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Old 01-24-2005, 04:42 PM   #155
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Hey Brad,

About 12,000 years ago, the lovely place where I grew up was under a sheet of ice that was several miles thick. Yet as a child, I picked up basketloads of fossils of sea creatures from that area.

Now, unless you can convince me that the wooly mammoths and the sabretooth cats really got aggresive with their fuel burning, I can only conclude that climate changes drastically from time to time, and their ain't a thing we can do to stop it. Kyoto is an effort to make a tiny, tiny impact on something we don't understand. Even the models the enviros use disagree on what Kyoto might accomplish by an order of magnitude.

I firmly believe a better approach would be to think about how to handle drastic climate changes when they actually happen, like the year Krakatoa's explosion resulted in practically no growing season in North America.

My personal strategy involves making sure my Airstream works very, very well...
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Old 01-24-2005, 04:47 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by markdoane
The media has convinced us that the Kyoto accord is the ONLY way to prevent global collapse. When did the idea of buying and selling the right to pollute become the only solution? And why doesn't it apply to China?
Yeah, that darn media again. Always brainwashing us. I suppose they're also keeping hush-hush the solutions we've come up with that is superior to Kyoto? Until we come up with something better, we ought to try any viable solution instead of simply writing it off. And as for China, I guess you're prefer to play the kid that whines on the playground, "But what about him, Mommy? He doesn't haftuh!"

And Over59, I don't take every "report" as the gospel. I know there are doomsdayers all around. But I do have more respect for the overall intelligence of the international scientific community than I do for those currently in the White House. One day we're going to wake up to the headlines about a problem we can't simply throw money or troops at. Here's a clue: it's going to be big, irreversable, and it won't be hiding in a cave in Tora Bora.
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Old 01-24-2005, 04:55 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by AgZep
Hey Brad,

About 12,000 years ago, the lovely place where I grew up was under a sheet of ice that was several miles thick. Yet as a child, I picked up basketloads of fossils of sea creatures from that area.

Now, unless you can convince me that the wooly mammoths and the sabretooth cats really got aggresive with their fuel burning, I can only conclude that climate changes drastically from time to time, and their ain't a thing we can do to stop it. Kyoto is an effort to make a tiny, tiny impact on something we don't understand. Even the models the enviros use disagree on what Kyoto might accomplish by an order of magnitude.

I firmly believe a better approach would be to think about how to handle drastic climate changes when they actually happen, like the year Krakatoa's explosion resulted in practically no growing season in North America.

My personal strategy involves making sure my Airstream works very, very well...
I'm sure there are other great ways to handle the problem, I just haven't heard any from my government. America is still the world's worst polluter, and IMHO we should be authoring these treaties first, we should be first in line.

Yup, that next ice age will happen one day either way, I'm not arguing that. But with the studies I've seen about how quickly the process is being accelerated since the industrial revolution, why wouldn't we want to handle those drastic changes, and simultaneously postpone them?
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Old 01-24-2005, 05:04 PM   #158
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Brad you miss my point. It really is too late to avoid a major collapse and as a species we are too self serving to have a planned collapse. I believe that the conclusions of the report are valid even if some of the modeling was flawed.
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Old 01-24-2005, 05:19 PM   #159
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Brad you miss my point. It really is too late to avoid a major collapse and as a species we are too self serving to have a planned collapse. I believe that the conclusions of the report are valid even if some of the modeling was flawed.
Gotcha, I stand corrected.

With all due respect, (and my own fear that you may indeed be proven right,) that's why we need people running our countries that simply won't sit back and accept that outcome. We need the vision in America that brought us out from under England's thumb, reunited a country broken in two, and that delivered us to the moon, Mars, and now Titan. It's a giant challenge, and one that may ultimately prove impossible to survive - for the literally universal forces involved, and for our character flaws as a species (as you mention,) but there is an answer out there somewhere. We must see beyond the end of the internal combustion engine, past the limits of what will be immediately financially profitable, and perhaps beyond the borders of our very planet to find it... but an answer is out there and if we apply ourselves, we won't be forced to succumb to a sad, cold death.
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Old 01-24-2005, 05:20 PM   #160
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And as for China, I guess you're prefer to play the kid that whines on the playground, "But what about him, Mommy? He doesn't haftuh!"
You mean by putting it into a juvenile context that my point isn't valid?
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Old 01-24-2005, 05:21 PM   #161
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Enough already !!!

I think NASA should have a bigger budget.

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Old 01-24-2005, 05:40 PM   #162
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You know, I gotta jump in here. The environment is important, but so is the economy. The treaty as it stood only covered some of the members, China has a BOOMING economy. If you look at most of the stuff you buy, you'll see a crapload with the made in China label on it. If you really want even more business to go abroad, the treaty as it stood was a good way to do it. Heck half the countries hero, John Kerry, he planned on bringing jobs back to our country right? Was he going to start by having his wife bring the Heinz jobs back to the US? I also wonder how much more Heinz makes by not having to follow emission laws in the countries they operate plants. I guess my point is that it isn't fair to make one guy the bad guy...politicians by definition are dishonest folks. If they ain't kissin babies, they are stealing their lollypops!

An important thing to remember here is that we had 8 years of Clinton, and before that 12 years between Ronnie and George Sr. To lay it solely on George W is reckless and irresponsible. Again, I'll simply ask here, how many of us are towing with electric cars or have not used any petro in any form, LP, natural gas, gasoline, oil, etc. See it's easy to lay blame on one guy for all our problems, but really, if folks were big on the environment, they'd practice what they preach. I for one, love to go RVing and use a 6.0L Suburban that if I'm lucky will get 10mpg per gallon. I also keep the thermostat at approx 72 degrees. I cook and shower thanks to a several thousand cubic feet of natural gas a year....not to mention the countless tanks of LP I consume with the Airstream each year.

