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Old 04-30-2015, 08:57 PM   #1
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Archeological, Geological, Historical and Public Sites- ABUSE

Graffiti vandals creep into National Parks:

A current Thread that I do not wish to go into my standard Monologue, but since you were curious, I am making this my opening statement and not throw off the momentum this other worthy Thread. That being said, I now blather my way into a more specific world that I have a great understanding... Mother Nature and other obscure things worthy of consideration.
********

I read the posts on this current thread and have to agree that a small percentage, yet still one too many, of the general public have no common sense, find themselves so special, so full of themselves to have no restraint or regard to defacing, damaging or vandalizing historic sites, unique geologic sites or even Public Property that is provided for their bodily functions (i.e. restrooms) intended for everyones use and pleasure. The sites, not the restrooms in particular.

I am a Geologist by eduction. Amateur Paleontologist. Amateur Archaeologist. Amateur Geologist. Amateur, amateur, amateur... you name it. I do none of these and receive compensation for my writings, volunteer support, active preservation or anything else you or I could include under... AMATEUR. Possibly an amateur human being, as well.

Non-Professional. Amateur. Unpaid and unaffiliated with or as an Individual, a member of any University Staff, Government Entity, or anyone who has an interest and receives a paycheck to do so by a select group of individuals. National Park Service, Department of the Interior, etc. etc. etc., as well.

Non-Professional does not mean I am a completely ignorant person who is inconsiderate of other's well meant Professional intentions or anything else that would discredit or disparage those who are PAID as a Professional. It is their chosen profession, although maybe not the best individual(s) to be protecting anything that the Public would like to see, take or remove for their own personal gratification, or mutilate with their name, place of origin or date of defacing a building, Indian site or even a Stop sign in their town or city.

National Parks... for example. Yes. By dedicating a specific area on the Globe as important enough to be protected as a National Park or National Historical Site... it will draw in the best and worst individuals. The "General Public". Just by the designation as a special site, it will bring in people who otherwise would not have a clue that Mount Rushmore was forty miles from their home. (Well... maybe a bit strong, but just an outrageous example of the current stupidity that represents many of the current "youth" today.) But, I wander. These sites will decompose, deteriorate, wear down, be trampled by those who "love these protected sites". They love them... to the site's eventual death. But these sites have at least minimum protection of the Park Rangers and those who come to enjoy these places that access has been made available.

In order to keep this at a length that anyone reading will not fall out of their chair and go blind from staring at the computer screen, I will get to one of my other points.... some areas do not need to be protected IF they are not designated as a Special Place.

Wilderness Areas. Now we have areas designated as Wilderness Areas. Why? Usually because it is so impossible to become a place with easy access with roads, anything that opens access is not permitted... other than what access in trails or long forgotten mining or timbering operations had any access. Again, this attracts those with good and bad intentions.

Give it a name and they will come.

Archaeological Sites on Public Land should all be protected and if unique, reported to the local Museum or University department. A serious Amateur would know an important find, immediately. That is probably my most highly regarded opinion. Once removed or destroyed... it IS gone forever.

As a geologist, I differ with many "Professionals" on Mineral, Rock and Fossil collecting on Public Lands. Collecting these in my view is a recreation. Much like boating, fishing or just camped at Yosemite enjoying the view. Erosion of the Earth's surface continues today, tomorrow and forever... even if a protected Mount Rushmore... it will one day be rubble. Worn down as the Rockies have for the last 65,000,000 year beginning from a beautiful Cretaceous ocean view among the dinosaurs... Our 65 to 120 year life span is not even a blink to geological time and erosion. You must not think in Human TIME FRAME, but geological time. OK?

The rules are different from place to place, if there are any. Bureau of Land Management, Department of Interior, National Forest Service, etc. have rules. You cannot go into the Forest and begin a lumbering operation because you want to. Or graze cattle where you want to. Or drill an oil well because you want to.

But... rocks, minerals and fossils that WERE on the surface 10,000,000 years ago, on the surface today, or will be in 10 years or 10,000,000 years from this moment, will be eroded out, decomposed over time and become a finely grained sandstone or dissolved into their chemical components into something totally different. Many areas have fragile fossils that are eroding on the surface of an outcrop and if not collected soon, will decompose from exposure to the elements. Because they are... fossils... they are protected under the Antiquities Act meant to protect Indian Sites. But since they are OLD, they must be... saved.

