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Old 08-29-2019, 06:21 PM   #6001
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WOW, so sorry to hear and so glad your daughter was home with you to help you untangle that mess.

Not only that but now it is going to interfere with your guys's ability to visit at their place. Safety first.

Aside from the Pitts interaction with Lily how does the Pitt behave with the other two pets in the house any similar occurrences of dominance or Alphaness.

Is the Pitt the same dog that was so super cute with the ginormous paws.

Bud will likely have some good information for you.
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Old 08-29-2019, 06:45 PM   #6002
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Lucy the pit mix, and Lenny the adorable one with the droopy eyes.

Lucy is also an alpha female, but for four days there have been no problems, it seemed the mere presence of the shock collar was a big help, but when the time came to have to use it there was no help at all.

Lucy is clearly dominant with the other dogs in the house, but they are fine with that, and she is good with them.

I will visit without Lily, meaning probably flying in for a few days at a time.

I may need to drive my car at least once, as Nanaís trunk they picked up is too big to transport home in the Interstate.

I am concerned the pit mix canít be stopped, once she starts. Electric fence outside the house and another at the upstairs to protect the cat.

Maggie
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Old 08-29-2019, 06:55 PM   #6003
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. . .
The pit just seemed to snap, and there was no getting her back.
. . .
For many, that may be hard-wired into the genes, unfortunately.

Glad you are all OK.

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Old 08-29-2019, 07:00 PM   #6004
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I think that is true, and thank you.

Fortunately the dog didn’t turn on me or my daughter, me whacking her on the muzzle and my daughter pulling her away.

Reading about this online...of course ...genetics are one factor with this kind of behavior.

I think they need to purchase some professional intervention with this dog, and fear it is only a matter of time before another incident...tho Lily will be permanently out of reach.

Maggie
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Old 08-29-2019, 07:04 PM   #6005
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One factor, about which any dog owner should be aware, is that homeowner's insurance may not cover damages caused by a dog with known violent tendencies. Don't want to say more, but . . . food for thought IMO.

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Old 08-29-2019, 07:20 PM   #6006
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I feel a bit in shock over the event, and am sure Lily feels the same way.

She had it right when we arrived, refusing to go into the house and going back to the Interstate.

She knew.

Maggie
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Old 08-29-2019, 07:28 PM   #6007
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. . .
She knew.
. . .
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Old 08-30-2019, 07:23 AM   #6008
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Maggie,
Bud can weigh in on this but I read years ago that one should not play tug of war with a dog as it encourages combative behavior toward humans by the dog. Lily probably reacted to the perceived threat and the other dog reacted to that. We have not played tug of war with our dogs because of this, opting for toss and fetch. When the dog returns with the toy we say thank you and wait until they drop it or take it by pinching their jaws.

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Old 08-30-2019, 08:58 AM   #6009
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Spoke with Bud this morning, and he was of course very helpful and clarified some things I had already learned online.

I did learn last night that Lucy attacked the smallish, older dog in the home a couple of months ago, after the little one got too close to a treat of Lucy’s.

Lucy grabbed her by the back of the neck, would not let go, and was shaking her, fortunately there were two adults in the home to separate them but there was blood shed and the little one required veterinary care.

There is no legitimate reason or excuse for not telling me about this before we arrived, as it prevented me from making an informed decision about bringing Lily in here.

Bud suggests an animal behaviorist, to assess Lucy and advise them, possibly on training, how to feed her and play with her, and what to watch out for.

I have relayed all this, of course.

I am sad, for several reasons.

Maggie
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Old 08-30-2019, 09:28 AM   #6010
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Maggie and I did talk this am. Itís always difficult to asses a dog without being there for several hours, watching, observing, and taking notes. That said my basic assessment is this activity was precipitated by toys or rawhide in the area with both dogs; tug of war, which as Al said is a never; Lily attacking Lucy and then itís off. We purposefully put dog aggressive dogs together in our place to asses and teach. Dogs communicate with each other and us if we watch every second they are awake, itís constant. My guess there were multiple signals going on between both dogs long before the incident. It could have been stopped but probably not once the tug of war started.

This Lucy is what we call a dangerous dog, not attack is ever acceptable and thatís what we train and work toward in our training. Some donít make it. Genetics are part, environmental influences are a bigger influencer, weak patronizing owners foster bad behavior whether itís aggressive or just naughty stuff.

I recommended a behaviorist, I am not but have worked with several the best are Veterinarians who move into this field and some have their Doctorate in human Psychology. They usually then recommend changes with specific trainers they know or destruction. Not all dogs are salvageable.

I wished Maggie my best and agreed with her decision to leave Lily out of this moving forward. The longer one waits to correct poor behavior and or traits the longer the changes will take.

My Best To All

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Old 08-30-2019, 09:37 AM   #6011
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I have relayed it all, verbatim, and thank you again for taking the time to do what you do, Bud.

