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Old 10-27-2007, 06:25 AM   #15
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Thanks Andy, I think it is good to remind everyone of what was given so that we can be free. I go to war memorials every time I am near one.
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Old 10-27-2007, 06:56 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland Andy
What has happened to some of us? Do we not care any more? Do some think that scene could not be repeated?
The problem is we have the people who don't care teaching the people who don't know... even though "that scene" has been repeated just 6 years ago on Sept 11, 2001... and it will be repeated again.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland Andy
Veterans and those of us that still care, should always be proud to honor those that gave their lives for us to be free.
All Americans should be proud... it's our duty! ...and it's the very least we can do.
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Old 10-27-2007, 07:38 AM   #17
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Caps and coverings

This past summer we took our young grandsons to the Vietnam Veterans' Memorial at Angel Fire, NM. They were excited about the helicopter outside which I knew they would be as they love all things big and mechanical. However, once inside I observed a change in their demeanor to one of quiet interest. At one point I noticed they had removed their caps and was pretty sure no one had told them to do so. I asked the younger one why he had taken his off. His answer: "Kyle took his off." So I asked Kyle (who always has a hat on) why he took his hat off. He said, "I saw Papa had his hat off."

At that point I realized they are ALWAYS watching and learning, even when we are not aware of it, and it is up to us to set the example of respect and reverence, and, yes, patriotism.

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Old 10-27-2007, 09:40 AM   #18
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Shrines affect different people in different ways. I rode my motorcycle up to Somerset PA with a bunch of guys last year. We rode out into the field where the terrorists hijacked the airliner and the passengers fought back. I saw the hole in the field where the airliner went down going 500mph.

There they've got a small shrine. It's not much, but it's something to demark the spot. There's a giant sign board up and people have come from all over to put flowers and jackets and stuff on it.

There were lots of people there. Most were crying. This one guy with me, Donald, is a big guy. Probably 6'6" and 400lbs. He made his big twin look like a mini bike. Donald had tears in his eyes. All the Harley guys removed their skull caps. Even the hard core "real" biker types I saw there, the kinds of guys I wouldn't care to hang out with, were reverent.

Me, I got mad. Pearl Harbor was bad enough (my old Sunday School teacher was there when it happened, he showed me pictures that he took on that fateful day....), but at least it was a military target. To think that a bunch of animals murdered a bunch of innocent civilians made my blood boil. I'm straying off topic a bit..... but anyway, the shrine up there to me meant a lot.

Were I in your position out there, Andy, I'd have been inclined to give some of those guys a knuckle sandwich. I know, I know, that's irrational. And I probably wouldn't really do it. But I'd sure be mad.

I don't wear a hat, but I do try to show the proper reverence. I bet most of them just didn't now any better though. Sad but true...
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Old 10-27-2007, 11:11 AM   #19
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Veterans, the Inhofe Legislation now allows any veteran to "Salute" the flag and not just hold your hand over your heart. You may salute in civilian clothing. I think that this is a splendid method of showing our patriotism and allowing the public to see how many of us are veterans!

.: United States Senator James Inhofe :: Press Room :.
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Old 10-27-2007, 12:08 PM   #20
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This thread's title brought to mind the Burning Man's 2008 theme, "The American Dream." I see this as very positive and forward thinking. I hope you do too. The theme will be about patriotism -- not that kind which freights the nation state with the collective weight of ego, but a patriotism based upon a love of country and culture. Leave ideology at home; forget the blue states and the red; let parties, factions and the issues that divide us fall away. Flag burning or flag worship play no part in this year's theme. Ask yourself, instead, a more immediate question. What has America achieved that you admire or feel proud of? What has it done or failed to do that makes you feel dismayed? Put blame aside, ... and dare to ask an even greater question: What can postmodern America yet give to the world?

In 2008, the Burning Man will stand atop a high-rise tower. Instead of windows, this edifice will feature images of flags that represent the countries of the world. Ranging from Canada to Chad, from Brazil to Burundi, from Vatican City to the Republic of China, these 244 symbols will shine in the night, gleaming like cut gems upon the surface of a jewel box. The United States of America will be among them. Each country can be said to represent a dream no less radiant or precious than the rest. Each nation may be viewed as a container of identity; yet each one can be said to be a glimmering illusion, an arbitrary entity defined by boundaries on a map. All of us are immigrants to Black Rock City. What can we dream America to be?