Many people find recreation in collecting rocks, minerals and fossils. Since the Western USA has rock exposed EVERYWHERE, it is an obvious place for "Amateurs" to collect. Private Property is usually along places where water is or was available, as well as mining interests... but today is private property and no trespassing, protected like a National Park or Historical Site as privately owned.

Amateurs have made the majority of major discoveries of Mines, Archaeological Sites or Paleontological finds. At one time, there were NO Professionals, only AMATEURS. Those who were well read were involved in the Church and became expert amateurs. Yet not professionals. They did what they did for the curiosity and discovery of something new. The fossils on the surface today will be destroyed if not collected... by anyone who has an interest. It is fossils that I could not understand are protected... yet unlimited in supply if you are patient and have one year or 1,000,000 years to wait for weathering to expose more, and possibly better specimens. This has been my complaint of over zealous oversight of the Professionals who spend most of their time in a class room or an office. Not in the field... as the amateur is to be found.

Now you must understand that as this has not fermented in my mind and is offered as the thoughts run through the bowels of my thought process, I would like to hear other opinions. The "general public" is a term that does not care if you are good, bad or indifferent. YOU must have an opinion on something that we regard as OUR public opinion or right, if any exist any more.

One last glimmer of sunlight of a sunny warm Colorado sunset and... finally no FROST to be found this morning.

Finale:

Have you noticed the width of TOILET TISSUE at public restrooms? If you have not, where have you been? I found at Lake Meade Recreational area public restrooms provided for the Triathlon Race members to be the narrowest, maybe 3 inches and ONE PLY... if counting. From the looks of it... everyone took FEET of "toilet tissue" to complete their mission or duty. Have you noticed? Non the Less... this is to prove to those who ready through this Thesis that some things do make a difference.
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Old 05-01-2015, 09:42 AM   #2
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Vandals have been among us since people gathered in groups. The Greeks complained that the youth was going to Hades, while defacing statues by knocking off their noses. Those going West on the Oregon Trail defaced smooth sandstone rock walls in Wyoming while camped along the North Platte River. Indians defaced the iron veneer on the red sandstone walls with their... graffiti. Some vandalism becomes historically important, and some just plain vandalism. Who are we to decide which is to be permitted, or not? Time will decide.

I brought up Toilet Tissue as an example how economics can change what we substitute for standards. Obviously many have their own definition of Vandalism, Graffiti and even campsites left in the forests or deserts with debris by person(s) who really do not care.

Indians left their trash and when the trash and organic debris was too massive and the stench overwhelming... moved to the next site to repeat the process. Today, these campsites are... protected.

Culture and opinions we have today may be totally different in two or three more generations. Trailers may be non existent and reminders of our horse drawn wagons of the 19th century.

The Oregon Trail, the Sante Fe Trail and the expansion of the USA from the East Coast to the West Coast defaced thousands of miles with wagon ruts, rarely noticed today. We have black top and concrete roads from point A to point B and give it no thought today. Culture changes what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

What can YOU do? Well, very little. It is so easy to make a complaint in one or two sentences and find this as your contribution to such a complicated issue. Walking in the deserts of the Southwest can be taken as being disrespectful and damaging. Camped in the forest and have a hummingbird feeder hanging as damaging to the bird's normal routine of survival. It can go on and on.

I can see some typos and areas where I could have reworded a sentence for a clearer meaning in my first post. This is from the heart and experience of someone who has lived in the forest, camped in the deserts and grassy plains. I understand the dilemma you and I face. There is very little we can do to turn a cultural change one way or another. It takes time. Maybe so much time, that even the ruins in Rome and Athens will look... well preserved compared to what our cities will appear in 100 or 500 or 1,000 years.

So, complain all you want. Pick up after those who leave their trash at a campsite. Maybe, you are destroying a possible Archaeological Site for the future understanding of our culture.

