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Old 01-16-2008, 03:22 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Ruler
Possibly not. I believe it has more to do with technology. Better designs, improved hardware, electronic controls, synthetic lubrication, and tighter specs, etc.

For example... Back in the 70's I had a mint 69 427ci Corvette (390 HP).

Our current 215ci V6 sport sedan, "grocery getter", will out handle, out stop, and "almost" out accelerate the big block vette. Note: The vette is only a couple 10ths quicker in the 1/4.
My point exactly...
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Old 02-01-2008, 05:47 PM   #30
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I want to like V-8's. I really do. Sometimes I have liked them.

I did a little work on V-8's one summer, and had the opportunity to do track support for one of the Indy teams (turned it down).

And I've enjoyed a couple of Fords (and despised one or two), and Chevy's too. Never really been a Mopar nut.

But reach me at a vulnerable moment and I'll confess that the only car I've ever actively coveted is a lowly Dodge Omni. A lowly Dodge Omni GLH-T.

Yes 4 in line. While I never found a GLH in servicable condition, I was tempted by its successor:Say 'Bye to Neon, but by then it was minivan time.

Finally, we outgrew strollers, diaper bags, and were able to graduate to a smaller economy car. Sensible, safe (5 stars on every rating system going), and capable of up to 42 mpg (A/C off, driven verrrry carefully).
And, oh yes, four cylinders of unrepentent fun!


I lied. There is another car that I've coveted. I doubt very much I'll ever get one, but the 740 is just everything it shouldn't be.
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Old 02-01-2008, 06:45 PM   #31
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The problem with Hydorgen is it currently takes more Hydrocarbon energy to get Hydrogen than the end energy we get. Did that make sense.
If we can use electrolisys of water using solar or wind then we have a chance.
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Old 02-01-2008, 06:52 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSHED
There is another car that I've coveted. I doubt very much I'll ever get one, but the 740 is just everything it shouldn't be.
I'm visualizing a drift Travelall.
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Old 02-01-2008, 07:48 PM   #33
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Just a few points to make here:

SilverTwinkie, my buddy has a Subaru WRX STi, the one with 300hp and all wheel drive. It's basically a rally cup car. He averages 17mpg with it. My cousin has a 2002 Trans Am with the 350hp V8, and she actually averages about the same, but a whole lot better on the interstate.

Bottom line is that you have to flow so much air and fuel to make a given amount of power. An engine is just a pump.

My one good friend had a GLH-S Shelby Omni. That thing was amazing. It would smoke the front tires up to 45mph. The story on those is that Ford canned Caroll Shelby. So he went to work for Dodge and wanted to take the biggest POS Mopar had and make it into something that would wax a Mustang GT. Ol' Shel did it with the little black Omni's. Those cars had absolutely zero body roll. Which is why my friend Matt rolled his. It was cornering fine, cornering fine, cornering fine, rolling side over side.

Now there is no way that I will believe that a 215cube sedan can accelerate with a 390hp Corvette. The only way that could be possible is if the Corvette is running the old OEM narrow hard compound tires and can't hook up, and the Altima or whatever is running a much fatter tire that can hook up. Given equal tires, the Vette is going to wax the little sedan. Unless the Sedan is running 15psi of boost and the 215 acts like a 430. Then, maybe. Granted brakes are better now, suspensions are better now, but 1/4 miles times are power to weight. A big block Corvette with enough rubber to hook up would be a very fierce car.

Hydrogen: It doesn't have the specific power of gasoline. In other words, one pound of gasoline has a whole lot more BTU's than one pound of hydrogen. So, you have to either have a giant fuel tank (they use hydrogen powered buses in China, and they look like they're carrying a blimp on top of them that's the length of the bus....that blimp is the fuel tank) or live with lesser range. And, you need to use electrolysis to break down water with the power coming from a nuclear reactor. Otherwise, it isn't so efficient overall.

And lastly, the article made it seem as if only the Northstar's replacement wasn't being implemented. The LS2 and LS7 series should still be around. I, for one, am really looking forward to the 2009 Camaro (see the movie "Transformers"....that was a prototype). Being a Mopar guy, I'd thought about getting a Challenger next year when they come out. We'll see.

Cheers,
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Old 02-02-2008, 01:54 AM   #34
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Wow, that SAAB driving is something else! Imagine if you could pull stunts like that! Wonder how many cars they went through perfecting the routine.

Thanks RedShed.... I always kind of wanted to plant a Ford v8 into a 740 wagon. Paul Newman had a couple of them I hear. That would be a fun grocery getter.
Marc
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:05 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSHED
I want to like V-8's. I really do. Sometimes I have liked them.

