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Old 04-27-2007, 08:04 PM   #57
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Jim, I think your first 2 points explain why they're not going to make hydrogen powered internal combustion engines; the idea is to use hydrogen fuel cells to generate electricity to drive an electric motor.

And the Europeans ARE doing something about it. I saw on one of those science shows (Nova, perhaps?) about how far the Norwegians have gone with this...one of their main x-country highways is soon going to be traversable on Hydrogen. (they're making sure that there are sufficient fueling stations to go from one end of the country to the other.). Icenland has also done alot w/ fuel cell technology, sitting on all that geo-thermal energy (i.e. "free" electricity...at least, fossil-fuel free).
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Old 04-27-2007, 08:23 PM   #58
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What's amazing is a professor says "We'll need European-level gas prices before the U.S. engine of innovation gets really serious."

If that were the case why haven't the Europeans led on this innovation? If they haven't why would we?


That is a very good point.

Brazil sold many Ethanol-only cars back in the 80's.
Don't think it worked as well as hoped, but is something.
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Old 04-27-2007, 08:58 PM   #59
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The States of CA, OR, WA and the Province of BC have agreed in principle to create a "hydrogen highway" from LA to Whistler. I am unsure of timing but I believe they are hoping to do something prior to the 2010 Olympics at Whistler - but that may be wrong timing understanding on my part.

I have a friend who designs injection systems to inject natural gas at high pressure into diesel engines which cuts operating costs by quite a bit. Cummins has invested heavily in their company and these units are being sold globally to the commercial sector. They run significantly cleaner, more power, fewer contaminants in the oil, and I'm not sure of other benefits they mention. There's still a lot of creativity going on out in the real world. The move to fuels generated by such things as waste from beer (Coors is already selling their former waste materials for fuel) to what is grown in the fields (I understand virtually any product, not just corn, can be used) will be on us sooner than many of us expect.

I am just grateful I was born when I was and thus able to enjoy my automotive hobbies in a big way at affordable prices, have seen incredible things happen like the man on the moon, the computer invented, cell phones, and all the technology stuff, and now we get to see another evolution/revolution. These are exciting, albeit expensive, times. Heading into the hills for those camp-outs is going to be that much more relaxing getting away from all the stuff that's coming at us.

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Old 04-27-2007, 09:26 PM   #60
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Here's my view on fuel prices--obviously the gov is doing nothing to protect the consumer with this issue. That said we are conservative with fuel usagebut continue to travel and drive as needed and have not changed plans due to $$$cost. We simply do like most busness's do{we're not a business} that being we pass the cost on to others. We do that by spending less on non esentials. We eat out less, buy fewer packaged foods, trade vehicles less often, shop for items we need not items we want because styles change, drop subscription to mags. and publications, shop for sale items as much as possible, eliminate entertainment like movies etc, purchase more on line,etc. If you do that you don't pay the additional fuel prices but pass them on to other business's. Sooner or later the econony will realize the burden thats placed on it by the petrol. industry.---pieman
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Old 04-28-2007, 05:57 AM   #61
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You'd think the gov would do something if they all saw the post before this one by Pieman. What's the worse of 2 evils....less gas tax revenue or less sales taxes, from lost sales=jobs?
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Old 04-28-2007, 06:22 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie
You'd think the gov would do something if they all saw the post before this one by Pieman. What's the worse of 2 evils....less gas tax revenue or less sales taxes, from lost sales=jobs?
Just as in cigarette sales, the govt will continue to raise taxes to make up the difference in tax revenues as more consumers quit smoking and we use less fuel by buying more efficient vehicles.

Its an oxymoron. They've raised taxes to change our use habits but then they don't like the results of less tax revenue. DUH?

As in anything there are trade offs.

I enjoyed these articles about how the Prius:

Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage

<http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188>

Prius can't pass Georgia emissions test

<http://economy.autoblog.com/2007/04/16/prius-cant-pass-georgia-emissions-test/>

Some more fun fuel related tidbits:

Study Says Ethanol Pollution Could Rival Gas

<http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9647424>

"A new study warns of the health risks from ethanol that could end up creating a worse health hazard than gasoline. LA would be hardest hit because ethanol creates more ozone than gasoline does," i.e., ethanol could end up polluting more than gasoline does.
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Old 04-28-2007, 05:47 PM   #63
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what will Hydrogen used in cars do to the humidity levels in places like Phoenix AZ with all that water comming out of the tail pipes?
Make it into Miami FL?

No one has given me a good answer in the past so will try here
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Old 04-29-2007, 09:52 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmini
what will Hydrogen used in cars do to the humidity levels in places like Phoenix AZ with all that water comming out of the tail pipes?
Make it into Miami FL?