Toilet Paper was my original thought of a thread. When a hurricane is about to hit the coast, toilet paper is cleaned off the shelves. It was not unusual to see Sears and Montgomery Wards catalogs in the out houses of the USA. Now the single ply, three inch mega rolls, with locks to secure them from being stolen... Even though those using those options will double, triple or increase the length for their standards. This is no different than any other aspect of human nature. Change. Good, bad or indifferent.

Changes in perspective can move individuals to tear down and destroy ancient temples. Resist the temptation to give up and silencing your opinion. It is not the vandal that is the problem... it might just be yourself and your lack of will to say something when these acts are being committed. These places have not changed, they have been there since time began. People have changed.
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Old 05-01-2015, 10:42 AM   #3
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The Federal Government already has laws that provide for specific penalties for defacing or damaging Federal property.

The law I'm most aware of dates back to March 3rd, 1899. I'm aware of it because it covers Federal property on navigable waters of the United States, which is the Corps of Engineers' bailiwick. I'm sure there are similar laws for other Federal property.

The Act of March 3rd, 1899 basically states that any person who damages public property can be held liable for the full cost of restoring it to its pre-damage condition. The clauses of the Act basically give offenders— those that are caught— three options:
1 - Pay the estimated cost before the work is done. Usually the cheapest option but most offenders don't take it because that constitutes an admission of guilt. People who damage Government property accidentally so that insurance will cover it sometimes take this option, too.
2 - Pay the actual cost after the work is done. More expensive, but the preferred option for those wishing to fight it in court.
3 - Restore the property themselves at no cost to the Government. This is the preferred option of contractors who damage Federal property in the course of performing the contract.

But the key is, the offender must be caught, or at least there must be a witness who can identify the perpetrator and report him/her/them to the Government agency that has jurisdiction over the property in question.
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Old 05-01-2015, 11:11 AM   #4
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It is interesting to see that changes in human behavior are becoming recognized in Co. You are only seeing the tip of the ice burg. Having lived long in New Jersey, the source for human stupidity and our principle product for export, it is nice to see others are finally enjoying our efforts. There is more to come.

The answer to all issues, problems, or differences is to have a law, policy, or regulation. In New Jersey if anything happens anywhere in the country New Jersey will have a law, policy, or regulation governing it by noon the next day. We were first to outlaw sunny side up eggs, suspend grade school kids from pointing their index finger at another, looks like a gun, jail an old man for killing a rat, and propose seat belts for dogs. Most recently we have limited access to our State owned lands to no more than 5 ft off a dedicated pathway. Our only salvation is there are not enough police to enforce the stupidity.

Had that mother from Baltimore, now considered the Mother of the Year by many, lived in New Jersey she would be in jail now for touching her son, and he would be a ward of the court placed in a home.
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Old 05-01-2015, 11:38 AM   #5
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The answer to all issues, problems, or differences is to have a law, policy, or regulation. In New Jersey if anything happens anywhere in the country New Jersey will have a law, policy, or regulation governing it by noon the next day.
Well, New Jersey does rank 7th in the United States (District of Columbia is first, of course) in the per-capita number of lawyers. My state, Louisiana, only ranks 11th.
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Old 05-01-2015, 12:45 PM   #6
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Nevada Cactus and Yucca Scofflaws...

Thank you for two brave souls to speak out. At least someone can take a contentious subject and dissect it a little at a time.

I have to remind Protagonist that there IS a difference between Government Property and Federal PUBLIC Property. That also applies to State Property and State SCHOOL SECTION properties. My carving my initials on a blank sandstone outcrop is not a State or Federal crime, as I understand... yet. There are also specific crimes against Privately owned property, as well. Maybe there will be no names or dates to incriminate individuals on a plain rock face and lost to historians of the future, unless you have a permit. Lucky for those on the Oregon Trail at Signature Rock in Wyoming... they avoided prosecution.

The BLM and National Forest Service will post signs where the trail, ruts or road are CLOSED. Vandals will take the sign down and toss it aside and plead ignorance if caught.

To remove a plant from Public Land or Private Land in Nevada requires a permit. Under "Harvesting Native Plants in Nevada" by a Google search. If you purchase a plant that is native to Nevada from a Commercial Seller... it must come with paperwork, copies of ALL required documents, invoices or bills if in your yard or possession. Yikes...