I did a little work on V-8's one summer, and had the opportunity to do track support for one of the Indy teams (turned it down).

And I've enjoyed a couple of Fords (and despised one or two), and Chevy's too. Never really been a Mopar nut.

But reach me at a vulnerable moment and I'll confess that the only car I've ever actively coveted is a lowly Dodge Omni. A lowly Dodge Omni GLH-T.

Yes 4 in line. While I never found a GLH in servicable condition, I was tempted by its successor:Say 'Bye to Neon, but by then it was minivan time.

Finally, we outgrew strollers, diaper bags, and were able to graduate to a smaller economy car. Sensible, safe (5 stars on every rating system going), and capable of up to 42 mpg (A/C off, driven verrrry carefully).
And, oh yes, four cylinders of unrepentent fun!


I lied. There is another car that I've coveted. I doubt very much I'll ever get one, but the 740 is just everything it shouldn't be.
I love that 740! Shows you what an overboosted 2.3 4 cylinder can do. My first Volvo was a non-turbo with automatic. I needed wet pavement to induce power oversteer - if I feinted right and then absolutely stood on the go pedal while steering left. It was an extremely good car otherwise.
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:19 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimGolden
Bottom line is that you have to flow so much air and fuel to make a given amount of power. An engine is just a pump.

Now there is no way that I will believe that a 215cube sedan can accelerate with a 390hp Corvette. The only way that could be possible is if the Corvette is running the old OEM narrow hard compound tires and can't hook up, and the Altima or whatever is running a much fatter tire that can hook up. Given equal tires, the Vette is going to wax the little sedan. Unless the Sedan is running 15psi of boost and the 215 acts like a 430. Then, maybe. Granted brakes are better now, suspensions are better now, but 1/4 miles times are power to weight. A big block Corvette with enough rubber to hook up would be a very fierce car.
Yes, an engine is a pump. Better breathing helps, but for the most part cubic inches creates torque which relates to horsepower at a given rpm. Smaller engines need more revs to make the power. Turbocharging creates tremendous torque, which is great, but there is uncertainty about how long an engine can deal with the sustained boost required in a towing situation.

The V6 could run with the Corvette - depends on the transmission and rear gearing. '69 427 automatics had tall gearing - 2.73:1, I believe - and were not terribly impressive off the line. At least, that's the experience I had with a 427 roadster I drove a few times. And the 390 hp was gross. Net was probably not more than 300.
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:28 AM   #37
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Given the fact that I wish I still had the '70 GTO I sold years ago, there is no way I will be giving up a V8 in any vehicle I use as a daily driver for a smaller cylinder engine. Fortunately I live only 5 miles away from my worksite. My wife has a '95 Chevy Astrovan with 4.3 V6 and almost 200,000 miles and it has served us well through 4 kids. It's replacement will be a sedan with V6 or possibly 4 cylinder for only one reason, fuel mileage economics. No way I will get rid of the 8.1 litre 2500hd I have now unless it is for a Chevy Duramax diesel.
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:52 AM   #38
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Ls3 V8

The standard Corvette of today is truly amazing...
26 mpg hwy with
430 horsepower and
424 lb.-ft. of torque out of a
Stock 376 ci
Without any upgrades, which are many.
Top speed of 190 mph....yea, let me trade it in on a Omni.

I'd still like to have a '69/70 with a 427/454, even a single quad, cast iron head model.

And don't even look at the Z06 numbers, they sound made up.

What did you sell the '70 GTO for Z71?
I passed on a 1970 4-speed 455 in 1980 for $225 because it had a flat tire.
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Old 02-02-2008, 11:11 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klattu
What did you sell the '70 GTO for Z71?
I passed on a 1970 4-speed 455 in 1980 for $225 because it had a flat tire.
My '70 GTO kept denting the flywheel cover pan when I took it offroad on logging roads while deer hunting. Seriously! Soon thereafter I sold my Honda 750 which I wish I still had. I sold the GTO to buy a '77 Jeep CJ7 with 304 V8 and 3 speed manual trans. I did alot of trail riding and hunting out of that CJ7 with hardtop. I sold that to buy a friend's '77 K5 Blazer with 350 V8 which was so much more comfortable and hauled more hunting/camping equipment. That was sold to buy the '92 Z71 which the '01 2500hd replaced when my son rolled it missing a deer.

The Jeep and Honda would look mighty good next to the '86 Sovereign but then my wife says I have more toys than I need now.
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Old 02-02-2008, 01:38 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSHED
But reach me at a vulnerable moment and I'll confess that the only car I've ever actively coveted is a lowly Dodge Omni. A lowly Dodge Omni GLH-T.