The best lessons from history are tutors to our future. I hope it teaches us to move ahead and wisely.
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Old 10-27-2007, 06:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested
This thread's title brought to mind the Burning Man's 2008 theme, "The American Dream." I see this as very positive and forward thinking. I hope you do too. The theme will be about patriotism -- not that kind which freights the nation state with the collective weight of ego, but a patriotism based upon a love of country and culture. Leave ideology at home; forget the blue states and the red; let parties, factions and the issues that divide us fall away. Flag burning or flag worship play no part in this year's theme. Ask yourself, instead, a more immediate question. What has America achieved that you admire or feel proud of? What has it done or failed to do that makes you feel dismayed? Put blame aside, ... and dare to ask an even greater question: What can postmodern America yet give to the world?

In 2008, the Burning Man will stand atop a high-rise tower. Instead of windows, this edifice will feature images of flags that represent the countries of the world. Ranging from Canada to Chad, from Brazil to Burundi, from Vatican City to the Republic of China, these 244 symbols will shine in the night, gleaming like cut gems upon the surface of a jewel box. The United States of America will be among them. Each country can be said to represent a dream no less radiant or precious than the rest. Each nation may be viewed as a container of identity; yet each one can be said to be a glimmering illusion, an arbitrary entity defined by boundaries on a map. All of us are immigrants to Black Rock City. What can we dream America to be?

The best lessons from history are tutors to our future. I hope it teaches us to move ahead and wisely.
I have to disagree with this statement, "Each country can be said to represent a dream no less radiant or precious than the rest.". I think not, ask some of the ordinary people in some of the communist regimes and oppressive dictatorial regimes what their dreams are. I believe you will be quite surprised by their dreams, many of which would be to get out of their present country and never look back. I served in the military and have seen what happens to the dreams of the people not in the "party" or close to the dictator's faction or family and I can promise you they don't believe the dreams of their country include them in the least. There are countries that imprison their citizens or worse for nothing more than disagreeing with who is in power, the same for those caught reading a bible or worshiping who they choose to, countries that torture, rape, mutilate their citizens if they catch even a whiff of discontent, countries where it is accepted practice to sew little girl's vaginas up and then later circumcise those same young girls without the aid of any anasthetic, I've personally seen bodies burned beyond recognition by a dictator who didn't like the tribe those he burned were from, millions have been killed under repressive regimes because they were too tall( different ethnicity) men women and children with their feet hacked off and left to bleed to death, and it goes on and on. Please don't dare to think that all countries wish the best of their citizenry or would ever let them have liberty. If a country has to keep it's people in by gunpoint then I would say their dreams for their people are all based in a cesspool. Luckily you live in a country where it's okay to say what you want instead of being jailed or killed for your comments.

America is the greatest country in the world and if you call this ideology that should be left at home, thats fine, since this is a free country but I carry mine with me every where I go. Yes I am a proud veteran of a foreign war and an even prouder American.
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Old 10-27-2007, 06:22 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cooperhawk
Veterans, the Inhofe Legislation now allows any veteran to "Salute" the flag and not just hold your hand over your heart. You may salute in civilian clothing. I think that this is a splendid method of showing our patriotism and allowing the public to see how many of us are veterans!

.: United States Senator James Inhofe :: Press Room :.
I love this legislation, I was able to salute the flag during revelrie this morning at my son's Cub Scout camp out.
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Old 10-27-2007, 07:28 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmossyone
America is the greatest country in the world and if you call this ideology that should be left at home, thats fine, since this is a free country but I carry mine with me every where I go. Yes I am a proud veteran of a foreign war and an even prouder American.
I was hesitant to say anymore and be called a "flag worshiper" again. I too have seen other cultures that I doubt some folks would believe. Thank you Mrmossyone. You said it very well.
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Old 10-27-2007, 09:26 PM   #24
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Thumbs up Have faith in the next generation...

Andy, thank you for the great post. While not having travelled w/ our children outside of the Great State of Texas, we have attempted to indoctrinate, yes, read that as brainwash, the minds of our children to the "God, family, country" philosophy.

