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Old 04-24-2007, 07:31 PM   #29
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I paid about $4 last summer in Yellowstone. To me that seemed like gouging when you cross over the park line and it's $1 cheaper. By the way there is a federal website to report gouging.

But it's not all bad. If high prices reduce use that's good. If low income people can't afford the gas to get to their minimum wage job, that's bad. If municipalities have more tax money in their coffers to provide services thats good too.
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Old 04-24-2007, 08:01 PM   #30
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Some radom thoughts

I have been hearing about "price gouging" and "corporate greed" since the first spike in oil prices in 1973. If someone offers a product at a price, and someone else agrees to that price, then - and you have to follow this closely - BOTH parties end up better off (or at least they THINK they are better off, which is not always the same thing). If YOU get the government to fix the price so that you can have both more of their product and more of your money, then you are yourself acting from greed.

The cost to produce something does not, in itself, determine the price. If it did Bill Gates would never have become a billionaire.

A corporation cannot be greedy, only people can be greedy. And we all are, aren't we? Have you ever heard of anyone who told an employer/customer that they could do the job for 20% less? Or told a plumber, electrician, RV repairman that they'd be glad to pay more than was asked? Or ever returned any unspent money to a pension fund?

The poster who claimed that no new US refineries have been built in 20 years is quite wrong. It is over 35 years.

The Europeans have many jokes about how American's have only one cheese. They would probably joke about us having more than 100 different government-mandated gasoline formulations, but who would believe anything so ridiculous?

It could not have been easy, but in a single legislative act our government representatives have managed to drive up the price of fuel and the price of much of our food, increase our dependence on foreign oil, and increase government spending. Yes, ethanol mandates have done all of that.

Ethanol carries a $.50 per gallon subsidy from the Federal Government, more from some states. It still takes a bit more btu's of oil to grow, refine, and transport ethanol than the resulting ethanol contains. This is sometimes confused by comparing gallons to gallons: you can now get slightly more than a gallon of ethanol from a gallon of oil inputs, but ethanol has about 75% of the btu value per gallon. And the milk you drink, the eggs, hamburger and chicken you eat, the ice cream you splurge on, the bread you buy, plus many other foodstuffs, are all going up uP UP, thanks to ethanol mandates. The corn which goes to fuel is not available to feed to animals or people. Oh, and a few hundred thousand people will now be starving to death, but hey, it's not anyone I know.

Survey after survey has discovered extremely high interest in mass transportation projects. Follow up surveys have also discovered extremely low interest in people using it themselves. It appears that mass trasportation projects are believed by most people to be a good way to get everybody else off their road.

If oil company profits are so high, the easiest way to beat the game is to get in on it. Their stocks are available five days a week, either individually or through mutual funds. Yes, you too can become a filthy rich oil company owner and share in the obscene profits!


Mark
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Old 04-25-2007, 07:04 PM   #31
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In my travels I have traveled on about every kind of public transportation known. They all su**ed. I will take private transportation over public any day of the week.

The goal should not be to reduce peoples' freedoms (aka restricted to "the bus"), but to retain or increase them with clean fuels.

OK, I'm going to have to buy a second Excella, cut and rivet them together and put them on a custom frame to make a super classic 50' motorhome and power it with a steam turbine driving electric traction motors. I'll still have 20' left to camp in. Back to the Future
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Old 04-25-2007, 08:01 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnie's Mate
Not to pick on you Mike, but do you think Airstream buyers today would settle for an Airstream that doesn't have a gray water tank? What about a 10 gallon fresh water tank? Do you think they could get by with a goffer hole in a camp ground? Would they settle for a gaucho instead of a queen island bed in that Classic's bedroom? Would a pipe frame pass safety inspection today? Would a buyer today buy an Airstream without A/C? What about a converter or batteries? What about a two burner stove instead of a three? Would you buy a new Airstream without a microwave oven? What about only two overhead storage bins? Would you want a smaller 'fridge? Would you give up carpet for vinyl tile floors? Would a single gas cylinder be enough for your camping needs?
Are you talking about the base camp? or the T@B? I wonder how sales are going for those trailers.
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Old 04-25-2007, 08:34 PM   #33
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Diesel dropped 2 pennies this week (Chandler, AZ)