Yes 4 in line. While I never found a GLH in servicable condition, I was tempted by its successor:Say 'Bye to Neon, but by then it was minivan time.
my brother has a very nice Omni GLH- Shelby ( goes like hell) He aold an Austin Healy years ago, then found this neat little rocket.

As for me I have a V10 Ford. Love it. Its more efficient and smooth than any V8 I personally have had, the last one being a 454.
But I realize the day may come when it will be too expensive for me to take on really long Airstream tows. It gets 13-14 towing.
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:39 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALANSD
my brother has a very nice Omni GLH- Shelby ( goes like hell) He aold an Austin Healy years ago, then found this neat little rocket.

...
But I realize the day may come when it will be too expensive for me to take on really long Airstream tows. It gets 13-14 towing.
A number of years ago, some of the local "tuners" used to hang out across the street. One day I looked over there and saw a GLH. I put on a coat and stormed out the front door. You could tell by the looks on their faces, they were expecting "angry neighbor guy."
That all changed when I got real close and pointed at the little Dodge "Is that a GLH!?"

The whole 4-5-6-8 thing always amuses me... Nearly every class 8 truck in the country has a 6 cyl engine.

It will be interesting to see what the impact of 1/2 ton trucks with diesel engines will be.

Also, I agree, there might be a return to more classic style Airstreams in the 20-22 ft / 2500-3500lb range. I suspect they saw this coming, and ditched the motorhomes. My crystal ball forecasts a slim possibility of resurrecting the classic motorhome with a 150-200hp diesel... That ought to do much better over the road than a large 'glass brick.
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Old 02-02-2008, 05:42 PM   #42
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Sorry dudes, I'm not buyin' it.

215 cube = 3.5 Litres. What's a "hot" sedan with a normally aspirated 3.5? A Nissan Maxima. And they are a pretty nice car.

2008 Maxima weighs 3600lbs. 2006 weighs 3500. OK, benefit of the doubt. Car weighs 3500lbs. It's got 265hp and 255 ft-lbs of torque.

1969 Corvette weighs 3245lbs with 390 horsepower. Assume a 15% loss through the driveline, gives you more like 330hp to the ground.

Even if the Vette does have a 2.73:1 rear diff (I thought most had 3.36 or so...), that will really only matter out of the hole,and you have to balance that against the ratios in the transmission. Most front drivers (as are most sedans these days) have tall final drive ratios.

So skipping that, look at the power to weight. Assume the same 180lb driver, and you get 265hp to move 3680lbs of Maxima = 13.9lbs per hp. The Corvette is 10.4lbs per horsepower to move its bulk plus the same driver.

Not to mention that a front driver won't hook up very well.

So 10.4 in a rear driver vs. 13.9 in a front driver. My money is on the 'Vette.

Now, how about a 232 cube V6 that's turboed to 20psi? ALA Buick Grand National? Yes Virginia,there is a Santa Claus! The Black Buicks are bad news.

Turbocharge it and the story changes.

And I have to agree with the other fellows on here, as much as I love the sound of a deep throaty V8, about the only thing better is a throatier V-12. I saw a Ferrari GTB (1959 I think...predecessor to the GTO) at a local track one time, and that thing shreiked like a banshee. A guy with an L88 Vette waxed him, but the Ferrari sure sounded nice. But even better is a real V-12, like an Allison or a Rolls Merlin. It doesn't get much sweeter than one of those

All goofing aside though, look at Lotus if you want to see a car that is efficient, yet still fun to drive. The Elise and Exige both weigh in around 1900lbs or so, but use a Toyota Celica motor (180 hp in the Elise and 230hp in Exige...one is turboed the other isn't). So 2080lbs of Elise with 180hp gives you a power to weight of 11.6lbs per hp. That's close to the big block Vette. So it should accelerate fairly closely. But, you have that much mass to sling around, so it'll way out handle it. The Exige is priced ludicrously at about $70K, but I've seen used Elise's in the $35K range. One of those would be fun. The Lotus is a bare bones sports car, the way it used to be, without power this and power that to add weight. Like Colin Chapman said, weight is the enemy.

The real deal is that turboing a small engine or using cylinder deact on a big one are both great ways to save fuel. You'll have a little more internal friction with a V8 using cylinder deact than running a 4-banger, but not that much to make a huge difference. They're both steps in the right direction.

And yes, I missed my chance to buy a '68 Roadrunner for $300 back around 1990 by a week. Old Codger that had it said it had one of them funny lookin' motors where the spark plug wires went into the middle of the valve covers...
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming....
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