Our local [public] school district has done an excellent job with presenting the most awe-inspiring Veteran's Day services during the school session, giving summarized history lessons and offering nationally-known keynote speakers during the ceremony. They also recognize by name each former veteran from our hometown, living and dead, in a muster format: someone is present who will stand for that person. The entire event is put on by the student body, with student council, FFA, FCCLA, 4-H, band, and student athletes officiating over the service. And yes, the local clergy also takes part.

Furthermore, the school has adopted an informal "Thank a Vet" campaign. It's so cool to see your kids go shake hands with and thank a uniformed military man while shopping in Wal-Mart.

These are truly awesome achievements for a small Texas town of 606 souls. However, I would like to think that our town is not alone in these endeavors. While the mainstream media would have us think that national pride is going down the drain, the not-so-mainstreamers [Airstreamers too] will quietly and respectfully maintain the dignity of our veterans and their sacrifices.
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Old 10-27-2007, 09:30 PM   #25
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"Lest We Forget"

Andy,

Thank you for your post. Just the fact that you not only noticed this but then took the time to start this thread is awesome.

My mother's only brother was killed in the war, leaving a family of 9 sisters and his mother who was already widowed and struggling to support a family. That left a scar on the family that never quite healed.

The United States of America, in particular, has been the flag bearer and shining light for freedom around the world. The sacrifice has been huge, it has never stopped, and the USA continues to be an inspiration to the rest of the world. Sadly there is no light at the end of this tunnel. As Andy typed his message it is highly likely that people were dying in a war.

Regrettably most of today's youth have been for the most part heavily insulated from war due to the sacrifices of others. They don't understand it the way we did as children - the way things are communicated today seems to be very clinical and impersonal.

IMHO - if the vast majority of veterans volunteered to go to a school classroom and talk to the students about what Lest We Forget and the wearing of the poppy is all about, and about how that veteran made the commitment and what that meant, I believe very quickly those students will understand, and scenes like Andy witnessed will start to disappear. This is happening in many areas today, but I believe that they are only a small part of the country (yours and mine by the way). Some areas do an extraordinary job of sharing the experiences of the vets, but many schools have probably never had a vet come to address them (I hope I'm wrong, but that's my belief).

I believe it is the responsibility of those who truly know, who have fought for freedom, to share that message in a meaningful way. It is not a big commitment, but the impact of doing this could be significant.

I suspect few if any of those people Andy witnessed consciously meant to be disrespectful, or hopefully not, but with time the magnitude and the horror has been muted and people do not know any more how to even show the respect that is due. They don't see that on TV, or on the video games, and I don't know if they "get the message" when they are taught about war in a classroom. It's just another part of a bunch of lessons they have to learn out of a book and the way it's portrayed on TV and their video games it's almost exciting.

Go to your local school as a veteran and volunteer to tell the students about what Lest We Forget means and why you wear a poppy.

Be sure to them about your own involvement and what that means for those students. Having someone who's "been there" come to class and talk about what they experienced and how that has changed that person for the rest of their life makes it real and brings it alive for them. Now there's a face to the story and the lesson. It could be as simple as a Q&A if that's what you are comfortable with, but they need to hear it from people who have a story to tell.

That's what I believe needs to happen for what it's worth. We want people to understand and to show the respect that is owed, but we need to tell them in a more personal way than I believe they are getting it today.

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Old 10-28-2007, 12:02 AM   #26
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Andy,

Appreciated your post on the Arizona. Have never been there but, I think it should elicite the same somber response that the Tomb of the Unknown does at Arlington.

The japanese were simply put, the wealthy haves of their society and we should expect nothing more than what you observed. It is the same for our own young people from the well to do segments of our society. They are not in Iraq today, & they weren't in Vietnam. We no longer know our geography, history, etc. so I am not surprised to see the response of Americans as well.

Your eyes see but, it is your heart & soul that places the value on the situation. If our society deems it unnecessary to teach gratitude & respect for the ultimate sacrifice to country, then we get exactly what you have
described. I don't blame the young americans as much as the society that is so weak that it cannot preserve these values we hold so high.