If you were planning a garden in Nevada with native plants from the desert... you could be a scofflaw. Tags and/or documents must be kept for proof of origin if you have them in your yard from the BLM, Forest Service or Department of Agriculture, Nevada Division of Forestry for a shipping permit, out or within the State of Nevada. If you give a Nevada native cactus to someone, without your information as the source from a cutting... the gift could result in confiscation, fines and/or jail time. Well... so much for a green thumb if you are interested in a yard of non permitted desert plants. I remember back as a kid in Arizona that the Saguaro Cactus required a permit to move it in your yard, from one spot to another... in 1959. Now a Black Market commodity...

I can understand and grasp the intent behind the origin of such laws. But even if you purchase desert plants from Arizona or California, these same desert plants require... a Certificate of Inspection before coming to Nevada. This may also apply to removing seeds from a plant. Great opportunity for a commercial Green House to supply households, forever.

This is an opportunity to vent some of the cultural changes that have restrained the well meaning becoming criminals. Many laws had an intent, but may be lost over time. Some are so vague, even those who are required to enforce them have not a clue.

Back to toilet paper. Costco sells in bundles that it takes a mule to get them out of the store and a vehicle large enough to haul it home. So much for the 4 packs. Am I missing something? Who is using all of this and for what? Gift wrapping?

Why dig half a hole, when you can dig two half holes in half the time? Three more weeks and the trailer will be loaded, the snow season might be easing up and I have so many laws to break without even knowing.
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Old 05-01-2015, 01:06 PM   #7
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I have to remind Protagonist that there IS a difference between Government Property and Federal PUBLIC Property.
I have to argue from cases that I know. Anything else is pure speculation that does no good to any of us. I cited one law that I knew of, and surmised that there are others covering similar situations.

I was not aware that Federal Public Lands are different from other Federal property; I thought that's it's all owned in fee simple by the US Government, or owned by private/corporate entities that grant the Federal Government an easement, both of which bring the property under jurisdiction of the Federal Government. Thank you for the clarification.

I will admit that different Government agencies may take a different stance toward enforcement of whatever statutes apply to the property under their jurisdiction. Corps of Engineers tends to be aggressive toward prosecution, when a perpetrator can be identified. Bureau of Land Management and National Parks Service, maybe not so much.
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Old 05-03-2015, 11:06 PM   #8
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For the most part federal public land is governed under state law but processed in federal court using state statutes
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...k3PiLgMH4PtIjg

That link should give u a basic synopsis...

Have traveled widely and appraised most of the large ranch conservation easements in the western States.... I will say I have seen alot of defaced property.

The problem is the lands In question are so vast it's almost impossible to catch people in the act. And having caught people In the act. I will also say you should not confront them.

Call the closest agency that has jurisdiction.... You don't want to get shot or beat up.

The problem then arises over jurisdiction and how soon can any authority get to the place.

For the most part agencies don't prosecute as the price of prosecution is so lengthy and expensive it's not worth it.
Of the 2 deface instances I dealt with only one was prosecuted because the value of the pots being removed is so high it was worth the cost of legal fees....

Even in camp grounds it is difficult to catch people who leave trash and restrooms In poor condition.

We are dealing with the problem of Commons. Public or common grazing I England in 1800 everyone grazed on Commons until there was no grass left and the land was destroyed. This is not a new phenomenon.

I'm not even going to cover wilderness areas... That was the DUMBEST executive order ever signed.... All it did was put on the maps places people never considered before because they had no roads... Now every yahoo with a 4x4 considers wilderness areas a challenge. Not to mention the legal aspect of the 'taking' of private property that is within the wilderness area
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Old 05-04-2015, 02:17 AM   #9
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Ray, am I ever glad you brought up the sore subject of Toilet Paper.
That has been a bone of contention we me for some time.
What are they thinking when they put in an expensive locking dispenser, like someone would want to steal a huge roll of too narrow (3") too thin (single ply) TP that rips through in a slight breeze. So thin they toughen it up by making it a little slick and shiny, sort of like trying to take care of business with waxed paper. So in the END you use 4 or 5 times the amount of that paper to complete the job as a regular roll of 2 ply Angel Soft (my roll of choice). Madness I tell you, madness!
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Old 05-06-2015, 01:43 AM   #10
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And yet there folks who defile with vigor and think it is OK.