My Loves truck stop off I-10 (Gila Reservation) was $2.85 now it is $2.83.
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Old 04-25-2007, 10:30 PM   #34
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Mark, thanks for pointing out the issues with ethanol and the lack of refineries. It's so easy to blame this group or that person.
I'm not an economist (or anything even close). It seems like fuel has pretty much kept pace with other goods over the course of the last 40 some years I've been aware of prices of goods. Maybe even risen at a slower pace.
Hmm - I wonder.....maybe we aren't as bad off as we thought?
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Old 04-26-2007, 03:39 AM   #35
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I agree.

I believe it is an unholy alliance between big oil and the environmental folks who prevent drilling in our own back yard.

No new refineries in 35 years.. Yes, that would restrict supply. Its tough to argue against that point.

No new drilling off the coast or in Alaska. Again, restriction of supply of domestic US oil...

Just think about it next time you vote...




Quote:
Originally Posted by j54mark
Some radom thoughts

I have been hearing about "price gouging" and "corporate greed" since the first spike in oil prices in 1973. If someone offers a product at a price, and someone else agrees to that price, then - and you have to follow this closely - BOTH parties end up better off (or at least they THINK they are better off, which is not always the same thing). If YOU get the government to fix the price so that you can have both more of their product and more of your money, then you are yourself acting from greed.

The cost to produce something does not, in itself, determine the price. If it did Bill Gates would never have become a billionaire.

A corporation cannot be greedy, only people can be greedy. And we all are, aren't we? Have you ever heard of anyone who told an employer/customer that they could do the job for 20% less? Or told a plumber, electrician, RV repairman that they'd be glad to pay more than was asked? Or ever returned any unspent money to a pension fund?

The poster who claimed that no new US refineries have been built in 20 years is quite wrong. It is over 35 years.

The Europeans have many jokes about how American's have only one cheese. They would probably joke about us having more than 100 different government-mandated gasoline formulations, but who would believe anything so ridiculous?

It could not have been easy, but in a single legislative act our government representatives have managed to drive up the price of fuel and the price of much of our food, increase our dependence on foreign oil, and increase government spending. Yes, ethanol mandates have done all of that.

Ethanol carries a $.50 per gallon subsidy from the Federal Government, more from some states. It still takes a bit more btu's of oil to grow, refine, and transport ethanol than the resulting ethanol contains. This is sometimes confused by comparing gallons to gallons: you can now get slightly more than a gallon of ethanol from a gallon of oil inputs, but ethanol has about 75% of the btu value per gallon. And the milk you drink, the eggs, hamburger and chicken you eat, the ice cream you splurge on, the bread you buy, plus many other foodstuffs, are all going up uP UP, thanks to ethanol mandates. The corn which goes to fuel is not available to feed to animals or people. Oh, and a few hundred thousand people will now be starving to death, but hey, it's not anyone I know.

Survey after survey has discovered extremely high interest in mass transportation projects. Follow up surveys have also discovered extremely low interest in people using it themselves. It appears that mass trasportation projects are believed by most people to be a good way to get everybody else off their road.

If oil company profits are so high, the easiest way to beat the game is to get in on it. Their stocks are available five days a week, either individually or through mutual funds. Yes, you too can become a filthy rich oil company owner and share in the obscene profits!


Mark
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Old 04-26-2007, 03:50 AM   #36
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Have you ever noticed (at least since 1975) we have a sortage of gas ,,,,but there is all you want if you want to pay 3.50 a gallon???? LISTEN FOLKS....gas prices are set by wall street speculators dealing in futures. If you don't believe that.....well...life will go on anyway.