I am an inactive boy scouter today but, for the last 20 years, the troops I have been involved with have taught these values and have made troop attendance at cemetaries on veterans day a matter of importance. If one of the folks with the hats on were an ex boyscout, then I would be very dis-appointed.
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Old 10-28-2007, 01:09 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested
This thread's title brought to mind the Burning Man's 2008 theme, "The American Dream." I see this as very positive and forward thinking. I hope you do too. The theme will be about patriotism -- not that kind which freights the nation state with the collective weight of ego, but a patriotism based upon a love of country and culture. Leave ideology at home; forget the blue states and the red; let parties, factions and the issues that divide us fall away. Flag burning or flag worship play no part in this year's theme. Ask yourself, instead, a more immediate question. What has America achieved that you admire or feel proud of? What has it done or failed to do that makes you feel dismayed? Put blame aside, ... and dare to ask an even greater question: What can postmodern America yet give to the world?

In 2008, the Burning Man will stand atop a high-rise tower. Instead of windows, this edifice will feature images of flags that represent the countries of the world. Ranging from Canada to Chad, from Brazil to Burundi, from Vatican City to the Republic of China, these 244 symbols will shine in the night, gleaming like cut gems upon the surface of a jewel box. The United States of America will be among them. Each country can be said to represent a dream no less radiant or precious than the rest. Each nation may be viewed as a container of identity; yet each one
can be said to be................................................ ........................... .................................................. ................................................
.................................................. .................................................
.................................................. ....blah, blah, blah
AAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gulp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry Carol..................................

Richard here, not Robin.

I have bitten my tongue a million times after reading threads like this on the forum. I came here first to seek trailer/mechanical type info, and later for rally and camping-buddy connections and have (with few exceptions: http://www.airforums.com/forums/f161...tml#post338706) rarely strayed into vaguely related topics. Robin kinda stole my online airforums identity once I showed her what was happening here, but that's O.K.; you get one of us, you get both!

This "theme" however, makes me want to create my own separate forum I.D. so that I may respond without causing some sort of identity crisis/confusion, but is this what I really come to this forum for??? While the Burning Man event is certainly Airstream related, next year's theme is incredibly politically charged, despite their insinuation that it is not. Yet, there it is, on this forum (and other online sites) for all to see.

Does it even belong in this thread?

mrmossyone and The Flintstones posts are closer to reality than the manipulative, touchy-feely, brainwashing "theme" attached to Burning Man '08.
As I've said before...... Gosh, did actually COMMENT on something? I must be over-tired!


......sorry
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Old 10-28-2007, 02:29 AM   #28
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No reason to be sorry Richard. I didn't think I'd hit on total agreement. I appreciate your expression. But tis true the thread title did remind me of what I had read and I thought I would share it. It may not be Airstream related but I do think it fits in the context of this thread in as much as the original post was neither Airstream related. I don't see the theme I related as a negative though myself. I usually stay away from these threads too but this time I thought as long as it was brought up and I was reading it and aroused by it, I would make what I felt was a post of positive thinking. However I am not certain why issue would be taken with such a broad and even theme, as to whether it be the giving of equal respect to people of other countries or whether it is admitting that Americans also have room to grow and learn. ???

I come in peace with food for thought and have respect for all the posters. I find these topics divisive and super charged. Couldn't hold my tongue either. Perhaps these threads should also be invisible and have their own subforum as do the games.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rgesch
AAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gulp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry Carol..................................

Richard here, not Robin.

I have bitten my tongue a million times after reading threads like this on the forum. I came here first to seek trailer/mechanical type info, and later for rally and camping-buddy connections and have (with few exceptions: http://www.airforums.com/forums/f161...tml#post338706) rarely strayed into vaguely related topics. Robin kinda stole my online airforums identity once I showed her what was happening here, but that's O.K.; you get one of us, you get both!

This "theme" however, makes me want to create my own separate forum I.D. so that I may respond without causing some sort of identity crisis/confusion, but is this what I really come to this forum for??? While the Burning Man event is certainly Airstream related, next year's theme is incredibly politically charged, despite their insinuation that it is not. Yet, there it is, on this forum (and other online sites) for all to see.

Does it even belong in this thread?

mrmossyone and The Flintstones posts are closer to reality than the manipulative, touchy-feely, brainwashing "theme" attached to Burning Man '08.
As I've said before...... Gosh, did actually COMMENT on something? I must be over-tired!


......sorry
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