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Old 05-20-2006, 09:45 PM   #21
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Being in and out of the church most of my life, there is now question that good and bad are in the church and outside the church. I personally grew up in a very unstable family enviroment and could have turned out mean and ugly, but I always wanted to do good and I try to find good in all. I have had the privelege to work with some pretty messed up teenagers in our church and they know that when their family life gets unbearable that they have a church family to depend on. Sadly I have seen people misuse the church, but there are those of us who try to live by God's word. Many of you are right God doesn't make you good, that's our choice, but He sure makes me want to do good.
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Old 05-21-2006, 05:30 AM   #22
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Kent, my comment is based upon my Saviour commanding us to "Love one another." If we practice this as a testiment to our faith we end up accepting people as they are, without preconceptions of them. "Judge not...."

Dmac, religion is man made, faith is of the spirit. Many confuse religion with faith, churches are full of people who attend yet have little faith.

Live your life by faith, your daily witness of that faith will show and be an example to those around you.
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Old 05-21-2006, 07:40 AM   #23
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Good Thread

I remember this quote from the Old Testament:

"Those who have heard the law will be judged acording to the law. Those who have not heard the law will be judged according to their conscience".

To me that implies that we all HAVE a conscience- that we have an inherent understanding of the difference between good and bad.
Makes me err on the side of goodness and try to believe that my fellow man wishes to do good and not ill.
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Old 05-21-2006, 07:50 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kistler
No, human beings are not "inherently good". That is why we have infant baptism and some religions "put you on probation until 12 years of age"
More Sunday School lessons are needed here. I hope you are not implying that baptism washes away the sin we are born with. Then confirmation or Bar Mitzvah is not the end of a probation.
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Old 05-21-2006, 08:48 AM   #25
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A thorough cleansing

Chaplain Kent said: "More Sunday School lessons are needed here. I hope you are not implying that baptism washes away the sin we are born with."

Then what does? I'll stick with the teaching of the Church on this one (for reference: Acts 22: 16 with I Pet. 3:21). However, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church {405} says, "Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back toward God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle."
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Old 05-21-2006, 09:58 AM   #26
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"I’m feeling a bit philosophical today and started thinking more about the topic of whether or not people are inherently good". We are both good and bad. If one sees us a being inherently good, it depends on point of view. The first assumption is that we are pack animals. We have become dominant because the pack has been successful over time. What works for the pack is good. What doesn't is bad. That sounds a little Black vs. White. When in reality its relationship is many variations and shapes of grey. An Example: The members of the pack are hungry. What would be good for the pack is food. In a field stands a herd of quiet grass eating animals "Food". The Pack picks out one animal that looks like it will suffice the needs of the Pack. The hunt begins. Now good and bad. For the animal that the Pack picked as dinner, it is bad. For the rest of the herd our choice was good, because they survived. Now if the hunt is succesful, it is good for the Pack. If the hunt is unsuccessful, it is bad for the pack. Now for shades of grey. Lets say that the animal that was picked for dinner turns out to be too small the feed the entire Pack. For the dominate animals in the Pack the hunt was good. For the weaker members of the Pack the hunt was bad. Or lets look at the hunted animal. If it gets away, it is good that it escaped, however it is bad because it probably suffered injury. The injury could make it stronger or weaker, Good or Bad. Now for my specific point of view. A few years ago I had a near death experience. I got to a point of extream peace and freedom of choice. At this point I could choose to go or stay. I chose to stay, because I see this experience as being inherintly good. Envision a Pack of Airstream trailers gathered at a Rally. It is Good.
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Old 05-21-2006, 10:51 AM   #27
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I have read this thread and though it has nothing to do with Airstreaming it does raise some deep philosophical questions.

My belief is that the human animal is inherently bad. If it were inherently good, there would be no need for religion. We wouldn't have to be told to love one another, we would do it without being told. We wouldn't have to be told not to lie,cheat and steal, etc... . The Judeo/Christian religions have the ten commandments to tell its believers how to conduct their lives. Believers in most religions believe out of fear. Fear of not going to heaven, or of going to Hell or of being struck by lightning. In general the believers use their religions to justify their own actions and desires. The concept that if you don't believe as I do, or if you just insult my deity, I have the right to kill you is not new but seems ludicrous in today's enlightened society. The Middle East is currently demonstrating the lunacy that the corruption of a fairly reasonable religion can engender. But what they are doing is not so much different than what the white Christians did to the Native American in the not too distant past. Now they have an advanced technology at their command. They can fly commercial airplanes into buildings killing thousands of innocent bystanders.

The interesting thing is that the Jewish, Christian and Moslem religions all pray to the same God. Each has a somewhat different concept of who the deity is and what it wants from it's believers.