I am going to buy a new Airstream and NEW truck,,,,and I am going to drive them anytime anywhere I want..even to the POOR HOUSE.
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Old 04-26-2007, 05:21 AM   #37
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hi the community;
Since a couple of years now, As I was really fed up to pay gazoline in FRANCE, always at a high price ( today 1,25 Euro/ liter = $6,75 / US gal....) I have decided to equip my vehicles with LPG system; LPG prices are cheaper than gazoline ( 0,45 Euro / liter = $2,22/ US Gal ) so even with my F150 , with his reasonable consumption, I think i'm right in my choice even I pull my Airstream.
Even if this way is interesting for all drivers, it seems that our government don't want to develop this energy ... not so much taxes in comparaison with the gazoline and diesel ... and LPG is green, no polution ... You see where is the benefice for the planet ?

Bruno;
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Old 04-26-2007, 07:46 AM   #38
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You know, if the EV1 was out and the other EV cars and truck that were made didn't wind up in at the junk yard to be scrapped, pehaps we'd all be singing a different tune today. Keep in mind this was technology from 1996, 11 years ago. Not a peep was said about electrics until recently, so a long time has passed and just now, we are only seeing concept cars like the Volt.

Toyota I've heard has a Volt like Prius in the works.

I'm all for a car that can go 40 miles before needing a drop of gas. I read Brunoffrance's post about how the government this and that, and I finally realized that we really all are screwin' the pooch here. I knew Europe was paying much higher than here in the US, but it just hit me that there are few things out there to REALLY help solve this problem. It goes just so far beyond a global warming thing. With gas at $4/gallon, the poor only get more poor because the meger living they make, more of it gets spent to get to work, the middle class slips even closer the the abyss, and the rich, well, they are rich, they just become slightly less rich.

I agree with a lot that has been said here, but I am also keenly aware that there is profit and there is profit made on the backs of others and IMHO the profits of big oil are out of site. I know it's not all big oils fault. I know the futures traders, etc are a bunch of Enron type trolls. I'm also aware that in most parts of the country taxes make up a good part of the cost of gas.

So, what is the incentive for hybrid electric plug ins? The state, local and federal governments won't collect as much taxes, cause you'd use less fuel. The oil industry lobby would be out of a job, profits could shrink and the governments wouldn't get as much income tax and taxes that pay for road upkeep, but the consumer and the environment would benefit greatly, but there is NO PROFIT in helping the consumer or the environment.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no tree hugger and by definition, as an RVer, we damage the environment more than our non- RVer counterparts all in the sake of a recreation.

My point is though that enough is enough, both here and abroad. Many good people are being hurt by this reckless abandon that is being allowed to continue. It's beyond about time some real solutions and headway were made in alternate powered vehicles...if but only commuter cars at first, at least it'd be something more than what we have now.......

Seems to me the traders and big oil's profits are being made on the hardships of others. To me that simply smacks of bottom feeding.
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Old 04-26-2007, 09:03 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverback
My Loves truck stop off I-10 (Gila Reservation) was $2.85 now it is $2.83.
-Ken
It's all cyclical. Gasoline dropped from $2.79 Monday morning to a low of $2.67 Wednesday morning at the Race Track on my way to work...it jumped to $2.78 by Wednesday afternoon at the same station!

How do you explain a $.12 drop over a three day period and then an $.11 jump in one day during the same week? There seems to be no logic to the cycle.
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Old 04-26-2007, 09:10 AM   #40
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Don't know what yur all moanin about?

In the UK petrol (gas) is near 1 ($2) per ltr thats equivalent to about $8.50 per gallon
And if Gordon Brown had his way it would be double that by the time he gets to be Prime Minister.

What kills me is that the Lions share of the price is in taxes howz that for government profiteering?
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Old 04-26-2007, 10:33 AM   #41
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People really do pay the same for petroleum in all free-market nations since we all buy from the same sources (with some differing delivery charges) but mention high COST to end-user in Europe all one is doing is comparing rates of taxation.
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Old 04-26-2007, 11:54 AM   #42
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I feel for you Silverconnie. We threw King George out 200 years ago, because "there was no difference in him stealing from me through excessive taxation than if he'd just plucked the coins from my very pocket." - Colonel George Washington said that.

You guys get hosed by excessive taxation. Actually we are too, but not as badly as you. We're both getting hosed by greed.
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