Lily is still limping a little this morning, but otherwise seems okay.

I am current with my tetanus shots, thanks for asking.

Will watch Lily for any sign of infection, and hopefully I can find someplace to bathe her soon so that I can get a better look at her wounds.

Maggie
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Old 08-30-2019, 09:41 AM   #6012
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On another note...

Been looking into activities in Glacier with the grands next June, and plan a half day whitewater rafting excursion on the Flathead River.

They have taken people as old as 90, the rapids we will be in are mild enough for all ages, and I think it will be great fun for we flatlanders.

There is also a Great Plains Indian museum and an old Mercantile, in addition to the usual in-Park sights, the GTTSR, etc.

If yíall have any Glacier suggestions, please chime in.

Maggie
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Old 08-30-2019, 09:54 AM   #6013
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I have relayed it all, verbatim, and thank you again for taking the time to do what you do, Bud.

Lily is still limping a little this morning, but otherwise seems okay.

I am current with my tetanus shots, thanks for asking.

Will watch Lily for any sign of infection, and hopefully I can find someplace to bathe her soon so that I can get a better look at her wounds.

Maggie

If Lily is still favoring her leg I might suggest a vet visit. A dog bite can do interior damage that we don't see and if a dog is showing pain it's really in pain as genetically they hide pain if at all possible, it's a sign of weakness in the pack mentality.

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Old 08-30-2019, 09:56 AM   #6014
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Thanks, Bud.

Maggie
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:02 AM   #6015
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Maggie,

Re: Glacier, plan to take the shuttle streetcars on the going to the sun road. The open coaches give a great view. You probably can't take your Interstate on the road as there are length limits.

Al
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:57 AM   #6016
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I am planning the red bus tour, and thanks, Al.

I’m going to rent a car for our stay, but doing the shuttle will allow me to see everything, too.

Walked into a vet hospital in New Paltz and a little vet dynamo named Allison assessed Lily’s injuries, treated her and had us out the door with two antibiotics and an anti inflammatory for the pain.

She said the wound on her right foreleg, which I don’t even remember occurring, was much more serious than those on her neck, because there are puncture wounds there which can abscess.

I think Lily’s collar and her extra folds of thickly furred skin there prevented Lucy from getting a more serious grip on her neck.

When I told the vet what had happened, and then learning of the small dog being grabbed and shaken a couple of months ago, she said “they have a problem”.

Yes.

We are tucked into a beautiful little river access area where I think we will stay til the morning...shhhh.

Maggie
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Old 08-30-2019, 01:35 PM   #6017
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Glad you got Lily taken care of as I knew you would. IIRC the pit mix was adopted. You really can't know the history of an adopted animal and pits can be either great pets or a hazard. It is unfortunate, but once that hostility is bred or trained into them there is often little that can be done.

Enjoy Glacier. We had a great time. I want to do another western trip with a lot of dispersed camping included. I think we would enjoy just sitting around and taking in the scenery, but now that I have my left hip back, I could be up for some hikes. I'm gradually increasing my walking - up to 1.3 miles (an odd number, but a convenient loop in our neighborhood) three time a week now and probably going to up it next week.

Al
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Old 08-30-2019, 02:10 PM   #6018
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Thank you, Al, and hope you continue to improve.

DD and SIL have little understanding of pack behavior/dog dynamics, something none of us learn in school and only acquire by choice and happenstance.

They don’t see the over the top response of the pit as problematic, only that she is “provoked” by the behaviors of other dogs.

Lily did nip at Lucy, attempting to correct what she saw as aggressive behavior, but didn’t bite her.

Lily is the only one with wounds, and I feel certain if the pit could have gotten to her again she would have torn her apart.

They have agreed to seek expertise, that’s the best I can do.

Bud also suggested SIL speak with a K9 officer, which may be enlightening.

Maggie
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Old 08-30-2019, 04:02 PM   #6019
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Sorry to hear that Lily got injured. Sweet girl doesn't deserve that. Is Lucy up to date on her rabies vaccinations? If not, check with your doc and Lily's vet about that.

I got bitten by a small kitten (too young for rabies vaccine) recently, and ended up going through the series of shots myself. Not ever fun, but not the horror stories I hear from years ago.
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Old 08-30-2019, 04:07 PM   #6020
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Hi Mimi.

Lucy is of course up to date on her shots.

Lily hasn’t eaten today, but for an egg I gave her with her first dose of antibiotics, but seems to be feeling better than she was this morning.

They gave her a shot of an anti inflammatory at the office, which seemed to do the trick.

She has let me hold and touch her leg to look at it, which she wouldn’t this morning, and has a barely noticeable limp.



I have been reading this afternoon and doing a little tidying in the Interstate...we have been in recovery mode today.

Maggie
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