No one has given me a good answer in the past so will try here
I have posed that question many times, here and elsewhere. What will the impact on the micro-climate of cities be, cities like Atlanta where the humidity level is already high and there are no sea breezes to carry the extra humidity away like Miami has.
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Old 04-29-2007, 11:43 AM   #65
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It's been discovered atmospheric particle shading (soot, etc.) is reducing evaporation globally - it is the photons striking surface waters' molecules that play a key role for moisture cycles counted on for generations.

With reduced sunshine the reduced evaporation can/is/will wreak havoc downwind. So perhaps the H2 economy will help; already they have empiric proof the efforts of US air pollution abatement means downwind of North America has the most normal evaporative cycles of any continent!!
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Old 04-30-2007, 06:50 AM   #66
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Gas has been in the $4 range for about six months for those who fly. What's next?
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Old 04-30-2007, 07:47 AM   #67
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Hey Jim,

I'm with ya! Look at my Sprinter. 154HP 5 cylinder diesel that gets 20-22mpg with the van weighing about 8000lb in work trim. Pulling my 19' CCD, I get 14-17MPG at highway speeds. That translates to moving about 12,000 lb total. So it slows a bit going up long grades..... SO WHAT?

The Euros have small efficient diesels that are getting 50-60 mpg that aren't sold here. The promise of better diesel technology and the use of biodiesel are tremendous, but as usual, the 'Big Three' in Detroit just aren't getting this message, even though they sell way more diesels ion Eorupe and can see what they do in that market to their bottom line.

A big conglomerate like Archer Daniels Midland, based in the agriculture industry and a huge food processor, has the capability to make huge amounts of bio-diesel. Small design mods to existing diesel engine technology like using Viton seals would allow anyone to use bio in a diesel engine.

The un-holy alliance between the oil industry, government and the technocrats is keeping this technology from being developed, and NOTHING will happen to this end until we run out of oil. With the potential for alternative fuels out there like bio-diesel and LP powered engines, oil should be used as a raw material for manufacturing and not for a motor fuel.

IMHO, hydrogen is just a pipe dream, considering the HUGE amount of dollars that would need to be expended in infrastructure, supply and SAFETY concerns. The technology for viable alternatives is here NOW, you just have to do it your self for the forseeable future!
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:11 AM   #68
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Quote:
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IMHO, hydrogen is just a pipe dream, considering the HUGE amount of dollars that would need to be expended in infrastructure, supply and SAFETY concerns. The technology for viable alternatives is here NOW, you just have to do it your self for the forseeable future!
the tech for Hydrogen is mostly here already, too. Its just a matter of implementation. at one time, (not really all that long ago), there wasn't a gas station on every corner, either. that'll change. It could change in a hurry, with proper motivation. (government incentives, etc).
the safety issue is simply one of PR and education. Hydrogen is safer to handle than gasoline. But right now, when you say "hydrogen", people envision "Hindenburg". We're comfortable w/ gas because we're so familiar with it. same for electricity and propane...heck, driving in general is the most dangerous thing we do...kills tens of thousands of people per year, and we do it without batting an eyelash.

In the mean time, though, yeah; diesel would be great, if you didn't have to buy a Peterbuilt to get it. When I bought my 1/2-ton truck, in order to get something with the same options, AND a diesel engine would have cost nearly 50% more...because the engine available was huge...and 3/4 ton was required. those 2 options =$10,000, at the time. Nuts!!
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:22 AM   #69
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Quote:
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In the mean time, though, yeah; diesel would be great, if you didn't have to buy a Peterbuilt to get it. When I bought my 1/2-ton truck, in order to get something with the same options, AND a diesel engine would have cost nearly 50% more...because the engine available was huge...and 3/4 ton was required. those 2 options =$10,000, at the time. Nuts!!
Well I guess I'm one of those suckers who ponied up for the big diesel motor to pull the 34 footer we just bought. Wanted the capability to be able load the truck with our kayaks and other stuff along with towing the trailer and didn't see any other options.

Couldn't wait to see when Mercedes was going to release their blue tech (sp) diesel for their larger SUVs as the wife found the trailer she wanted.

I lived and worked in Europe for a couple years recently and had a 1.9L turbo diesel Passatt that just plain kicked butt. Of course they would have been practically no where to take a 34' Airstream though.

I see the new E320 diesel gets close to 40mpg.

The other thing I don't know about hydrogen is what does it really cost in energy to make the stuff so we can use it?
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:26 AM   #70
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When we moved from Holland 5 months ago we thought the American system was better than the Dutch. In Holland the prices only went up and never down, but seems to be the same way here now. A lot of small companies will be in trouble, only because the big companies are getting richer and richer.
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