $4.00 a glallon and my Armada is a thirsty sucker when pulling my 34 foot - 9,000 pound trailer. I could suffer through $50 tank fill-ups without batting an eye, but now with a fill up cresting the $100 mark that 300 mile trip requires more thought. I feel GW is having a direct effect on my ability to enjoy my Airstream to the fullest.

I wouldn't question the President so much regarding fuel prices if we didn't know his business partners in the Carlisle Group were the Saud family themselves. What company is the most profitable in the World today????
-
-
-
-
-
Exxon.

--dave

[Silvertwinkie]

That's just plain nuts....I mean I'm in the same boat as everyone else with our Airstream in dry dock due to the high gas prices, but if you really think this is a GW issue, you had better do a bit more research. The whole planet is getting hit hard. No one man, regardless of contacts could drive prices up around the world to this level. If you think we have it bad here, go see what Europe is paying, it'll make you think we're back a 1.50 a gallon.

I've heard the same old song and dance before about the dems taking back the house, senate and white house....and you know, you may be right if the dems can stop attacking the Repbulicans and actually do something constructive (and pay for it)....the odds are though that it won't happen in time and we will be governed by either another Republican President or have House/Senate majority or both. Don't discount how badly the dems position has been these past 5-6 years....and there is no end in sight as with Dean is out there screaming and pushing political hot buttons....at some point soon, his CDL (carrer disapation light) will start to blink, if it hasn't already due to the dems finally realizing theirs has been going off regualrly with him where he is.......

One other thing I wanted to share about the corrupt UN was this that I saw today on CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/un.....ap/index.html

[Porky Pig]

Where's Dick Cheney?

I've been watching this horor show in New Orleans for several days now ... and listened to the President, Senators, Governors, Mayors ... police, firefighters, doctors, nurses ...

But no Vice-President. It's weird ... it's like the guy has just vanished.

[munimula]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

That's just plain nuts....I mean I'm in the same boat as everyone else with our Airstream in dry dock due to the high gas prices, but if you really think this is a GW issue, you had better do a bit more research. The whole planet is getting hit hard. No one man, regardless of contacts could drive prices up around the world to this level. If you think we have it bad here, go see what Europe is paying, it'll make you think we're back a 1.50 a gallon.

I've heard the same old song and dance before about the dems taking back the house, senate and white house....and you know, you may be right if the dems can stop attacking the Repbulicans and actually do something constructive (and pay for it)....the odds are though that it won't happen in time and we will be governed by either another Republican President or have House/Senate majority or both. Don't discount how badly the dems position has been these past 5-6 years....and there is no end in sight as with Dean is out there screaming and pushing political hot buttons....at some point soon, his CDL (carrer disapation light) will start to blink, if it hasn't already due to the dems finally realizing theirs has been going off regualrly with him where he is.......

One other thing I wanted to share about the corrupt UN was this that I saw today on CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/un.....ap/index.html

great reply!!! i'm well aware that the western european countryies that have limited home grown oil production have always paid much more for their gasoline than we have. what frustrates me about GW on the issue of oil his his complete lack of ackknowledment that it is even an issue - prior to Kartrina of course. Finally the reserves are being tapped into.

however, if you're not aware of the incredibly close ties the Bush family has to the Saud (and the bin ladens for that matter). I recommend you checking out the video at (sorry, no airstream cameos)...

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle3995.htm

i just have this weird feeling that when GW sits down at his desk in the morning that he is thinking more about his own and his cronies wallet's than he is of mine (firmly in the middle class) and the rest of the citizens of the USA. tax relief indeed. my '04 tax return check bought me my $20K airstream a few weeks back. i shouldn't be bitching about GW's policies but I see what going on both above me in the econnomic scale as well as below. it's gross on both accounts.

regarding your points on the dems - they have absolutely not been able to find a message since lewinski smoked clinton's cigar. however, i don't see them attacking the right at all. they need to do more of it and do it more effectively. as i heard tonight -- like a boxer pounding away at a cut above an opponents eye, the dems have to find that cut and just hammer away. the question is, who will wear the gloves?

all i know is I want to get back to $50 tank fill ups sooner rather than later. right now i feel like GW is amassing, however indirectly, incredible personal wealth on our backs. I just hope we find a politician who will look out more for the working middle class, a place where most of *my* airstream friends reside.