Let me take it one step further, do you really, honestly think after all the decades we've been shoving greenhouse gasses that we stand a chance of getting it under control in 10 years? Let me put it into perspective for you. When cars first were created, they were heavy pollution devices. Now we have all kinds of emission controls on all our cars, yet there are thousands of percents more cars on the road. So at the very best, we maintain the status quo, with the only exception that it's monitored more and even then there are way around that, which I actively take part in as well.

It's like vegetarians, won't eat meat, but sure love those leather seat or better yet some Jewish girl I dated back in high school. Her family wouldn't buy German cars because of the Holocaust, but they regularly bought Japanese cars and Italian goods (axis powers of WW2) several times per year.

You start locally and think globally. If you aren't doing your local part, don't blame anyone but yourself since you're part of the problem.
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Old 01-24-2005, 06:19 PM   #163
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The Stats site is a wonderful place to see the science behind the news. This article on Global Warming is very interesting. I recommend everyone take a quick look at it. It's short.

http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=news&ID=119

Things are never as cut & dried as we'd like.
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Old 01-24-2005, 06:28 PM   #164
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As a teacher and a parent, the best lessons are the ones we live. Do as I do. If we continue to arm ourselves, but demand others to disarm, to me it makes no sense. I know we need to be strong, but pick the fights. Iraq was not our war. Afghanistan was. Where is Bin Laden?
Why did they mutilate our dead and behead their captives? To demoralize our nation. I don't have the answers, but I really feel Mr. Bush hasn't a clue. And unfortunately, I hate to see where else he takes us with his talk of freedom.
I know we have a great country, but there are many other great cultures out there that we need to allow them the "freedom" to continue their beliefs.....even if they are not Christian. How did our freeedom evolve? Did some great empire come to emancipate us, our blacks, our native americans, and our women? Hell no! And if they had, we would have been totally pissed off!!! Let's hope somebody has the answer.
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Old 01-24-2005, 06:46 PM   #165
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errrr, what was you saying??

The thing is W wants to spread freedom. Which is not a bad thing. But, on one hand he encourages trade with China. China is still a communist country. They still encourage abortions of female babies. They barely allow a living wage for employees working for our businesses. And the products we buy that are made in china cost way too much considering how much businesses pay to have them made.
They prosecute christians and they are still atheist. Bad on humane rights.
They are still our enemy (if that is the correct word?)


This thread is very interesting, and at times funny.
MAC/COKE/DODGE/BLUE/DIESEL/DQ/GREEN/MSNBC/LIBERAL, what are the other sides to take?
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Old 01-24-2005, 06:54 PM   #166
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Now we have all kinds of emission controls on all our cars, yet there are thousands of percents more cars on the road. So at the very best, we maintain the status quo, with the only exception that it's monitored more and even then there are way around that
I swore I would not post in this thread but...

Here in the Bay Area, our air is much cleaner then it was twenty years ago. Even with the huge increase in number of cars. This is due to all the strict emmission control laws. A government study just proved this, as I already knew. We almost never have "smog alerts" anymore. When I was a kid, we had them all the time.

It's all about oil! I think that Twink makes a good point that we shouldn't be hypocrites. We shake our heads about the war but then we go about our lives consuming vast qauntities of oil, especially in our Airstream pursuits. Bush thought the war would be paid by Iraqi oil and we would have a great source of cheap oil after the invasion. It didn't work according to plan. Go figure.

Opps, I've said too much already.
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Old 01-24-2005, 07:15 PM   #167
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The Ebb and Tide of this Thread

Now its global warming. In my lifetime the world has doubled in population and it isn't going to stop. As Big Dee points out it is a much cleaner today. Pittsburghers, for instance, can now see the sun and the real color of their buildings. Personally, I don't think government can control as much as we think, but maybe tokenly fix a few things and delay the inevitable. Paradigm shifts to new technology may be the only saving grace starting with the potential end of oil and gasoline use. Maybe it was technology advancement and economic change that cleaned up the Bay Area and Pittsburgh more than government. And despite what we do, a Krakatoa or even a massive sunspot could undo all we do. Glacier Bay glaciers started receding in the 18th Century long before the Industrial Age could have a causative effect.

OK, I was just wondering when this thread was going to shift over to social security.
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Old 01-24-2005, 07:33 PM   #168
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There is no question things have gotten better, particularly if you were at the brink of disaster. Lake Erie is a great example. Here in the Chicagoland area, it hasn't gotten any better. It is true that the great lakes have improved dramatically, however, we still have ozone action days and the number of those grows daily and the great lakes still are no where near where they were 4 or 5 decades ago. BTW, CARB, although they seem to set the standard, the rest of the country is behind the curve where CA. currently finds itself. I find it's about 3 or so years behind CA...as the old saying goes in the car nut clubs...so says CARB, so says the country.

I wish I had a better answer, truely I do, but in the end Davydd is correct, technology will be our only saving grace as there is little doubt in my mind that as population continues to grow dramatically (look how most schools are beyond capacity), consuption will continue to increase as well. Hydrogen powered vehicles among other things would be a great improvement IMHO.

Besides Social Security which I don't bet will be around, I'd love to hear what folks think about the power (electricity) shortages and the old infrastructure that delivers it.
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