Is man basicly good? No. Left to his own devices anarchy would reign supreme. The veneer of goodness is thin. In the middle of all of the destruction of the gulf coast caused by Katrina, looters held sway. When the lights go out and law and order break down, all "hell" breaks loose. These are not the actions of inherent goodness.

I do not dispute that we are capable of major acts of goodness but for the most part these are learned responses.
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Old 05-21-2006, 12:27 PM   #28
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I would think that an attempt to answer this question should begin with a definition of 'Good'.

Buddhists would say that all conditioned phenomenon (the results of cause and effect) are 'empty' of inherent 'good' ness or 'bad' ness. They would also say that our conventional lives are dependent of causes (parents, etc.) so we have no inherent nature (good or bad).

I was raised a catholic but must say that the church has no credibility on any subject, especially the nature of humans.
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Old 05-21-2006, 12:58 PM   #29
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The Mission....

... Back in the late '60s, a few local Lads & Myself used 2go2 the Motorcyclin circuits on a Sunday mornin, we used 2 meet up at Dave's house 7-30 am, 4 coffee & dippers...Can U imagine that ?, a 6 pack of M/Cs, pullin in2 Yr drive at that time of a mornin & on a SUNDAY... back in those days Sundays were 4 goin 2 Church, mowin the lawns, washin the cars & general pottin abt in the garden... But us Group of Guys, sadly had other things on our minds, We were far from bad Guys, We all worked hard, We ALL had respect, we nvr smoke drank or smoked in public & nvr used bad language either, We nvr got in2 fights with the Mods either... nor with the Rockers... We were jus a group of Lads doin Lads things... NOW... A Young lady who lived opposite our meetin place was our " Grump " She was always complainin 2 us & the police, so We actualy Cut our engines & pushed our bikes in2 out Friends Yard, We thought We would kick in with the respect part, But She jus did'nt like us...
She must have told Her Father, a retired VICAR... One Sunday as We were abt 2 set off, He came from His Daughters house, & stood in the driveway, blockin our path, He has His Bible in His hands & began readin 2 Us,
Well 2 cut it way down short, On a Sunday night, We all ended up at His place, a smart bungalow, & drank His coffee & ate His dippers... it turned out He had a passion 4 motorbikes, He also was A Cristian, & says He was a Guardian Angel... ?.... We mainly talked, read the Bible, & he tried 2 convert us all..., I think We kinda converted Him after a while, So what I'm tryin 2 say here is that We were jus the same at His home, as We were anywhere else, & once we got 2 kn Him & Him Us...We learned a lot from Him, He was'nt a nosey old sod at all, He was a GOOD Man, doin Gods work, He realy believed in Us, & helped us in many ways...He told us that there was Good & Bad in Everyone, & it is OUR choice in Life which path We choose 2 take, When He passed away, a few year later, We felt We had lost a dear Friend... We All went 2 His service, He would have been proud of us, all wearin SUITS, instead of Jeans n tee shirts...Bless Him...Chris.....
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Old 05-21-2006, 09:20 PM   #30
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This Just In...

Prisons and jails added more than 1,000 inmates each week for a year, putting almost 2.2 million people, or one in every 136 U.S. residents, behind bars by last summer.
The total on June 30, 2005, was 56,428 more than at the same time in the government reported Sunday. That 2.6 percent increase from mid-2004 to mid-2005 translates into a weekly rise of 1,085 inmates. Of particular note was the gain of 33,539 inmates in jails, the largest increase since 1997, researcher Allen J. Beck said. That was a 4.7 percent growth rate, compared with a 1.6 percent increase in people held in state and federal prisons.

Hmmm....
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Old 05-22-2006, 06:52 AM   #31
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Wow...I just finished this thread...many different views on this...I like to add my thoughts getting back to a more positive note.

I really don't know how to put it into words but if you live your life doing something positive for others....eventually it will make it's way back to you....sort of like that movie "Pass it Forward"....

A small story to add....When I was a teenager I took a class trip to France...in all the hustle and bustle we were in a Paris train station going up the stairs and it must have been rush hour cause it was packed prob five across .....I couldn't believe it when a woman two rows behind me yelled, "..madam..madam" as she flashed me my pink wallet which I had dropped. I was dumbfounded at first because I couldn't believe that I had been so careless...my life for the next two weeks was in that wallet! From that day on I have never forgotten that woman's face and have always kept that random act of kindness close to me and passed it forward.... and because of that if this makes any sense to you at all...it's amazing the things that have fallen in my path.....
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Old 05-22-2006, 07:13 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultradog
I remember this quote from the Old Testament:

"Those who have heard the law will be judged acording to the law. Those who have not heard the law will be judged according to their conscience".

.
I am having a lot of fun with this thread. If you please I do believe that this quote comes from David Hobbes. You can find it in his Leviathan.
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