The news today, which many of us with cameras can replicate:

Facebook outrage over park vandalism sparks probe
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Old 05-06-2015, 05:04 AM   #11
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Well, New Jersey does rank 7th in the United States (District of Columbia is first, of course) in the per-capita number of lawyers. My state, Louisiana, only ranks 11th.
Does that count incarcerated lawyers?
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Old 05-06-2015, 07:51 AM   #12
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"Laws" do not effect behavior.... Folks still 'speed'... Some change is needed.... but, that change will meet stiff resistance.... you know it will.
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Old 05-06-2015, 12:37 PM   #13
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SeeMore had a good post showing that there are many individuals who have no common sense or decency to respect what is not... theirs. Had you taken out a nail and began to scratch your name on the hood of their vehicle... would they react?

Rockhounds, gold planners and back country hikers can get lumped into this category of individuals. Some of these individuals DO NOT care. They will leave trash, hidden under a bush for convenience. They will dig holes and not back fill them. They are the ones sawing branches off trees at a campsite to use for firewood, rather than bringing firewood into the campsite or finding it further away as dead timber. They are out there every year.

It gets what is left of my blond, now silvery "blond" hair to stand up straight. Do not include ME with the images the least informed and ignorant. Although I am not as anxious to pick up the beer cans and candy wrappers at back country dry camps, there is this eye sore that I just cannot leave. I do it anyways as a public service. Not to YOU or the Forest Service or BLM... I do it for ME and my sensibilities.

The Fossil Butte Monument outside Kemmerer, Wyoming "protects" the exposures that contain fossil fish from 45,000,000 years ago that had been quarried since the 19th century. It is now... protected. From what, I do not know. As this is soft rock and weathering away. But, at least, protected from something. Somewhere to the East of the monument when I was a University of Wyoming geology student in 1974, a friend and I found a deeply carved name and date of a late 19th century geologist on a solid smooth cliff of yellow limey shale. It was well done, deep and meant to be seen... yet when I mentioned this 35 years later to a Park Ranger who was buying geology books from me for the Park's library... he had never heard of it. Imagine that.

It has been too long ago to recall the name and date, but we immediately recognized its importance, but did not think that it was undiscovered. It was not until I mentioned it to the Park Geologist that his reaction was... what?

We did not deface it out of respect to this individual who left this monument to others. And rightly so. He was there and explored before there was a National Monument and a vague interest to 99.9% of the population of the USA. It was NOT graffiti. Today... it would be at this "protected National Monument" and the culprit must be... well, must be served justice and rightly so. This is a National Monument.

Some of these exposed rock walls on Public Lands might receive the names and dates of individuals who visited. I have no problem with this. A hundred years from now it will be a protected site. Most likely not... but as humans, there are few ways to leave your presence toward future adventurers to know you share something together. Past and Present.

This is not tagging with a spray can of paint.

It takes time to leave an inscription onto a rock face that will last a year, or ten or five hundred years. Find your own place to make your mark. Leave those previously left by Indians, Settlers, Travelers, Geologists, Surveyers, etc. alone with a moment in time to leave their mark. Time will eventually erase all of these through weathering and erosion. There are more important problems for some to worry themselves over.

I respect the memories left by those before myself. These individuals have left their respects to the hostile environment they have visited, on foot, horse or mule. It is among those stalwart individuals I speak. NOT those that haven't the time, nor interest to take out, what they carry into... that are the problem many visualize in their first thoughts.

We are in an Inter Glacial period of the Pleistocene. One of many that have repeated themselves over time in North America. It is due, but the changes are slow and steady. Our marks on the surface will be scoured and laid to waste, so just enjoy your Summers and make the best of it. Geology does not play politics. It is written in Stone and the next Glaciers will arrive. Just when is the debate. To others these changes in climate never occurred, or if they did it will not... repeat a sixth, or seventh or... time.

There will be some that find some of this post... blasphemous. You have nothing better to do, obviously. I have dug my half hole and back filled it for your pleasure. I have a library of many thousands of volumes written by those who preceded myself into these difficult places to access. They left their names on the rock walls AND the printed page. Just leave US to our business and YOU to yours.
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