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Old 11-21-2010, 11:14 AM   #43
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Yahoo news has an article this morning on this topic.
5 Reasons Electric Cars Will Disappoint- Yahoo! Autos Article Page
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Old 11-22-2010, 07:31 AM   #44
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"What I am curious about is, has anyone attempted to analyze the combined effect of all of our renewable energy plans when they are carried to the extreme necessary to end the use of fossil fuels."
Ken[/QUOTE]

I think AlGore has that covered.

And as far as this goes: "We are watching exactly the same behavior now w/ climate change...." I remember the late 1970's/early 80's our crisis of the day was global cooling. We were going to have glaciers re-appear over Canada and New England if we didn't act quickly. The "global warming" brand has been dropped in favor of "climate change". That pretty much covers any weather event that you care to tax.

From Rolling Stone May, 1983
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Old 11-28-2010, 06:30 PM   #45
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Some observations from a crumudgeon: I have two electric golf carts to get around the property and they replaced a fossil fuel burning ATV. I can see the difference in the electric bill after the first snow flies and they're parked for the winter....I live in an area that the tree huggers worship and they're always protesting anything that will ruin the "view". In my book, 20 acres of solar panels combined with a bunch of windmills dotting the skyline are beyond butt ugly!....Finally, when I moved to SW Colorado 25 years ago, propane was 85 cents a gallon and now it's almost $2.50 and even higher in other parts of the country. Yet, SW Colorado has the highest concentration of natural gas in the world. You don't suppose that the increase in prices was due to tighter and tighter industry restrictions do you? I used to get a free wet feed on my 500 gallon propane tank to fill my AS tanks and a dual fuel Bobcat front loader. Now, OSHA rules are so onerous that the same wet feed cost $250 and the company is reluctant to even install it. And, I forgot to mention that my above ground 300 gallon gravity feed fuel tank will probably have to be removed because it doesn't meet the new OSHA rules....We need more common sense instead of restrictive energy rules written by some suit that's never been west of the Hudson River.
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Old 11-28-2010, 09:14 PM   #46
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We need more common sense instead of restrictive energy rules written by some suit that's never been west of the Hudson River.

So long as the speculators/bankers own the government -- a revolving door between them and government -- the price paid will reflect their profit, never your savings. Monopoly is the game, and buying off Congress is cheap.

At least with an electric car there is the possibility I might one day be able to "generate fuel" albeit at a good upfront cost. The problem is payback.

Read the other day that in the First World (of which America is no longer a part) that Germans who install solar on their homes are not rebated, say, 17-cents per kwh, but a full 50-cents per kwh generated (by law). Nice incentive, huh?

The real kicker is that within the next year or so (not decade) there will be so much solar installed in overcast Germany that even shutting off every single power plant the amount of solar electricity being generated is so high that the grid may not be able to handle it.

The speed at which the rest of the world is passing us by is increasing. America, the backwater: our trade negotiators are now involved with South Korea, begging them to take our cars even though they don't meet the emissions and safety standards of that country.

Electric cars have ALWAYS made more sense. Anyone curious can read up on the collaboration between Henry Ford and Thomas Edison to make it so in the years prior to WWI.

Electric cars should have been on the road in the USA more than a dozen years ago.

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Old 11-28-2010, 11:09 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by REDNAX View Post
Germans who install solar on their homes are not rebated, say, 17-cents per kwh, but a full 50-cents per kwh generated (by law).
Some readers may be interested to know that at my home in England, UK, I have solar photovoltaic panels on my garage roof with a maximum instantaneous output of 4 Kw. The annual output will be about 3000 KwH. I am paid 67 cents for every unit I generate, whether or not I use it. If I use a unit, I am saving the 20 cents it would otherwise have cost, so the reward is 67+20 = 87 cents per unit. If I don't use the unit, it is exported back down the line to the power company, which pays me an extra 5 cents, total reward 67+3 = 70 cents.
The installation cost was $20,000 The annual pay-back will be about $2250, so pay-back time should be about 9 years, at over 11% p.a.
In effect I run a small power station, linked into the National Grid. Because of this I am a priority for re-instatement after a power outage.
This is a Government mandated scheme called FITS (Feed-In Tariff Scheme). These payments (from the power companies, not the Government) are guaranteed for 25 years, index linked against inflation. The system requires no routine maintenace.
If I get an electric car I can power it from the panels at no extra cost. I am waiting for the electric car market to mature a little before making that decision.
Nick.
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:10 AM   #48
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Question Huh?

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Originally Posted by nickcrowhurst View Post
Some readers may be interested to know that at my home in England, UK, I have solar photovoltaic panels on my garage roof with a maximum instantaneous output of 4 Kw. The annual output will be about 3000 KwH. I am paid 67 cents for every unit I generate, whether or not I use it. If I use a unit, I am saving the 20 cents it would otherwise have cost, so the reward is 67+20 = 87 cents per unit. If I don't use the unit, it is exported back down the line to the power company, which pays me an extra 5 cents, total reward 67+3 = 70 cents.
The installation cost was $20,000 The annual pay-back will be about $2250, so pay-back time should be about 9 years, at over 11% p.a.
Thanks for posting these numbers, but I'm puzzled. Do I understand correctly that the power company pays you 70 cents for every kilowatt-hour of electrical energy that you put into the grid but only charges you 20 cents for every kilowatt-hour you take out of the grid? Buying a commodity for 350% of the price you sell it for is not a recipe for making money--in fact it appears to be a recipe for going out of business very quickly. To say nothing of paying you 67 cents for kilowatt hours that you don't send to the grid!

Where does that money come from?
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:24 AM   #49
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Where does that money come from?
Yes, you do understand correctly. The money comes out of the power company's profits, and also is spread across costs to consumers who don't generate electricity. The power companies, by law, have to generate a certain % of their electricity from "renewables". To encourage investors to put money into these schemes the power companies have to pay an amount that adequately rewards the investors.
This could be the start of a revolution in U.K electricity production, and any revolution benefits from a kick-start. This is part of the kick-start.
Sometimes it's more than the $$$$$s
Nick
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:29 AM   #50
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Can't they be both a scam and a sham?
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Old 11-29-2010, 11:24 AM   #51
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Electric cars should have been on the road in the USA more than a dozen years ago.
Electric cars have been on the road for more than a century.

To name a few examples, the Baker Electric was fairly popular from the turn of the 20th century up to 1914, when the company went out of business. I knew a guy who drove an antique Baker around town.

In the oil crises of the 1970's, thousands of Vanguard and Elcar electric "city cars" were sold. My veterinarian at that time bought one for tooling around town, and liked it. He did manage to run out of juice alongside the road a few times. When it came time to replace all the batteries, he didn't.

Out in retirement communities like Sun City, Arizona, it's legal to drive golf carts on the city streets, and many people do.

Electric cars make sense for some people's driving patterns and it would be nice if somebody made them for that market niche. But most companies that have made them have gone out of business, which tells us something.
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Old 11-30-2010, 11:46 AM   #52
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Electric power is undoubtedly the best for cars except for one thing. The power storage requirement. The latest batteries are much better but still not good enough. Think of a battery the size and weight of a waterbed that stores the equivalent of 1 gallon of gas.

Then there is the pollution angle. Electric cars are 98% pollution free (if you don't count recycling the batteries). Gas cars are 97% pollution free.

So, electric cars have their place but will not be putting the gas engine out of business for a while yet.

Actually, the best use of electric vehicles might be as urban buses. Replace the stinky diesels with clean electric power and have some kind of recharging station at every bus stop. Or, go back to the old overhead wire system trolley car style. Trolley buses have been used successfully all over the world and are much cheaper than rail rapid transit.
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Old 12-01-2010, 08:17 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by nickcrowhurst View Post
Some readers may be interested to know that at my home in England, UK, I have solar photovoltaic panels on my garage roof with a maximum instantaneous output of 4 Kw. The annual output will be about 3000 KwH. I am paid 67 cents for every unit I generate, whether or not I use it. If I use a unit, I am saving the 20 cents it would otherwise have cost, so the reward is 67+20 = 87 cents per unit. If I don't use the unit, it is exported back down the line to the power company, which pays me an extra 5 cents, total reward 67+3 = 70 cents.
The installation cost was $20,000 The annual pay-back will be about $2250, so pay-back time should be about 9 years, at over 11% p.a.
In effect I run a small power station, linked into the National Grid. Because of this I am a priority for re-instatement after a power outage.
This is a Government mandated scheme called FITS (Feed-In Tariff Scheme). These payments (from the power companies, not the Government) are guaranteed for 25 years, index linked against inflation. The system requires no routine maintenace.
If I get an electric car I can power it from the panels at no extra cost. I am waiting for the electric car market to mature a little before making that decision.
Nick.
This would be news to Americans: government that works. In Texas we recently "de-regulated" electrical prices and went from some of the lowest to some of the highest rates in the nation. Exact opposite of promises. Great numbers of long-experienced men were let go (institutional memory), and maintenance cuts, etc, have left our unique grid more fragile than before. And the state governor who touted it handily won re-election without a whiff of backlash. Next up: "smart" meters installed (or soon to be) from which we can expect to learn that our houses magically use more electricity than before (apparently, our old mechanical meters were all "under-reporting" said usage). Rather like the electronic vote-counting machines now in use . . . a penny here, a penny there. (And good luck with "Mike" in Bangladesh on questions & complaints).

For me it's turbodiesel vehicles until electric cars have some track mileage. I'd much rather have electric for the grocery-store runs though.

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Old 12-01-2010, 08:46 AM   #54
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Actually, the best use of electric vehicles might be as urban buses. Replace the stinky diesels with clean electric power and have some kind of recharging station at every bus stop. Or, go back to the old overhead wire system trolley car style. Trolley buses have been used successfully all over the world and are much cheaper than rail rapid transit.
" In 1949, three of our largest corporations--General Motors, Standard Oil of California (SoCal, now Chevron) and Firestone Tire and Rubber (now Japan's Bridgestone)--were convicted of having conspired for more than a decade to replace highly efficient urban electric transit systems with bus lines. The bus lines' operators contracted never to buy new equipment "using any fuel or means of propulsion other than" petroleum. GM, SoCal and Firestone were fined $5,000 each, the maximum the antitrust laws then allowed. GM's treasurer, also convicted, was fined $1. GM's $5,001 punishment somehow failed to deter it from continuing for six years to acquire electric-powered rail and bus properties and convert them to gasoline and diesel. The conspiracy-to-monopolize convictions, upheld on appeal, never received attention commensurate with their impact. In 1974, however, they did become a subject of Senate Antitrust and Monopoly Subcommittee hearings on the broad topic of auto industry reform. "
read rest here

New cons. Same game. "Reform"
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